Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #7

[TootsieFootsie]

They sure did move a lot.

 

[centred]

[

My take on day 2 after digesting my crankiness from ‘I don’t remember’ and 2 nurofen cos wow my head is fried

Firstly I do believe there are many things that the Mrs has honestly no idea about. Today towards the end of the afternoon it was in my opinion obvious that she is completely controlled and has allowed that or perhaps likes that.. whatever her reasons are to me irrelevant.

She has believed whatever bs she has been told I don’t think through being naive but through choice - and there is a difference.

I did at times sway from she is so full of S… to my god woman you are a victim of his deceit too.. s

BUT

then I’d sway back to.. there’s no way you have not known at some stage throughout your marriage that he is one sketchy dodgy man.

I think she didn’t ask because she knew asking would just confirm what she already knows.

Do I think it’s possible she could pass for Marion.. yeah I do..

Do I think there were lies told on the stand today yeah because of the contradictions to yesterday. Which made me think she was heavily coached last night. The things that niggled at me today:

1. yesterday living in UK was a short time a couple/few months. - today it was 3 years.
2. She can’t remember any dates and is vague about most things except for the ship dates.. that she is certain of. - yet we know he flew in feb with Ilona so that story I believe is false (she may have been there but he def wasn’t).
3. Yesterday had not heard of Monique nor Remakel. - today monique was married to a man FDH knew them.. as they visited the furniture store and were not just acquaintances mind you she used the words ‘good friends’.. suddenly memory came back
4. The various names there’s no way anyone would not think wtf why are you constantly changing your name.. IMO she knew it was because he’d done something ‘again’ - that is also backed up by the amount of moving. I mean who moves that much and changes their name that much!
5. She doesn’t answer a question straight out.. she jibber jabbers I thought that was nerves of being on the stand but I’m leaning more towards not being able to lie ‘confidently’ so she just avoids answering and then reverts to I don’t remember.
The classic example for me today was - if there was an emergency with kids and your husband is OS how would you get in contact with him.. I don’t remember.. umm remember what.. that’s actually a question what would you do..?
6. Financials.. it’s evident by her comments they are living tightly…. his lifestyle however has been anything but that of a man supporting a family solely on a pension..her answer to everything is his family must have given him the money…
IMO opinion she is more than aware various aspects of their life the past 50 years have been financially assisted through means that are not above board and she has chosen to turn a blind eye. But she can’t say that.
7. The security envelope for jewellery.. if it was worth enough to warrant a security envelope it would have had an valuation done…. It was so important to protect it..yet it was sold anyway..?
I don’t think she knows anything about the envelope nor what was in it - that was a coached answer.

does she know what happened to Marion.. I don’t believe so.

is she scared right now yes I think she genuinely is.

Is she involved as a willing participant to his scamming … hmm that’s a tough one.. for me personally it comes down to moral compass… turning a blind eye, deliberately choosing silence or to lie to protect a man of many names, a man of many lies, a man who has undoubtedly affected many people with his deceit for the last 50 years…. If your moral compass isn’t screaming right now.. you have participated.

these are my opinions only.. after a long day of lots of omg’s and wtf’s.

This is also pretty much like my take and observations . I am not good at the guessing games as such and am more inclined to hear everything out before i come to some conclusion or another , so tomorrow will fill in the gaps and then i may have some more idea on the bigger picture .
I am appreciating some of the facts coming forth here as well because they can fill in other gaps .

I have found on WS if i read to much of peoples ideas about what people think happened just confuses and befuddles me . i am reserving any judgement on her for now other than what you wrote here so thanks for saving me the time and i have stopped reading every thing until the end of day so i don't do my head in completely . haha

I must say though i was observing the coroner during today and found her reacting similar to what i was but she managed to hold it together

 

[poppypopcorn]

What was the story with the lawyer guy acting for Ms DeH - he was there before lunch, then wasn't, then his colleague got yelled at by the judge for being "unacceptable", and then an hour later he was back?

 

[ikarka]

What was the story with the lawyer guy acting for Ms DeH - he was there before lunch, then wasn't, then his colleague got yelled at by the judge for being "unacceptable", and then an hour later he was back?

The topic for Season 2 of the podcast: "The Lawyer Vanishes"

 

[Estelle]

A question I have about Diane is how did she get the pension in her 30s?

 

[poppypopcorn]

I think they mean disability benefits rather than an old age pension. "On the sick".

 

[Estelle]

It intrigues me how RB obtained ten passports

Here’s how criminals use stolen passport information

Passport data sells in three formats on the darkweb, digital scans, templates for creating a finished passport and actual physical passports. These range in price from $5-$65 for scans, $29-$89 for templates and up to $5,000 for the finished product.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/05/how-criminals-use-stolen-passport-information.html

 

[Estelle]

I think they mean disability benefits rather than an old age pension. "On the sick".

I realise that but I wonder what she had wrong with her to be able to get approval for a pension at such a young age? There doesn't seem to be anything wrong with her.

Did RB fake doctor's certificates for them both?

 

[vivienbee]

My take on day 2 after digesting my crankiness from ‘I don’t remember’ and 2 nurofen cos wow my head is fried

Firstly I do believe there are many things that the Mrs has honestly no idea about. Today towards the end of the afternoon it was in my opinion obvious that she is completely controlled and has allowed that or perhaps likes that.. whatever her reasons are to me irrelevant.

She has believed whatever bs she has been told I don’t think through being naive but through choice - and there is a difference.

I did at times sway from she is so full of S… to my god woman you are a victim of his deceit too.. s

BUT

then I’d sway back to.. there’s no way you have not known at some stage throughout your marriage that he is one sketchy dodgy man.

I think she didn’t ask because she knew asking would just confirm what she already knows.

Do I think it’s possible she could pass for Marion.. yeah I do..

Do I think there were lies told on the stand today yeah because of the contradictions to yesterday. Which made me think she was heavily coached last night. The things that niggled at me today:

1. yesterday living in UK was a short time a couple/few months. - today it was 3 years.
2. She can’t remember any dates and is vague about most things except for the ship dates.. that she is certain of. - yet we know he flew in feb with Ilona so that story I believe is false (she may have been there but he def wasn’t).
3. Yesterday had not heard of Monique nor Remakel. - today monique was married to a man FDH knew them.. as they visited the furniture store and were not just acquaintances mind you she used the words ‘good friends’.. suddenly memory came back
4. The various names there’s no way anyone would not think wtf why are you constantly changing your name.. IMO she knew it was because he’d done something ‘again’ - that is also backed up by the amount of moving. I mean who moves that much and changes their name that much!
5. She doesn’t answer a question straight out.. she jibber jabbers I thought that was nerves of being on the stand but I’m leaning more towards not being able to lie ‘confidently’ so she just avoids answering and then reverts to I don’t remember.
The classic example for me today was - if there was an emergency with kids and your husband is OS how would you get in contact with him.. I don’t remember.. umm remember what.. that’s actually a question what would you do..?
6. Financials.. it’s evident by her comments they are living tightly…. his lifestyle however has been anything but that of a man supporting a family solely on a pension..her answer to everything is his family must have given him the money…
IMO opinion she is more than aware various aspects of their life the past 50 years have been financially assisted through means that are not above board and she has chosen to turn a blind eye. But she can’t say that.
7. The security envelope for jewellery.. if it was worth enough to warrant a security envelope it would have had an valuation done…. It was so important to protect it..yet it was sold anyway..?
I don’t think she knows anything about the envelope nor what was in it - that was a coached answer.

does she know what happened to Marion.. I don’t believe so.

is she scared right now yes I think she genuinely is.

Is she involved as a willing participant to his scamming … hmm that’s a tough one.. for me personally it comes down to moral compass… turning a blind eye, deliberately choosing silence or to lie to protect a man of many names, a man of many lies, a man who has undoubtedly affected many people with his deceit for the last 50 years…. If your moral compass isn’t screaming right now.. you have participated.

these are my opinions only.. after a long day of lots of omg’s and wtf’s.

Agree with everything you said!

 

[vivienbee]

I know someone already kind of nodded at this in the thread but such a huge question I have at the moment is like--why? I know maybe some people are just pathological and get satisfaction out of defrauding people, but there is just so much I don't get re: the money. Did he have a secret gambling addiction? Or where did the money from all of his little schemes go?
By all accounts, they weren't wealthy. They lived quite frugally and didn't have fancy cars or fancy homes or live the high life. Yes, he would have needed money for living etc., but it seems like most of their homes were funded by selling and paying for the next, and eventually they ended up renting. They don't ever seem to have had a lot of money to spare, so what was he doing with it?
Even if he was keeping his money in a separate account, what was he funding? If it was a ponzi scheme, the stakes are SO high for very little return.
I assume every time he was caught some of the money would have been seized, but even so. It stands to reason that the money "given to him by his family" was probably from more nefarious sources, but the end game is so unclear to me.
Was living to the wire lifestyle he was living where he could be (and had been) put in jail really easier than just getting a job to pay and shortfalls in bills?
For a conman with over 30 aliases, you'd think that there has to be money somewhere, but it doesn't seem like he's ever actually used that money.
Not sure if any of this makes sense but there we go.

 

[poppypopcorn]

I know what you mean, VivienBee. They are not "flash cars and Rolex" people. So where did the money go?

 

[Meligator]

struggling to find the significance…why would he keep going to same places in UK? Is it just like a ritual he likes to repeat over and over or is there something important in those places related to his fraud?

Interesting, in NAA, I can see the Chusan left 10 Jan 1970 and arrived in Sydney 10 March 1970. It adds up to her timeline. But still have to confirm they were actually on it.

But Willy Wouters left AU on Feb 15 1970, with IK. How did he pull that off while on Chusan?

 

[Meligator]

DdH was asked today about Barry Cooper. He had a business in Ballina called Coopers Book Exchange. He dabbled in stamps, coins, antiques, a bit of everything but coins was his primary focus. And he made a fortune doing it.

The real FR had a bookstore as well. Not sure if it had coins/stamps, but interesting.

 

[Meligator]

I don't know what to make of DdH, but RB is a master manipulator and he no doubt lied/manipulated her endlessly (regardless of her knowledge of his frauds). For example, it sounded like she initially told the police that they didn't have a (Ballina coin) business, but after speaking to her husband she "remembered." More likely he opened the company on his own and then more recently said to her something to the effect of "Don't you remember when we opened that company? How could you be so forgetful?" and she was like oh yeah, now I "remember." Typical gaslighter behavior. Not saying she's totally innocent in this (I have no idea), but I just don't think RB's psychopathology disappeared when he was with his wife. A psychopath is a psychopath.

 

[TheCoolestNeopian]

I know someone already kind of nodded at this in the thread but such a huge question I have at the moment is like--why? I know maybe some people are just pathological and get satisfaction out of defrauding people, but there is just so much I don't get re: the money. Did he have a secret gambling addiction? Or where did the money from all of his little schemes go?
By all accounts, they weren't wealthy. They lived quite frugally and didn't have fancy cars or fancy homes or live the high life. Yes, he would have needed money for living etc., but it seems like most of their homes were funded by selling and paying for the next, and eventually they ended up renting. They don't ever seem to have had a lot of money to spare, so what was he doing with it?
Even if he was keeping his money in a separate account, what was he funding? If it was a ponzi scheme, the stakes are SO high for very little return.
I assume every time he was caught some of the money would have been seized, but even so. It stands to reason that the money "given to him by his family" was probably from more nefarious sources, but the end game is so unclear to me.
Was living to the wire lifestyle he was living where he could be (and had been) put in jail really easier than just getting a job to pay and shortfalls in bills?
For a conman with over 30 aliases, you'd think that there has to be money somewhere, but it doesn't seem like he's ever actually used that money.
Not sure if any of this makes sense but there we go.

My thinking was that he simply needed money for the mundane things we all need money for. I'm way behind on catching up on all the posts, but my understanding is that neither he nor his wife have worked for decades, yet they have two children. A single disability pension won't be supporting that life, surely? Even if it's a fairly modest life. My second thought was that he was additionally funding all these trips abroad. He strikes me as a lifetime grifter. He doesn't know how to live normally, have a 9 to 5 job. He needs money to get by and he gets it the way he knows how?

So, on the one hand I feel like he seems to be defrauding women simply to fund his ability to defraud other women (i.e. he needs money to fund all this travel, which in turn seems to be 'about' defrauding other women). Perhaps he liked being able to do all the travel? Or perhaps he simply liked the freedom his lifestyle afforded him? It's hard to get your head round. I connect with what you're saying, because it seems like a lot of work for an existence that is ultimately not that fulfilling.

When the second lady he defrauded gave her testimony, I was baffled by her saying that they 'didn't really do anything touristy' in Bali or any of the other locations. And he seems always to be off on 'side missions' to god knows where. Is there any pleasure in any of this? Was he enjoying the high life on his own or with other women we don't know about? It's baffling and makes hearing what he has to say all the more interesting.

An observation - the way he's presenting himself keeps making me think of the Golden State Killer. The walker, the shaking, the frailty. In the case of GSK, I'm convinced it was a ruse to try and gain sympathy. Maybe RB is genuinely frail. Maybe it's an act? GSK was extremely weird in court. I anticipate RB may be similar. His wife certainly has been. Monosyllabic, mumbling, giving nothing away...

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

As to why. . . My embezzler husband stole the most from his own mother, second most from my mother. His brothers never monitored him and his "investments." Husband had been youngest of four boys, neglected horribly by alcoholic parents and probably abused by a male uncle. Hence, stealing from mothers and authority. Pathology always has a pattern. Offenders enact stories. Any kind of assault on women (even cons) can be traced to childhood and mother figures. This is not an excuse; this is just for those who want to understand why. My explanations come from 40 years of therapy and from endless reading on these topics. Blum clearly created chaos akin to his own childhood chaos. The moves, traveling, and chaos may have addled wife's brain-- it certainly would have addled mine. (Anyone seen or listened to West Cork? ie Jules the long-suffering mistress.)

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

An observation - the way he's presenting himself keeps making me think of the Golden State Killer. The walker, the shaking, the frailty. In the case of GSK, I'm convinced it was a ruse to try and gain sympathy. Maybe RB is genuinely frail. Maybe it's an act? GSK was extremely weird in court. I anticipate RB may be similar. His wife certainly has been. Monosyllabic, mumbling, giving nothing away...

Agree!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

This Californian thanks you all for your sleuthing, insights, and commentary on the inquest!

 

[Bagpus]

As mentioned earlier, and according to NAA, the Chusan did depart 10 Jan 1970 and arrive in Sydney 10 March 1970.

Whether they were BOTH actually on that ship is another story. I haven't yet confirmed the port of departure, but so far, her story on this topic checks out. Also keep in mind that they might've named their daughter after this voyage that I suspect at least she was on.

For those asking why the timeline of when they met is so important... it's because many doubt she met him in 1970.

Firstly, it's unusual for 19 year old with choices and her whole life ahead of her, to wait six years for a 31 year old man to get out of jail.

Secondly, WW departed Aus on 15 Feb 1970. How could he be getting on the Chusan on the 10 Jan 1970 in UK? Technically, he was still with wife IK in Australia.

The theory is, they met when he was secretly in Australia in 1974. They can't say they met in 1974 as he hadn't officially entered the country. They can't say they met in 1976 as they just met! And he's trying to hide his history of meeting women, marrying and changing his name (too similar to Marion's case). So, the only answer is to say they met before jail.

Early Jan 1970 – WW and DW meet aboard the Chusan departing Southampton, UK
15 Feb 1970 – WW and IK depart Aus together, divorced (weren't even married a year!)
10 March 1970 – Chusan arrives in Sydney
23 Jun 1971 – WW in prison, France for a long list of charges
21 May 1974 – WW discharged from prison
1974 – Immigration officials suspect WW returned to Aus but no record found
12 Feb 1976 – WW changes name to FDdH
20 Feb 1976 – FDdH marries DW
23 Feb 1976 – FDdH applies for Aus citizenship
25 Mar 1976 – FDdH Aus citizenship granted and Aus passport issued
28 July 1976 – FDdH and DW depart Aus

Please let me know if I got something wrong.

I am also beginning to wonder if there is an additional reason for her to insist that they met in 1970.

Perhaps RB needs to show that he was already involved with DW by 1970, to create distance between himself and IK. A sort of alibi for what happened to IK.

 

[poppypopcorn]

But this inquest has nothing to do with anyone other than Marion Barter.