Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #7

[SLouTh]

Did any one else hear DdH mention Lithuania right near the end of todays proceedings?? When talking about RB suffering his injuries as a gendarme? ( she was saying RB was working in Lithuania as a gendarme)
I'm not even sure if counsel noticed it???
IMO

 

[DK007]

IMO I think DDH purposely kept her voice low over the last 2 days whilst giving evidence possibly to muddle her evidence a bit or try to sidetrack the LR a bit more…. I did hear one of the LR ask if she can speak up or louder…

 

[DK007]

Did any one else hear DdH mention Lithuania right near the end of todays proceedings?? When talking about RB suffering his injuries as a gendarme? ( she was saying RB was working in Lithuania as a gendarme)
I'm not even sure if counsel noticed it???
IMO

I wonder how true this is ? Or was he possibly in jail at that time and was severely beaten up! Any evidence he served as a gendarme ?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

My take on day 2 after digesting my crankiness from ‘I don’t remember’ and 2 nurofen cos wow my head is fried

Firstly I do believe there are many things that the Mrs has honestly no idea about. Today towards the end of the afternoon it was in my opinion obvious that she is completely controlled and has allowed that or perhaps likes that.. whatever her reasons are to me irrelevant.

She has believed whatever bs she has been told I don’t think through being naive but through choice - and there is a difference.

I did at times sway from she is so full of S… to my god woman you are a victim of his deceit too.. s

BUT

then I’d sway back to.. there’s no way you have not known at some stage throughout your marriage that he is one sketchy dodgy man.

I think she didn’t ask because she knew asking would just confirm what she already knows.

Do I think it’s possible she could pass for Marion.. yeah I do..

Do I think there were lies told on the stand today yeah because of the contradictions to yesterday. Which made me think she was heavily coached last night. The things that niggled at me today:

1. yesterday living in UK was a short time a couple/few months. - today it was 3 years.
2. She can’t remember any dates and is vague about most things except for the ship dates.. that she is certain of. - yet we know he flew in feb with Ilona so that story I believe is false (she may have been there but he def wasn’t).
3. Yesterday had not heard of Monique nor Remakel. - today monique was married to a man FDH knew them.. as they visited the furniture store and were not just acquaintances mind you she used the words ‘good friends’.. suddenly memory came back
4. The various names there’s no way anyone would not think wtf why are you constantly changing your name.. IMO she knew it was because he’d done something ‘again’ - that is also backed up by the amount of moving. I mean who moves that much and changes their name that much!
5. She doesn’t answer a question straight out.. she jibber jabbers I thought that was nerves of being on the stand but I’m leaning more towards not being able to lie ‘confidently’ so she just avoids answering and then reverts to I don’t remember.
The classic example for me today was - if there was an emergency with kids and your husband is OS how would you get in contact with him.. I don’t remember.. umm remember what.. that’s actually a question what would you do..?
6. Financials.. it’s evident by her comments they are living tightly…. his lifestyle however has been anything but that of a man supporting a family solely on a pension..her answer to everything is his family must have given him the money…
IMO opinion she is more than aware various aspects of their life the past 50 years have been financially assisted through means that are not above board and she has chosen to turn a blind eye. But she can’t say that.
7. The security envelope for jewellery.. if it was worth enough to warrant a security envelope it would have had an valuation done…. It was so important to protect it..yet it was sold anyway..?
I don’t think she knows anything about the envelope nor what was in it - that was a coached answer.

does she know what happened to Marion.. I don’t believe so.

is she scared right now yes I think she genuinely is.

Is she involved as a willing participant to his scamming … hmm that’s a tough one.. for me personally it comes down to moral compass… turning a blind eye, deliberately choosing silence or to lie to protect a man of many names, a man of many lies, a man who has undoubtedly affected many people with his deceit for the last 50 years…. If your moral compass isn’t screaming right now.. you have participated.

these are my opinions only.. after a long day of lots of omg’s and wtf’s.

 

[Estelle]

Did any one else hear DdH mention Lithuania right near the end of todays proceedings?? When talking about RB suffering his injuries as a gendarme? ( she was saying RB was working in Lithuania as a gendarme)
I'm not even sure if counsel noticed it???
IMO

I didn't hear Lithuania mentioned. I thought RB suffered injuries in his 20s in Belgium gendarmerie.

 

[ikarka]

Gosh I have to go to bed soon...

But one more piece of sleuthing. In an attempt to look at passenger records, I believe I have found the address of DdH's parents in the 60s and 70s. I am pretty confident it is them based on several records I found.

They lived in the suburb of Vaucluse, NSW and their occupations were listed as Company Director & Company Secretary and the address is linked to a development company which I suspect they owned. As I understand it, Vaucluse is one of the most expensive areas in Australia. The address they used to live at (unclear if the house has been rebuilt but it doesn't look super modern) most recently sold for $7.5million.

I wonder if RB found out about this and it was one of the reasons he pursued/stayed with DdH over all the years.

It also makes me even more suspicious of DdH playing dumb when it came to being a director/shareholder in the coin company. It stood out to me that she seemed very ignorant of company structures - I'm less inclined to believe that if her parents had a Pty Ltd company themselves.

Extra - their last address appears to have been in Narrabeen, another expensive Sydney area where houses appear to sell for around $3 - 5 million.

 

[mishy66]

My take on day 2 after digesting my crankiness from ‘I don’t remember’ and 2 nurofen cos wow my head is fried

Firstly I do believe there are many things that the Mrs has honestly no idea about. Today towards the end of the afternoon it was in my opinion obvious that she is completely controlled and has allowed that or perhaps likes that.. whatever her reasons are to me irrelevant.

She has believed whatever bs she has been told I don’t think through being naive but through choice - and there is a difference.

I did at times sway from she is so full of S… to my god woman you are a victim of his deceit too.. s

BUT

then I’d sway back to.. there’s no way you have not known at some stage throughout your marriage that he is one sketchy dodgy man.

I think she didn’t ask because she knew asking would just confirm what she already knows.

Do I think it’s possible she could pass for Marion.. yeah I do..

Do I think there were lies told on the stand today yeah because of the contradictions to yesterday. Which made me think she was heavily coached last night. The things that niggled at me today:

1. yesterday living in UK was a short time a couple/few months. - today it was 3 years.
2. She can’t remember any dates and is vague about most things except for the ship dates.. that she is certain of. - yet we know he flew in feb with Ilona so that story I believe is false (she may have been there but he def wasn’t).
3. Yesterday had not heard of Monique nor Remakel. - today monique was married to a man FDH knew them.. as they visited the furniture store and were not just acquaintances mind you she used the words ‘good friends’.. suddenly memory came back
4. The various names there’s no way anyone would not think wtf why are you constantly changing your name.. IMO she knew it was because he’d done something ‘again’ - that is also backed up by the amount of moving. I mean who moves that much and changes their name that much!
5. She doesn’t answer a question straight out.. she jibber jabbers I thought that was nerves of being on the stand but I’m leaning more towards not being able to lie ‘confidently’ so she just avoids answering and then reverts to I don’t remember.
The classic example for me today was - if there was an emergency with kids and your husband is OS how would you get in contact with him.. I don’t remember.. umm remember what.. that’s actually a question what would you do..?
6. Financials.. it’s evident by her comments they are living tightly…. his lifestyle however has been anything but that of a man supporting a family solely on a pension..her answer to everything is his family must have given him the money…
IMO opinion she is more than aware various aspects of their life the past 50 years have been financially assisted through means that are not above board and she has chosen to turn a blind eye. But she can’t say that.
7. The security envelope for jewellery.. if it was worth enough to warrant a security envelope it would have had an valuation done…. It was so important to protect it..yet it was sold anyway..?
I don’t think she knows anything about the envelope nor what was in it - that was a coached answer.

does she know what happened to Marion.. I don’t believe so.

is she scared right now yes I think she genuinely is.

Is she involved as a willing participant to his scamming … hmm that’s a tough one.. for me personally it comes down to moral compass… turning a blind eye, deliberately choosing silence or to lie to protect a man of many names, a man of many lies, a man who has undoubtedly affected many people with his deceit for the last 50 years…. If your moral compass isn’t screaming right now.. you have participated.

these are my opinions only.. after a long day of lots of omg’s and wtf’s.

This sums up completely my thoughts the past few days too! Could not have written it any better. It is exactly what I also believe and yes my head hurts just trying to untangle this saga!

 

[mishy66]

Gosh I have to go to bed soon...

But one more piece of sleuthing. In an attempt to look at passenger records, I believe I have found the address of DdH's parents in the 60s and 70s. I am pretty confident it is them based on several records I found.

They lived in the suburb of Vaucluse, NSW and their occupations were listed as Company Director & Company Secretary and the address is linked to a development company which I suspect they owned. As I understand it, Vaucluse is one of the most expensive areas in Australia. The address they used to live at (unclear if the house has been rebuilt but it doesn't look super modern) most recently sold for $7.5million.

I wonder if RB found out about this and it was one of the reasons he pursued/stayed with DdH over all the years.

It also makes me even more suspicious of DdH playing dumb when it came to being a director/shareholder in the coin company. It stood out to me that she seemed very ignorant of company structures - I'm less inclined to believe that if her parents had a Pty Ltd company themselves.

Extra - their last address appears to have been in Narrabeen, another expensive Sydney area where houses appear to sell for around $3 - 5 million.

GREAT sleuthing!!!!

 

[Estelle]

Gosh I have to go to bed soon...

But one more piece of sleuthing. In an attempt to look at passenger records, I believe I have found the address of DdH's parents in the 60s and 70s. I am pretty confident it is them based on several records I found.

They lived in the suburb of Vaucluse, NSW and their occupations were listed as Company Director & Company Secretary and the address is linked to a development company which I suspect they owned. As I understand it, Vaucluse is one of the most expensive areas in Australia. The address they used to live at (unclear if the house has been rebuilt but it doesn't look super modern) most recently sold for $7.5million.

I wonder if RB found out about this and it was one of the reasons he pursued/stayed with DdH over all the years.

It also makes me even more suspicious of DdH playing dumb when it came to being a director/shareholder in the coin company. It stood out to me that she seemed very ignorant of company structures - I'm less inclined to believe that if her parents had a Pty Ltd company themselves.

Extra - their last address appears to have been in Narrabeen, another expensive Sydney area where houses appear to sell for around $3 - 5 million.

Thank you. Imagine a guy like RB arriving in Sydney again having been in prison for years meeting a single woman who lives in Vaucluse?

She said he told her that he was a press photographer when she first met him yesterday and he also worked in her parent's cafe. IMO that is where they met.

Previously, for some reason, I had thought Diane was born in England. Perhaps her parents were. Otherwise, I had the impression that they could have been older parents and they could have emigrated to Australia when younger.

 

[StrangerDanger]

I still feel like she suspected but didn’t want to know that he was up to no good.

two moments stood out to me today:
1. I think she genuinely didn’t know she was made a shareholder of the coin business. That seemed to really throw her when Smith asked.
2. She never seemed to elaborate or volunteer any more info than yes, no, I don’t know, not that I know of etc. except for one thing- when the car purchase was raised she was very quick to provide extra detail about how the car was bought for their daughter. Just stuck out to me as unusual for her.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

This sums up completely my thoughts the past few days too! Could not have written it any better. It is exactly what I also believe and yes my head hurts just trying to untangle this saga!

It’s incredible how much tangle there is! But slowly his web of deceit is untangling.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I still feel like she suspected but didn’t want to know that he was up to no good.

two moments stood out to me today:
1. I think she genuinely didn’t know she was made a shareholder of the coin business. That seemed to really throw her when Smith asked.
2. She never seemed to elaborate or volunteer any more info than yes, no, I don’t know, not that I know of etc. except for one thing- when the car purchase was raised she was very quick to provide extra detail about how the car was bought for their daughter. Just stuck out to me as unusual for her.

Yes agree the shareholder thing she sounded a bit shocked.

 

[KeenSleuth17]

My take on day 2 after digesting my crankiness from ‘I don’t remember’ and 2 nurofen cos wow my head is fried

Firstly I do believe there are many things that the Mrs has honestly no idea about. Today towards the end of the afternoon it was in my opinion obvious that she is completely controlled and has allowed that or perhaps likes that.. whatever her reasons are to me irrelevant.

She has believed whatever bs she has been told I don’t think through being naive but through choice - and there is a difference.

I did at times sway from she is so full of S… to my god woman you are a victim of his deceit too.. s

BUT

then I’d sway back to.. there’s no way you have not known at some stage throughout your marriage that he is one sketchy dodgy man.

I think she didn’t ask because she knew asking would just confirm what she already knows.

Do I think it’s possible she could pass for Marion.. yeah I do..

Do I think there were lies told on the stand today yeah because of the contradictions to yesterday. Which made me think she was heavily coached last night. The things that niggled at me today:

1. yesterday living in UK was a short time a couple/few months. - today it was 3 years.
2. She can’t remember any dates and is vague about most things except for the ship dates.. that she is certain of. - yet we know he flew in feb with Ilona so that story I believe is false (she may have been there but he def wasn’t).
3. Yesterday had not heard of Monique nor Remakel. - today monique was married to a man FDH knew them.. as they visited the furniture store and were not just acquaintances mind you she used the words ‘good friends’.. suddenly memory came back
4. The various names there’s no way anyone would not think wtf why are you constantly changing your name.. IMO she knew it was because he’d done something ‘again’ - that is also backed up by the amount of moving. I mean who moves that much and changes their name that much!
5. She doesn’t answer a question straight out.. she jibber jabbers I thought that was nerves of being on the stand but I’m leaning more towards not being able to lie ‘confidently’ so she just avoids answering and then reverts to I don’t remember.
The classic example for me today was - if there was an emergency with kids and your husband is OS how would you get in contact with him.. I don’t remember.. umm remember what.. that’s actually a question what would you do..?
6. Financials.. it’s evident by her comments they are living tightly…. his lifestyle however has been anything but that of a man supporting a family solely on a pension..her answer to everything is his family must have given him the money…
IMO opinion she is more than aware various aspects of their life the past 50 years have been financially assisted through means that are not above board and she has chosen to turn a blind eye. But she can’t say that.
7. The security envelope for jewellery.. if it was worth enough to warrant a security envelope it would have had an valuation done…. It was so important to protect it..yet it was sold anyway..?
I don’t think she knows anything about the envelope nor what was in it - that was a coached answer.

does she know what happened to Marion.. I don’t believe so.

is she scared right now yes I think she genuinely is.

Is she involved as a willing participant to his scamming … hmm that’s a tough one.. for me personally it comes down to moral compass… turning a blind eye, deliberately choosing silence or to lie to protect a man of many names, a man of many lies, a man who has undoubtedly affected many people with his deceit for the last 50 years…. If your moral compass isn’t screaming right now.. you have participated.

these are my opinions only.. after a long day of lots of omg’s and wtf’s.

Love your analysis! Very intriguing indeed.

 

[CrowGirl87]

My take on day 2 after digesting my crankiness from ‘I don’t remember’ and 2 nurofen cos wow my head is fried

Firstly I do believe there are many things that the Mrs has honestly no idea about. Today towards the end of the afternoon it was in my opinion obvious that she is completely controlled and has allowed that or perhaps likes that.. whatever her reasons are to me irrelevant.

She has believed whatever bs she has been told I don’t think through being naive but through choice - and there is a difference.

I did at times sway from she is so full of S… to my god woman you are a victim of his deceit too.. s

BUT

then I’d sway back to.. there’s no way you have not known at some stage throughout your marriage that he is one sketchy dodgy man.

I think she didn’t ask because she knew asking would just confirm what she already knows.

Do I think it’s possible she could pass for Marion.. yeah I do..

Do I think there were lies told on the stand today yeah because of the contradictions to yesterday. Which made me think she was heavily coached last night. The things that niggled at me today:

1. yesterday living in UK was a short time a couple/few months. - today it was 3 years.
2. She can’t remember any dates and is vague about most things except for the ship dates.. that she is certain of. - yet we know he flew in feb with Ilona so that story I believe is false (she may have been there but he def wasn’t).
3. Yesterday had not heard of Monique nor Remakel. - today monique was married to a man FDH knew them.. as they visited the furniture store and were not just acquaintances mind you she used the words ‘good friends’.. suddenly memory came back
4. The various names there’s no way anyone would not think wtf why are you constantly changing your name.. IMO she knew it was because he’d done something ‘again’ - that is also backed up by the amount of moving. I mean who moves that much and changes their name that much!
5. She doesn’t answer a question straight out.. she jibber jabbers I thought that was nerves of being on the stand but I’m leaning more towards not being able to lie ‘confidently’ so she just avoids answering and then reverts to I don’t remember.
The classic example for me today was - if there was an emergency with kids and your husband is OS how would you get in contact with him.. I don’t remember.. umm remember what.. that’s actually a question what would you do..?
6. Financials.. it’s evident by her comments they are living tightly…. his lifestyle however has been anything but that of a man supporting a family solely on a pension..her answer to everything is his family must have given him the money…
IMO opinion she is more than aware various aspects of their life the past 50 years have been financially assisted through means that are not above board and she has chosen to turn a blind eye. But she can’t say that.
7. The security envelope for jewellery.. if it was worth enough to warrant a security envelope it would have had an valuation done…. It was so important to protect it..yet it was sold anyway..?
I don’t think she knows anything about the envelope nor what was in it - that was a coached answer.

does she know what happened to Marion.. I don’t believe so.

is she scared right now yes I think she genuinely is.

Is she involved as a willing participant to his scamming … hmm that’s a tough one.. for me personally it comes down to moral compass… turning a blind eye, deliberately choosing silence or to lie to protect a man of many names, a man of many lies, a man who has undoubtedly affected many people with his deceit for the last 50 years…. If your moral compass isn’t screaming right now.. you have participated.

these are my opinions only.. after a long day of lots of omg’s and wtf’s.

Brilliantly summed up.

Another inconsistency I noticed was during her answers as to whether she had ever witnessed a large sum of money being deposited into their bank account and she responded awkwardly "no, why?" Which was out of character from the rest of her replies.

Imo she has turned a blind eye as it's "easier" than facing the truth that the man she married is a complete fraud and caused so much pain to so many.

 

[Estelle]

I still feel like she suspected but didn’t want to know that he was up to no good.

two moments stood out to me today:
1. I think she genuinely didn’t know she was made a shareholder of the coin business. That seemed to really throw her when Smith asked.
2. She never seemed to elaborate or volunteer any more info than yes, no, I don’t know, not that I know of etc. except for one thing- when the car purchase was raised she was very quick to provide extra detail about how the car was bought for their daughter. Just stuck out to me as unusual for her.

She was a Director of the Company and, as far as I know, you are then a Shareholder as well.

Their planned lie about the car was to be that it was bought for their daughter to drive to school. But my immediate thought on that was that her daughter might have been too young then to be able to attain a drivers licence in 1997. Daughter was born in April, 1981 so in August, 1997, she would have only been 16yo.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Brilliantly summed up.

Another inconsistency I noticed was during her answers as to whether she had ever witnessed a large sum of money being deposited into their bank account and she responded awkwardly "no, why?" Which was out of character from the rest of her replies.

Imo she has turned a blind eye as it's "easier" than facing the truth that the man she married is a complete fraud and caused so much pain to so many.

Omg I forgot about that! So out of character..to the rest of her answers not just with words, voice louder and it was like she woke up for a second..
Fishing perhaps.. ? Don’t recall her saying why? To anything today except that.

 

[poppypopcorn]

I watched a bit of Mrs DeH's testimony today - I am in the UK so caught up with what she had to say this morning. She reminds me of Elizabeth Holmes in the Theranos case - I don't know, I don't remember, I don't recall, perhaps, maybe. Does not ring true at all. I mean, if you asked me straight out when my grandmother died I wouldn't know. But I would remember that it was during my summer break from Uni, and where I was working at the time, so could narrow it to June-August 1992. She was hugely vague even to the decade things happened.

Agree that the move from Ballina to Wollongbar is significant as the lawyer kept pressing for a reason and all she could come up with was "it was a nice house".

I am not sure that I believe she was a co-conspirator, but most certainly knew something very dodgy was going on and chose to turn a blind eye. She knew that they were both on disability pensions (least said about that the better) yet there was still enough money for extended stays in Europe? Without even a reason about perhaps the Belgian family being loaded or whatever.

Also on the repeated questioning on Tournai/Lille - Yes Tournai is in Belgium and Lille is in France. But the two places are only 25 miles apart. It's the nearest big city. Lille is far closer to Tournai than Brussels. So when Dianne said that family lived in the Tournai area she could well mean over the border into France. Tournai is only 5 miles from the border. Lille is also the place where the Eurostar trains arrive from Ashford in Kent.

Mr Ramekel - I don't think the fact that he was friends with Ric/Willy is sinister. Confidence tricksters are affable and friendly. They form friendships easily and repeatedly. It's how they do what they do. Also on the "Tiffany lamp" thing, I thought it was established that it was a sort of "that's the sort of thing Marion would have liked" rather than "that is identical to Marion's lamp".

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

She was a Director of the Company and, as far as I know, you are then a Shareholder as well.

Their planned lie about the car was to be that it was bought for their daughter to drive to school. But my immediate thought on that was that her daughter might have been too young then to be able to attain a drivers licence in 1997. Daughter was born in April, 1981 so in August, 1997, she would have only been 16yo.

Yes and she said the car was for her to get to work… (the work wasn’t that loud and I think someone spoke over it) but at the time I thought work drive ? She was 16 at that property as we had heard that earlier.

 

[StrangerDanger]

Brilliantly summed up.

Another inconsistency I noticed was during her answers as to whether she had ever witnessed a large sum of money being deposited into their bank account and she responded awkwardly "no, why?" Which was out of character from the rest of her replies.

Imo she has turned a blind eye as it's "easier" than facing the truth that the man she married is a complete fraud and caused so much pain to so many.

Interesting! I thought I must have misheard her say ‘why’ but I think you’re right. Casseldon was really pushing this question over and over and sounded like he was incredulous at her answer that she had never seen large sums deposited.

It was a strange way they lived- not working, relying on a pension, but having a hobby that would have cost money (coin buying), travelling overseas and interstate a lot… for someone who didn’t work, it also didn’t sound like he was that involved with the kids, Eg. She did all the school transports.

 

[FullMinder]

DdH is asked for the reason she and RB moved around in the mid 90s to mid 00s. All of them are very specific, except one...
--They bought a house in Tasmania and lived there for three years until 1996 - the given reason was that she had an uncle who lived there and it was a cooler climate.
--In 1996, they moved to Ballina (16 Harold Cres) - for the kids to complete high school.
--Then at the end of 1996, they moved to Wollongbar for 12 months - the reason given is she can't remember why and that there was no specific reason.
--At the end of 1997, they moved to The Terrace back in Ballina - implied reason is daughter is still in year 11 though she is not directly asked. Casseldon is more interested in the reason for leaving Ballina, not returning.
--Then they moved in 2001 to a town in Sydney that starts with an R (I think) - reason given was to be closer to their daughter who had gone there to work.
--Then they moved to Cessnock - reason was her sister was there and they didn't want to stay in Sydney anymore.
--Then to Melbourne because their son was in university down there.
--Then they went to Miami, Queensland because their son was working up there after he finished Uni.