Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #15

[TootsieFootsie]

Hi- Could Marion’s name change initials have been to access some investment under the name FNMRemakel that RB could have learned about through Monique?

That is what some are us were thinking.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Also as creepy and somehow feminine as that new photo is, it reminds me of a certain man from Europe, it’s not an unknown style. It’s a bit of a Swiss / German kind of look.

A vision of a look I've seen before, come to think of it.
Probably in photos of Swiss, German men, maybe a bit before the time of the photos, in style.

Maybe they were a bit stuck in the 70s and trying to keep that young look that once suited them.

 

[Meligator]

I don't understand the significance of RB asking women to have their livers scanned. I realize poison can show up in results, but why would he want to flag that? Any theories

I’ve been thinking a lot about this because it’s super suspicious but hard to figure out. Some random theories
1) liver function test results may help guide poison dosing? (No idea if that’s really a thing)
2) liver function test may show evidence of (small doses) of poison already administered. Perhaps for enjoyment of his evil OR to be used as explanation for when women later of feel ill (eg., you are probably sick b/c of your weak liver. Which you luckily discovered b/c of the test I asked you to do, because I’m a genius).
3) to prevent liver testing (& detection of poison) post mortem (Eg woman dies unexpectedly but recent medical records show her liver was fine. so bad liver ruled out as factor)

Very possibly none of those, but just some ideas.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Maybe you'd get good money for a healthy liver

 

[smarshsu]

I'm on the view that RB didn't need Marion to return to Australia because everything he did once he returned could have been done by a person posing as Marion under his directions eg DdH. I think he found a woman in Europe (or simply an accomplice) who was willing to pose as Marion on the flight using Marion's Remakel passport with her own photo. He has had a habit of leaving women stranded so that's what he did - whether he told her or not that he was returning to Australia or had an accident and was in hospital, it doesn't really matter. But I think it is likely that Marion didn't even know he was returning to Australia. Perhaps RB was the one who bought Marion's airline ticket and he forged her handwriting on the incoming passenger card which he had saved up from a previous trip and gave it to his accomplice. I still think that Marion told Sally she would not be hearing from her for a while is because she was looking forward to meeting RB's (accomplice) friends - Maz and the Dutch dentist - and going to Amsterdam with them re one of her postcards but MB met her demise at the hands of the Dutch dentist and Maz took the flight.

Now with Marion out of the way, RB could proceed with his scam in Australia without the fear of Marion returning unexpectedly.

The usual reaction to his buying another car is that RB could have used it to transport MB's body. His story was that it was for his daughter to drive but she was too young then to drive. I have assumed that he could have bought the car to enable him to conveniently tie up loose ends eg sell Marion's items on Gumtree or The Trading Post and deliver them to the buyer, get him and DdH to the bank each day without worrying about being seen on public transport or having the cash stolen, nobody would recognise him/them in the new car, and going to Grafton and so on.

Like many other people here now I just cannot imagine MB surviving with him here from August to October without becoming suspicious of him and phoning someone especially if they were not together 24/7 which isn't his MO. I have never seen RB as a murderer but I wouldn't put him past hiring someone else to do his dirty work. I also cannot see him selling organs to Japan.

So why check the liver? It appears that most of his victims have been over 50 and would not necessarily have perfect livers so he would be hoping that their liver is damaged and if someone poisoned them with a poison which does not leave a trace, their death could be put down to liver disease.

I thought similarly to yours when I first heard about this case. I thought MB was killed in the UK.

Here's my theory now.
I always thought it was odd that Marion told Sally she wouldn't hear from her for some time after having sent loads of communications over the first few weeks of the trip. On such a great trip, MB would have continued to check in. I think RB told her they would get married and live in Europe. She didn't want to tell her family about it until it was done. They couldn't object or talk her out of it if the deed was done. She knew what was she was doing was sketchy but didn't want anyone to tell her no. Many of his victims did this and other women who are conned.

Given RB's previous cons when he left the woman and returned to Australia. What if RB abandoned MB in the UK with no explanation? Unlike he did with the other woman, leaving her with her relatives. Still, under the assumption they were already or going to marry, she returned to OZ. Thinking she could contact him and sort out whatever the issue was. He loved her, and they would live in Luxembourg. Happily Ever After. MB didn't want to be divorced again. Think of her shame. As with all of us, she couldn't imagine that RB would be such a con artist. She assumed there would have to be an explanation for why he'd left her in the UK. She checked into a hotel and decided she try to find RB. When she began researching him, she realized that RB wasn't what he seemed. What if she found his home and turned up? This would explain why he claimed MB came to his house to pick up his her stuff. If the police found her DNA there, that would explain it. Having MB turn up his house with his wife and family finding out could ruin his whole life. Is it a motive for murder?? He couldn't have people find out. He kills her. Once he's killed her, he takes her purse with her ID and bank cards. This is how he pays for his son's car. If he takes out the minimums, he doesn't think anyone will notice and ask for ID.

For the time between August and October-what if he groomed a woman who looked like Marion to take out the 80k? He would have cleared it if he knew how much money was in the account. If the person posing as Marion couldn't ask, she should know. Maybe part of the story was that she would say she was moving to Bali to throw them off. Maybe RB has promised this woman they would move to Bali with the money? This is what he does. Promises new lives to lonely women. Women he's been involved have done things that don't make sense. He'd been controlling his wife for years, so it doesn't seem far-fetched. He also got Marion to lie on her landing cards and they thought her to be an honest person.

I know it doesn't fit in with his normal con, but potentially he'd never had a woman turn up at his house and threaten his lifestyle. When people are pushed they do some desperate stuff.

Many people believe the wife and family had to know and I don't want to believe it. People in these sorts of controlling relationships are kept in the dark. The woman on the stand looked as big a victim as I could imagine.

Poisoning is a non-violent way to kill someone. I'll be interested to hear what they find out.

I watch a lot of true crime. Having your secret life exposed is often the reason for murder. People have killed for much less.

Of course, this is just one of many theories.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Here's my theory now.

I would agree with most of your theory.

I don't believe his wife had anything to do with any of it.

I think that she was pretty clueless to what he got up to.

When his wife becomes a person of interest, if she ever does, I could change my opinion.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

In my opinion, everything he did was all on his own.

He had no partner in crime. It was all his own work.

 

[insanity]

I don't understand the significance of RB asking women to have their livers scanned. I realize poison can show up in results, but why would he want to flag that? Any theories

I have a horrific one. It was raised here recently that perhaps he was into black market organ harvesting. Maybe you'd need a scan for that?? And the location Joni on FB asked about in Bali made me wonder whether it actually is a possibility. Horrific I know...

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Only one issue with regard to the family / DdH being complicit or not - if they are not complicit, they why are they not falling over themselves to help the investigation and making as much detailed reports and thinking back to RB's comings and goings as they possibly can? They are complicit by their silence. They know things. Any innocent person who has been victim of an abuser / narcissist / psychopath, as soon as you get your chance to be free and believed, you grab it hard. Most people never get a chance, they're simply silent victims of abuse that never gets confronted. IMO JMO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Re the liver function. Maybe RB wanted to know it was safe to dose the women with drugs? JO said she felt drugged the night of the photographs. Maybe he wanted to keep slowly poisoning or ad hoc drugging women but be assured that they wouldn't end up actually dead because they have a liver problem - he's a control freak quite clearly and I imagine having an accidentally dead woman on your hands would mean instantaneous blowing of his cover, detaining by the police, and possibly life in prison. He wasn't with the women consistently day in day out but maybe he was drip feed poisoning them in a way that would culminate in death at some point in the future, ie arsenic or suchlike?

Maybe there's poisoning that means that a victim could end up feeling really poorly and feeble for weeks / months and slowly decline ending up dead in due course - then he gets everything as he's taken possession and power of attorney. What do we know about any women who checked into hospitals, A&E, or were found deceased alone but not in suspicious circumstances? What if Marion died alone in a lodging room or hotel but with someone else's paperwork and the death wasn't considered suspicious? How far down the line do the police / authorities go to 'detect' such things? A close relative of mine died suddenly at home alone recently and to say the powers that be could not give a monkeys about what happened is to put it mildly. They are very satisfied to say 'heart attack' or such with eff all investigation when someone is over 50 and there's no sign of a struggle or forced entry.

Or maybe he was drip feeding some kind of drug that meant the women would become 'addicted' to him without realising they were not feeling amazing in his company, they were being doped?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Quote "You dose your victim then you skip town..." :O

Why Thallium Is Known as the “Poisoner’s Poison”

There’s a right way and a wrong way to poison your husband, at least if your primary goal is to get away with it. The right way involves stealth and...

slate.com

 

[Estelle]

For those interested in the subject of poisons, I am curious to know how that subject was communicated. I got the impression that it was when G was sorting out her books and she had one on "Undetectable Poisons" and RB said he wanted it. Is that version correct?

 

[gymtonic]

Only one issue with regard to the family / DdH being complicit or not - if they are not complicit, they why are they not falling over themselves to help the investigation and making as much detailed reports and thinking back to RB's comings and goings as they possibly can? They are complicit by their silence. They know things. Any innocent person who has been victim of an abuser / narcissist / psychopath, as soon as you get your chance to be free and believed, you grab it hard. Most people never get a chance, they're simply silent victims of abuse that never gets confronted. IMO JMO

Not to be construed in anyway, shape or form as defending anything that has happened so far in the inquest, but merely to say that we don't absolutely know whether or not anyone is cooperating or not with police ongoing investigations do we? Police investigations are not like social media, WS forums or podcasts where information received or discovered is drip-fed out...unless it serves a strategic purpose to bring forward new witnesses. Some information is deliberately withheld in some cases. Keeping police discoveries or witness statements under covers is a feature of big picture investigation surely? Investigations are ongoing and we don't have access to all. Just sayin' and IMO

 

[Estelle]

Undetectable poisons and how to detect them

 

[gymtonic]

Re the liver function. Maybe RB wanted to know it was safe to dose the women with drugs? JO said she felt drugged the night of the photographs. Maybe he wanted to keep slowly poisoning or ad hoc drugging women but be assured that they wouldn't end up actually dead because they have a liver problem - he's a control freak quite clearly and I imagine having an accidentally dead woman on your hands would mean instantaneous blowing of his cover, detaining by the police, and possibly life in prison. He wasn't with the women consistently day in day out but maybe he was drip feed poisoning them in a way that would culminate in death at some point in the future, ie arsenic or suchlike?

Maybe there's poisoning that means that a victim could end up feeling really poorly and feeble for weeks / months and slowly decline ending up dead in due course - then he gets everything as he's taken possession and power of attorney. What do we know about any women who checked into hospitals, A&E, or were found deceased alone but not in suspicious circumstances? What if Marion died alone in a lodging room or hotel but with someone else's paperwork and the death wasn't considered suspicious? How far down the line do the police / authorities go to 'detect' such things? A close relative of mine died suddenly at home alone recently and to say the powers that be could not give a monkeys about what happened is to put it mildly. They are very satisfied to say 'heart attack' or such with eff all investigation when someone is over 50 and there's no sign of a struggle or forced entry.
.
Or maybe he was drip feeding some kind of drug that meant the women would become 'addicted' to him without realising they were not feeling amazing in his company, they were being doped?

There's a lot to like about some of these points. From Australia, for anyone looking at that time, only MB and RB know that MB is now known as FNMR in the UK and Europe. An undetected Jane Doe scenario is one that I've been knocking around as a possibility for a while. I did some checking on UK and European Jane Doe sites (and I think from memory others did too). I did come up with a possible woman off the SE coast of the UK at the right time period I think, but in the end the description failed on some aspect. can't remember what now but I think in an earlier post of mine?
EDIT: Here...

Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #14

Just on this bit… Maybe he said that they were going to be married in Europe but that it would take some time to organise with special licences (or similar story) and that it would make it easier in the interim if she had the same surname and can change it before leaving as it was not that...

www.websleuths.com

and here...

Australia - Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #10

Mishy, I wasn't replying to you. I wanted this person to know that a "vessel" can be a plane or ship and to find out if that timeline is what others have. Just because someone tags you does not mean that they are replying to you directly. "Tagging" means that you like a post or that you found...

www.websleuths.com

 

[Estelle]

My research on poisons with links if you wish to know more:

Thallium poisoning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From spy novels to Skripal: the myth of the untraceable poison

The idea of a poison that can’t be detected is terrifying, but there is no such thing

www.theguardian.com

 

[Estelle]

Snippets from Google search on poisons and liver:

The liver is at particular risk of the effects of poisons because it is one of the first organs exposed to ingested substances and is the major metabolising organ of the body. Liver damage from poisoning can occur through various mechanisms.

Our preliminary studies indicate that arsenic exposure, even below levels that are overtly hepatotoxic, may increase the stimulated inflammatory response in the liver, possibly increasing the risk of serious chronic liver diseases (e.g., non-alcoholic fatty liver diseases).

Arsenic can cause lung and skin cancers and may cause other cancers. The association between chronic arsenic exposure and cancer is strongest for skin, lung, and bladder cancer. Liver (angiosarcoma), kidney, and other cancers have limited strength of association [IARC 2004; NRC 2000].

Hepatotoxicity - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Thallium poisoning can cause damage to multiple organs, especially to the liver, kidneys, and heart. Liver, kidney, and heart damage all occurred in patients in this study, with the largest proportion (50%) experiencing liver damage.

 

[gymtonic]

My research on poisons with links if you wish to know more:

Thallium poisoning - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

From spy novels to Skripal: the myth of the untraceable poison

The idea of a poison that can’t be detected is terrifying, but there is no such thing

www.theguardian.com

Thanks for the links!
So my takeaways vis a vis RB and if poisoning was the case:
(1) He did "telegraph" his intentions by insisting on liver function and scans which would be picked up on if there was an investigation at the time (mistake by RB)
(2) In his "favour" (if we can call it that in such a distasteful case) ...no body...no evidence to link back to the telegraphing.
IMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

For those interested in the subject of poisons, I am curious to know how that subject was communicated. I got the impression that it was when G was sorting out her books and she had one on "Undetectable Poisons" and RB said he wanted it. Is that version correct?

That’s what it said in the podcast IIRC but there was some implication (here? / on the podcast? / unsure) that RB had already shown an interest in poisons before the book incident came to light, although I’m not at all clear on that.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Not to be construed in anyway, shape or form as defending anything that has happened so far in the inquest, but merely to say that we don't absolutely know whether or not anyone is cooperating or not with police ongoing investigations do we? Police investigations are not like social media, WS forums or podcasts where information received or discovered is drip-fed out...unless it serves a strategic purpose to bring forward new witnesses. Some information is deliberately withheld in some cases. Keeping police discoveries or witness statements under covers is a feature of big picture investigation surely? Investigations are ongoing and we don't have access to all. Just sayin' and IMO

Ah, good point! Thanks for this idea.