Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[mishy66]

Passy is an area of Paris, France, located in the 16th arrondissement, on the Right Bank. It is home to many of the city's wealthiest residents.
I think he just had delusions of grandeur about his Tamborine property.

Yes I know where it is, having stayed in the area for some time.
That may be so regarding his grandiose behaviours, something he has shown so much of, for someone on the pension.
My point was he chose this name for a reason. He always has reasons for choosing names, aliases etc in his life, most of them associated with someone he knows or knows of. He could have called his property anything, why Passy? Unusual name to just make up . IMO

 

[poppypopcorn]

On the relationship between Mr and Mrs Many-Names.

I am wondering if there is a huge degree of coercive control going here. Whenever they met, and whatever name he was using, she was in her teens and he was older. Potentially up to 10 years older. We know he has a loooooong history of targeting and manipulating women he perceived as vulnerable. Why would we think young Diane would be anyone different? So he marries her, then moves her around Europe, UK, Tasmania, various parts of mainland Aus. She doesn't work - perhaps she is his "carer" perhaps he won't let her. She's never anywhere long enough to put down roots, make friends. As soon as she is getting into community things through the kids, he's up and moving them off somewhere else. The kids grow up, leave home in the late 90s. She's now in her 40s/50s, no friends, no work history, no support network. She's perhaps had 40 odd years of him telling her that she's thick, useless, who would want her anyway, no self-confidence, no option but to stay with him and turn a blind eye to his goings on.

I'm not saying it happened. But I am saying that having seen it happen to a friend who went from being a confident and happy teenager to utterly dependent on a horrible controlling husband that it could easily have happened.

She has one name change only - and that was from her birth surname to her married surname. Had she been an accomplice, she'd have been changing her name too. Or he'd have been changing it for her. I got the impression of her as "the little woman at home", totally in thrall to her husband and beaten down after being told how useless she is and how she's lucky to have him for 50 odd years.

 

[Belleandsebastian]

The Warren family will know if JW & Marion travelled to Switzerland after his brief spell at Stockport County. I believe the club had funded his journey over and accommodation so not sure if the Warren’s had enough money to go travelling across Europe.

I have read his autobiography and there is no mention of his visit in 1968/69 or for that matter any mention of Marion!

Surely it will be easy for investigators to disprove the Switzerland thing just by checking Marion's arrivals/departure information.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

But to his wife, it might have been ballet but to the inquest, it became belly dancing.

And to me it was just a lady doing a bit of a dance for a man in private in her home that she was involved with.. no performing, no career move to be a belly dancer or a ballet dancer or any sort of dancer professionally.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

If you want my take on it all after.....
@KittensAugustus and @Eyespywithmylittleeye posted up some incredible information on Desiré Charles Octave DAVID .....
I am investigating Abel Wouters is actually Don Juan - How about that douzy!

Reasonings:
MC Married to - Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID B1905- D1943

WW - born 1939 - on the Gen Trees they all show he is first born (this is no accidental placement)

There is 4 years between WW birth and DD dying.

WW says he was placed in the orphanage aged 3 (1942) - so he has been with them or somewhere else for the first year of his life....

Enter Abel Wouters - no date of marriage.........and There is not ONE shred of anything on this man! I have searched for 1 month, everyday and there is nothing online or gen sites - except this beside his name on one of the Gen sites....

• Deceased - Tournai, , , Hainaut, Belgique

So I ask myself why is it that with an extensive GEN tree such as the one I posted up with over 80 000 names (and that is some historical working by that person! wowsers!), is there NOT a thing about AW given he was part of the childrens lives after the father died

So technically AW would have had a bigger presence on that linage in the Gen Tree I would have thought..
There is not a scrap of evidence anywhere that I have been able to find for the past month, apart from that deceased entry.

So my thinking is MC had an affair with AB - who's real name is Desiré Charles Octave DAVID
Born 2 November 1895 - Le Péage-de-Roussillon, 38298, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
and had no choice but to change his name after the 1934 trial because he was a highly publicised branded criminal.

This man has a footprint on genealogy trees and websites and he is a criminal, so why is AW not anywhere to be found

She marries him after her first husband dies and they collect WW at the orphanage. AND then WW's two brothers are born.
So it IS possible that RB is telling a truth, that he really is "Wouters".
He just happened to have his father as his greatest teacher!

IMO MOO

Wow.. you have my brain ticking over now..

 

[Pineconemind]

Wow Wow Wow! Back after a few days away and have just caught up on the thread from page 64. Great sleuthing & findings everyone!

 

[gymtonic]

Don't ask how I got there, but...
There is a Film Director called Frédéric Blum who Directed a Film called Les faussaires (aka The Imposters) in 1994 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109780/

SYNOPSIS
Cohn, a tubby ex-Parisian and chronic liar, has robbed, swindled or just plain annoyed most of the population of Tahiti and yet, quite literally, cannot get arrested. American scholar Jack Baker arrives to write the umpteenth book on the painter Paul Gauguin and is drawn in by the rumor that con man Cohn owns an authentic Gauguin canvas. The two men form an adversarial relationship that ripens into complicitous friendship once Baker discovers Cohn's true identity.

 

[vivienbee]

If you want my take on it all after.....
@KittensAugustus and @Eyespywithmylittleeye posted up some incredible information on Desiré Charles Octave DAVID .....
I am investigating Abel Wouters is actually Don Juan - How about that douzy!

Reasonings:
MC Married to - Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID B1905- D1943

WW - born 1939 - on the Gen Trees they all show he is first born (this is no accidental placement)

There is 4 years between WW birth and DD dying.
{...}

So my thinking is MC had an affair with AB - who's real name is Desiré Charles Octave DAVID
Born 2 November 1895 - Le Péage-de-Roussillon, 38298, Isère, Auvergne-Rhône-Alpes, FRANCE
and had no choice but to change his name after the 1934 trial because he was a highly publicised branded criminal.

{...}
She marries him after her first husband dies and they collect WW at the orphanage. AND then WW's two brothers are born.
So it IS possible that RB is telling a truth, that he really is "Wouters".
He just happened to have his father as his greatest teacher!

IMO MOO

So do you mean that Maria was married to someone called Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID and then just so happened to also have an affair with someone called Desiré Charles Octave DAVID? Do you think they were related to each other in some way? Because otherwise that coincidence seems huge.

 

[Laughing]

Don't ask how I got there, but...
There is a Film Director called Frédéric Blum who Directed a Film called Les faussaires (aka The Imposters) in 1994 https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0109780/

SYNOPSIS
Cohn, a tubby ex-Parisian and chronic liar, has robbed, swindled or just plain annoyed most of the population of Tahiti and yet, quite literally, cannot get arrested. American scholar Jack Baker arrives to write the umpteenth book on the painter Paul Gauguin and is drawn in by the rumor that con man Cohn owns an authentic Gauguin canvas. The two men form an adversarial relationship that ripens into complicitous friendship once Baker discovers Cohn's true identity.

Hey is this on a streaming service? In English? Sounds interesting!

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Yes I meant at least 1 child @Eyespywithmylittleeye

Newspaper article mentions his wife saying what a great husband and father he has been. So they def had a child… BUT what I have found is she was married earlier and SHE had a son with her first husband..

• Married 25 July 1920, Gap, 05000, Hautes-Alpes, Provence-Alpes-Côte-d'Azur, FRANCE, to Jean REVILLIOD 1893-1927 (Parents :Augustin REVILLIOD 1859-1927 & Isabelle GINET 1864-1961) with
  • 
    Jacques Philippe André REVILLIOD 1921-2000

Her husband died in 1927

Don Juan and Alice were married in 1933.

 

[Aldona]

Hi all, first time poster, but have been following the podcast for the last few years. As I live in Sussex, England, I thought I’d follow up on the Sussex connections, so paid a quick visit to the local records office today, and this is what I found in the 1980s local Burwash parish magazine.

Both of the children were baptised in Burwash church on 1 December 1984, see photo, so that’s gives us a definite date when they were living here. There is an entertaining article in the magazine from another Australian woman living in Burwash at the same time, so I am going to try and find out if she is still around, as she may well have known them.

Also I looked in the old phone books and were 2 other Wouters living locally in the 1960s and 1970s, in Rye and in Pembury (village just outside of Tunbridge Wells). Have attached a pic of their entries. I know it is a common name in Belgium and The Netherlands so it may just be a coincidence, but I thought someone might be able to check the family trees to see if there is anyone with the same initials?

Ran out of time today but will got back next weekend and look through old local newspapers from the 1980s and also around the time Marion visited.

 

[Laughing]

@Aldona , a Like isn't enough!!!!

istockphoto.com

jmho ymmv lrr

 

[Estelle]

On the relationship between Mr and Mrs Many-Names.

I am wondering if there is a huge degree of coercive control going here. Whenever they met, and whatever name he was using, she was in her teens and he was older. Potentially up to 10 years older. We know he has a loooooong history of targeting and manipulating women he perceived as vulnerable. Why would we think young Diane would be anyone different? So he marries her, then moves her around Europe, UK, Tasmania, various parts of mainland Aus. She doesn't work - perhaps she is his "carer" perhaps he won't let her. She's never anywhere long enough to put down roots, make friends. As soon as she is getting into community things through the kids, he's up and moving them off somewhere else. The kids grow up, leave home in the late 90s. She's now in her 40s/50s, no friends, no work history, no support network. She's perhaps had 40 odd years of him telling her that she's thick, useless, who would want her anyway, no self-confidence, no option but to stay with him and turn a blind eye to his goings on.

I'm not saying it happened. But I am saying that having seen it happen to a friend who went from being a confident and happy teenager to utterly dependent on a horrible controlling husband that it could easily have happened.

She has one name change only - and that was from her birth surname to her married surname. Had she been an accomplice, she'd have been changing her name too. Or he'd have been changing it for her. I got the impression of her as "the little woman at home", totally in thrall to her husband and beaten down after being told how useless she is and how she's lucky to have him for 50 odd years.

IMO I think that DdH could have played the role that you have described to the outside world and maybe even to her own children. However, I suspect that there is another side to her.

Most of us who were posting here on the days she appeared at the inquest, were totally shocked when we heard she wrote to RB in prison for three years after they met on the Chusan. It wasn't as if they were even engaged at the time, she had only known him for a few months and she was 20yo in 1971 with better choices for a husband than a criminal. I then started questioning her ethics and by the time she completed giving her evidence, most of us here decided that she was at least a liar.

I have never thought that DdH would have been RB's accomplice at any other time other than in Marion's case as there's no evidence - yet. But, IMO if RB needed a woman to impersonate Marion, she would have agreed and done whatever he asked her to do.

 

[Estelle]

Hi all, first time poster, but have been following the podcast for the last few years. As I live in Sussex, England, I thought I’d follow up on the Sussex connections, so paid a quick visit to the local records office today, and this is what I found in the 1980s local Burwash parish magazine.

Both of the children were baptised in Burwash church on 1 December 1984, see photo, so that’s gives us a definite date when they were living here. There is an entertaining article in the magazine from another Australian woman living in Burwash at the same time, so I am going to try and find out if she is still around, as she may well have known them.

Also I looked in the old phone books and were 2 other Wouters living locally in the 1960s and 1970s, in Rye and in Pembury (village just outside of Tunbridge Wells). Have attached a pic of their entries. I know it is a common name in Belgium and The Netherlands so it may just be a coincidence, but I thought someone might be able to check the family trees to see if there is anyone with the same initials?

Ran out of time today but will got back next weekend and look through old local newspapers from the 1980s and also around the time Marion visited.

Their children would have been 3 and 5yo at the time when they were christened in 1984. I must say I am shocked that they would have their children christened. I just can't imagine RB in a church unless he had another agenda. He did say he returned on weekends.

 

[ruby925]

Good sleuthing, but isn’t the point though that at inquest he was very careful not to commit to JGW being in Switzerland…just Marion?

Didn't he at some point mention JW being in Switzerland for a training camp? The article stated this was JW's third world cup campaign, but as far as I can see, Australia only made it to the world cup finals for the first time in 1974. However JW made international debut in 1965, played for Stockport County in UK in 1964 (Wikopedia)

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

I feel like it's borderline insane of RB to urge us all to believe that a 51 year old who "allegedly" did a belly dance in some room in her house was suddenly seeking an agent and to start a career as a belly dancer on the stage overseas. Add to that, that he knew who the best belly dancer agents were OS and he could get interviews If we are to believe this, we are to believe the grass is blue and sky is green. MOO

But isnt this his MO? Tangle everyone in crazy lies? Create chaos? Say what he pleases? Same MO of a US President I won't name, Putin, and anyone who wants to lead us away from Truth?

It's fun to sleuth the past. But I agree we should keep our eyes on the prize -- and not be led by his lies.

 

[ruby925]

Exactly.

IMO he used Switzerland as the bolthole after committing crimes in France and Belgium etc and this is why he was there, in mountain chalets, during the sixties.

 

[centred]

Wow.. you have my brain ticking over now..

I have no problem going with Mishy s take as it is something very close to what line of thinking over the past few days or so after seeing other clues come in ..Mishy has been working on it longer and has fallen in place for her as a more formed idea ...when i found the "passy " in the article that pretty much clinches it for me ...

However i keep swinging back and forth between this scenario of Don Juan being his father or his mentor , or he is both .

Either or either i feel satisfied i know enough to move forward and work backwards .

 

[Aldona]

Yes, I did think it was strange too. Sometimes in the UK people get their kids christened/baptised to get them into a particular faith school, so maybe this was the case here?

Their children would have been 3 and 5yo at the time when they were christened in 1984. I must say I am shocked that they would have their children christened. I just can't imagine RB in a church unless he had another agenda. He did say he returned on weekends.[/QUOTE

/QUOTE]

 

[centred]

So do you mean that Maria was married to someone called Désiré Jean-Pierre Joseph DAVID and then just so happened to also have an affair with someone called Desiré Charles Octave DAVID? Do you think they were related to each other in some way? Because otherwise that coincidence seems huge.

Yeah well that was the first thought that my skeptical self asked ....but then i remembered she was from a prominent family so he might have targeted her ...on a train LOL ...its not a stretch when i thought on it ..but like i said after answering all my own questions on the theory besides the other one i have had ...

That he was just as fascinated with Desire David as i have been ...

There are a lot of reasons i can see ALL the clues actually fit when you go with it ...