Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #6

[Estelle]

Amazing sleuthing here guys.
So the Roger L alias - he was six years old right? What kind of six year old needs an alias???

The timeline posted by Estelle - is this all from the NAA website? If so, is this kind of travel info publicly available about everyone or just criminals??

I put my name in the search and nothing came up so I guess it is only for criminals or other government information on a person such as immigration details perhaps.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Going back through arrivals cards..

Arrivals card for 23/4/1980
Card looks to have been completed by wife #2 based on handwriting
Signature at the bottom says..
Unable to sign and has wife #2 signature
Also noted profession is ‘nil’ on this card

 

[Estelle]

I have been on Geneanet at the willy family tree, and correct me if I am wrong but there are three children: WD,FD, and DD.If you look at the silhouette pictures, they have FD and DD as men , and ....
believe it or not, WD as a WOMAN!!! Tell me what you think!
I'm beginning to think WW isn't his birth name at all! This goes deeper still! JMO MOO

I noticed that too and wondered why. Maybe someone made an error? Apparently, his own father died when he was young, his mother remarried and WW adopted his stepfather's name.

In the list of aliases, one of our members here listed this:

Roger Lauzoney / Lazoney (convicted in Luxembourg 76/77, claimed was born 1945 Morocco but found with Aus de Hedervary passport on him)

Another member wrote something like why would a six year old have an alias? My hunch is that FD could have been born Roger Lauzoney/Lazoney in Morocco (not sure when 1939? or was it really 1945?) and when his father died and his mother remarried, his name was changed to Willy Wouters which was his stepfather's surname. Maybe his mother had married a Moroccan and lived there when Roger was born? Then moved back to Belgium after he died. But was his name change ever made official? So maybe he is really a Moroccan - hence his mentioning Morocco to JO.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

On his Arrivals card when he first arrived in Australia, his handwriting is different. No circles above the "I"s. Would be interesting to compare the two side by side.

Yes not always on WW name but is it on Belgium?

 

[vivienbee]

So when the police rang the bank would the bank have told the police that Marion had a new name at the time of withdrawing then ?

Because the bank must of known this regardless of practice and if they did i am guessing the bank cannot allow police to let family know these details re privacy etc .

And surely the bank didn't tell any fibs to cover up any facts of mistakenly given funds to the wrong person

I wonder if this is why in Sally's recollection she mentions that one of the tellers seemed to know something about Marion but was shifty about it (I can't remember exactly what she said). If they knew that Marion had changed her name and weren't allowed to divulge that information maybe that rattled them.

 

[Meligator]

During some of my searches, I found mention of convicts sent to Australia.

Their crime was being found with a forged die.

Cell phone in 1994??? In the USA in 1994, a cell phone looked like this:



View attachment 332787
image from youtube.com

My Dad had one -- actually bolted to the floor of his truck. Referred to as a 'brick phone' because it was as heavy as a brick, and took up more space. Memorable, to me anyway.

No idea what was available in your hemisphere, of course!

jmho ymmv lrr

good point. Maybe the number of one of his fax machines lol

 

[Deleted member 249471]

NAA fact sheet

Basically, we have public access rights to Commonwealth government records, with conditions of course. Some of the records become public due to age. People typically use them for history and genealogy research among other things. 'More recent' records can be made public in part of full after being assessed for suitability, after someone requests it. Might be for research, journalism or investigative purposes.

From the NAA cover sheets on both WW and IK files, we know someone came looking for those files, they were assessed and made partially public on 18 De 2020 and 21 Dec 2021, respectively.

Interestingly, there is a file called 'Migration case file for Marion Wilson 1995-96' but it's not digitised. Can't find anything for Remakel.

Edit: NAA has Marion's passenger cards but spells the surname Remekel.

 

[vivienbee]

I am still wondering why he used the name of Remakel on his driver's licence.

I'm still wondering why the police reported that no records of anyone by the name of Ferdinand Remakel existed in Australia when this was so clearly not the case (unless I am misremembering things). Even if his name had been changed again, there MUST have been some records of his previous driving licence applications etc, surely?

 

[hoodunnit]

If

With regard to his 1st wife being Hungarian. The communists closed the borders in Hungary in 1947 the year of her birth. I wonder if her parents were amongst the 200000 that managed to escape that year?

I read ancestry right, her parents went to Ohio USA in 1921, married in 1928 and were naturalizd in 1941

I don’t know if this helps: just found this:
Family tree of Maria Coppenolle

Willy David on this family tree is showing as a female (?)

 

[Deleted member 249471]

I'm still wondering why the police reported that no records of anyone by the name of Ferdinand Remakel existed in Australia when this was so clearly not the case (unless I am misremembering things). Even if his name had been changed again, there MUST have been some records of his previous driving licence applications etc, surely?

They said no passport or travel by a Remakel. I don't know if they ever checked QLD licences. Or perhaps it was a fake licence and didn't come up on searches. Either way, at the time, they were positive Marion willingly ran away and didn't want to be contacted, so they weren't looking for a Remakel.

As far as we know, authorities only started looking for a Remakel after 2019 when podcast started and a sleuth found Le Courrier ad and then the investigation was taken seriously, so... ?

 

[Estelle]

If next week, we find DW is a petite blonde woman who speaks French, I am going to lose it.

Edit: yes, I think there is a chance RB might already be in custody and that was what the 'application' might have referenced. If they had something to arrest him for, even if small and irrelevant to Marion's case, then it would make sense to keep him detained due to being a huge flight risk given all the aliases and passports.

Australia has an extradition treaty with Belgium.

I wonder whether FD could be extradited back to Belgium to face charges or did they happen so long ago that those charges have expired?

Extradition law in Australia - Wikipedia

 

[Estelle]

Yes not always on WW name but is it on Belgium?

I don't understand what you are asking? Please explain.

 

[Estelle]

I wonder if this is why in Sally's recollection she mentions that one of the tellers seemed to know something about Marion but was shifty about it (I can't remember exactly what she said). If they knew that Marion had changed her name and weren't allowed to divulge that information maybe that rattled them.

I often wonder whether this teller could have been bribed!

 

[Estelle]

I'm still wondering why the police reported that no records of anyone by the name of Ferdinand Remakel existed in Australia when this was so clearly not the case (unless I am misremembering things). Even if his name had been changed again, there MUST have been some records of his previous driving licence applications etc, surely?

The way I understand it. The Remakel name was used to obtain a QLD driver's licence. He probably pretended he had never had one before and did the driving test again.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I'm still wondering why the police reported that no records of anyone by the name of Ferdinand Remakel existed in Australia when this was so clearly not the case (unless I am misremembering things). Even if his name had been changed again, there MUST have been some records of his previous driving licence applications etc, surely?

I found it at the time interesting that they kept on saying no record of a "Remakel " since 1980 ( think that was the date) That may be why they are now at pains to say he got the drivers license in the name of Remarkel long before Marion went missing. Possible before the date they kept on stating

Did they know about it when making the statement ?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

My thoughts when they did say that was that there was someone/someones by the Remakel name prior to that.

I found it at the time interesting that they kept on saying no record of a "Remakel " since 1980 ( think that was the date) That may be why they are now at pains to say he got the drivers license in the name of Remarkel long before Marion went missing. Possible before the date they kept on stating

 

[Meligator]

These are my interpretations of RB's behaviour and comments based on Chinguetti's Timeline she gave us previously. If you have a different interpretation, please let me know.

NOTE THAT THEIR ALLEGED MARRIAGE OCCURRED THE DAY BEFORE ILONA LEFT FOR AUSTRALIA.

1969-05-10 alleged marriage date between Ilona Kinczel and Willy Wouters in Brussels
1969-05-11 Ilona flew to Australia

EVEN THOUGH NOW HE IS SUPPOSEDLY MARRIED, WW ARRIVED IN AUSTRALIA FROM LONDON TO PERTH FLYING QANTAS AND STATING NEVER MARRIED ON A THREE MONTH HOLIDAY VISA 13 DAYS AFTER ILONA GIVING AN ADDRESS IN SYDNEY WHICH WAS PROBABLY THE ADDRESS OF A RELATIVE OF ILONA'S WHERE THEY WERE GIVEN A ROOM. SO THEN FLEW TO SYDNEY ARRIVING TWO DAYS LATER.

1969-05-24 Willy Wouters, status Never Married flew Qantas from London to Perth on a three month holiday visa
1969-05-26 Willy Wouters residence 6 Godbell St, Paddington

SO THEN FIVE MONTHS LATER HAVING OVERSTAYED HIS HOLIDAY VISA, HE IS GRANTED AUSTRALIAN RESIDENT STATUS AS HE THEN CLAIMED HE WAS MARRIED TO ILONA. WAS THE MARRIAGE DOCUMENT FAKED?

1969-10-02 Willy Wouters granted resident status in Sydney due to alleged marriage to Ilona Kinczel

THEN FOUR MONTHS AFTER THEY HAD RESIDENT STATUS, THEY BOTH LEFT ON THE SAME FLIGHT TO BELGIUM WITH WILLY WOUTERS CLAIMING HE IS DIVORCED

1970-02-15 Ilona left Australia on UT2506 from Sydney to Belgium?
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia on UT2506 to Belgium, status Divorced (2)

IF THEY WERE DIVORCED, WHY WOULD THEY TRAVEL ON THE SAME FLIGHT? SO DOES WILLY WOUTERS CHANGE HIS NAME TO M J REID IN HUNGARY AND THEY OFFICIALLY MARRY IN HUNGARY WITH FAMILY PRESENT? OR IS M J REID ANOTHER MAN? UNUSUAL NAME FOR A HUNGARIAN

1970 Ilona married in Budapest Hungary to MJR (Reid?)
1971 Ilona first child born (daughter ER)

NOW WILLY WOUTERS HAS CHANGED HIS NAME AND IS IN HUNGARY, POLICE CANNOT FIND HIM OR DID POLICE FIND HIM AND HE WENT TO PRISON?

1971-12-09 Willy Wouters Rouen France, 4 years prison
1972-11-16 Willy Wouters Lille France, 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentence)
1973-01-23 Willy Wouters Fraud 1 years prison (concurrent with previous sentences)

1973 Ilona second child born (son CR)

MUST BE OUT OF PRISON BECAUSE HE GOES TO PRISON AGAIN FOR FOUR MONTHS

1974-01 Willy Wouters App Dousai "cheques without cover" 1 years prison
1974-05-21 Willy Wouters discharged from prison

DID WILLY WOUTERS RETURN TO AUSTRALIA USING A PASSPORT IN THE NAME OF M J REID ON A HOLIDAY VISA AGAIN BUT IT IS TWO YEARS BEFORE ILONA RETURNED SO DID HE ARRIVE IN 1976 WITH ILONA OR HAD THEY PARTED WAYS? MAYBE M J REID IS NOT HIM AFTER ALL. WERE ILONA AND HE EVER MARRIED? IS THERE A RECORD OF DIVORCE?

1974 Willy Wouters might have returned to Australia this year but no records can be found say immigration dept. If he did return then, the alleged marriage was over by then.
1976 Ilona arrives in Australia again (implied from death certificate) and lives in St Kilda, Victoria. I guess she arrived with her two children. Is MJR with her? A year later in July, 1977 she died. I

1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentence

1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia

HE RETURNS TO AUSTRALIA FOR FIVE DAYS AND HE DEPARTS AGAIN WITHOUT HIS WIFE COMMITTING FRAUD IN BELGIUM IN THE NAME OF WILLY WOUTERS. NOT SURE WHEN HE RETURNED. IT APPEARS THAT HE WAS OUT OF AUSTRALIA WHEN ILONA DIED.

1977-03-22 FD departs Australia again
1977-05-31 to 1978-09-01 Various frauds in Belgium
1977-07-13 Ilona died, St Kilda, Victoria of Mycardial ischaemia (heart
1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)

HAVE THEY BEEN OVERSEAS ALL THIS TIME TOGETHER AS THEY ARE NOW RETURNING TO AUSTRALIA SO MAYBE THEY LEFT TOGETHER LAST TIME? NOW THEY SETTLE DOWN AND LIVE AT VAUCLUSE, SYDNEY IN AN APARTMENT AND HAVE A SON EIGHT MONTHS LATER. DID THEY RENT OR BUY IT?

1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaucluse, Sydney
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney

WHEN SON IS TEN MONTHS OLD, HE GOES TO BELGIUM AGAIN ALONE AND WHEN SON IS ONE YEAR OLD, WIFE AND SON FLY TO AMSTERDAM AND STAY FOR NINE MONTHS
1980-02-06 FD departs Australia for Belgium
1980-04-23 Dianna and child 1 depart Australia for Amsterdam
1980-01-21 Dianna and child return to Australia

FD GETS A GERMAN PASSPORT. HOW DID HE GET THAT AS HE HAS NEVER LIVED IN GERMANY? HIS WIFE AND SON MUST HAVE FLOWN OVER THERE AGAIN AS THEY HAVE A DAUGHTER BORN IN LUXEMBOURG FIFTEEN MONTHS AFTER WIFE RETURNED FROM EUROPE BEFORE.

1981-04-02 FDs new passport issued Bonn (Germany?)
1981-04-17 FD and Dianne child 2 born in Luxembourg
1981-06-17 FD registered for birth abroad, address 22 Rue des Muguets, Luxembourg
1981-11-18 FD returns to Australia

THEY RETURN TO AUSTRALIA EIGHT MONTHS AFTER DAUGHTER WAS BORN AND THREE WEEKS LATER FD DEPARTS AGAIN FOR BRUSSELS

1981-12-04 FD departs Australia for Brussels

FOUR YEARS LATER, FD MUST BE HOME AGAIN AS HE GETS A DRIVERS LICENCE HERE AND HE MUST RETURN TO EUROPE AGAIN AND THEN RETURN A YEAR LATER.

1985-01-29 NSW drivers license issued to Chaim Frederic David Dehedervary, 4/6A Rangers Ave Cremorne 2090 (1)
1986-01-02 FD returns to Australia, residence Ye old Passy, Hazel Road, Tamborine Qld 4270

EIGHT MONTHS LATER FD DEPARTS AGAIN AND RETURNS A MONTH LATER MOVING TO QUEENSLAND IN 1986.

1986-09 FD departs Australia
1986-10-06 FD returns to Australia FDs residence 17 Linning St, Warren Park Qld

FD MOTHER DIED IN 1990 IN BELGIUM

1990-2-12 Maria Coppenole died (Willy David Wouters’ mother) Tournai, Hainaut (B), aged 76 years old Piqueuse

1997 MARION BARTER DISAPPEARED

To be continued....

confused by prison/travel timeline:

1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentence

But during next year (1 year sentence he…)

1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia

Also,

1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)

BUT during 3-5 year sentence he died this…

1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaucluse, Sydney
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney

 

[Estelle]

IMO RB has used at least some fake passports over the years so I found this article:
https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria
MORE than 1000 suspected Australian passport fraud cases have been investigated in the past three years and about 100 fake passports have been seized. And tens of thousands more Australian travel documents are being reported lost or stolen every year.

Documents released to the Herald Sun by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade reveal 65 Australian passports suspected of being forged or tampered with were detected in the past three financial years. Another 24 passports were used by people attempting to impersonate the identity in a genuine passport holder. And the dodgy or doctored passports being detected could be just the tip of the iceberg with 114,000 Australian passports — or one in 100 issued — reported lost or stolen in the past three years; more than 38,000 in the past year alone, including 240 disappearing in the mail after being issued.

Faked or stolen Australian passports have been linked to espionage, people smuggling, drug trafficking, fraud and illegal immigration. Forged or tampered passports are commonly used in cross-border crimes, with international gangs going to extreme lengths to illegally create or obtain Australian passports.

John Windschuttle, 66, pleaded guilty in Darwin Magistrates Court to using a birth certificate he had stolen many years earlier to fraudulently obtain four Australian passports in the name of Peter Hartley. The Herald Sun has been told other passport frauds include substitutions of photos or the entire identity pages, altered signatures, or changes to birth dates, gender details or passport expiry dates.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/v...s/news-story/a859397c42fae18e1b903e57ac4392c5

 

[chinguetti]

confused by prison/travel timeline:
1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentence
But during next year (1 year sentence he…)

Yes, I don't understand this either. On the police report is shows his sentences but he seems to be at large. Possible answers: its a suspended sentence, he is released early, he is sentenced but he is on the run. Its all in the NAA files. Its a mystery.

 

[Estelle]

confused by prison/travel timeline:

1976-06 Willy Wouters false impersonation, Paris, 1 year sentence

But during next year (1 year sentence he…)

1976-07-28 FD and Dianne depart Australia
1976-09-30 to 1977-01-24 Willy Wouters financial frauds in Brugges, Brussels and several other towns (3)
1977-03-17 FD and Dianne return to Australia

Also,

1978-03 Willy Wouters Tournai forgery 3 or 5 years prison (3)

BUT during 3-5 year sentence he died this…

1978-08-13 FD and Dianne return to Australia from Belgium, address 5/48 Towns Road, Vaucluse, Sydney
1979-04-02 FD and Dianne child 1 born in Sydney

I did not compile the original timeline. Chinguetti did so I accepted it and tried to interpret it.
I also noticed that there are mentions of prison sentences but other records showed other activity. I assumed that as RB did the crimes in the name of Willy Wouter, and he was travelling on an Australian passport in the name of F DeH, he evaded arrest but the crimes still went to court and were assessed.