Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[othervee]

Woohoo, that's a good job in my eyes This case is bonkers!

If we count Roger Lauzoney, it's 7. I think the 2002 FDdH is also a passport as I think he officially returned to that name, so 8? A maybe 8 is practically 10, right? But now I can't sleep until I find all 10.

Casselden said that there were 10 passports in 8 different names - I made a note of that at the time. So there are only 8 'passport names'.

 

[KittensAugustus]

Can anyone confirm the dates in Sept 1997 that the money was withdrawn from Marion's bank account on the Gold Coast?

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Can anyone confirm the dates in Sept 1997 that the money was withdrawn from Marion's bank account on the Gold Coast?

No one knows. Bank no longer has records. Marion's original police file was lost.
All we know is $5k was withdrawn daily over 3.5 weeks between Aug-Sept in Byron Bay NSW, with 3 days in the middle in Burleigh Heads, Gold Coast, QLD.
The other withdrawal was $80k in Ashmore, QLD, 15 Oct 1997.

 

[mishy66]

2. It explains their daughter's second name, "Chusan".

Just that name is telling some link to that ship. Whether it is related to her family's past ( my theory) or what who knows. But that is a very unusual name to use without some sentimental background.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

More coins from ‘Coppenolle Collection’ aside from the $8k one listed by ‘grandchild ‘of Maria Coppenolle…sold via Nobles if anybody is interested.


Lot 3493 - World Coins - Silver & Bronze - Sale 95 - Noble Numismatics


Lot 3495 - World Coins - Silver & Bronze - Sale 95 - Noble Numismatics


https://www.noble.com.au/site/docs/cats/sale_95/A17.pdf
*Page 452

https://www.noble.com.au/site/docs/cats/sale_99/A13.pdf
*page 465

https://www.noble.com.au/site/docs/cats/sale_95/A11.pdf
*page 228-229

 

[mishy66]

I have always suspected that he might have collected a few Australian Arrivals cards in his past travels and coerced Marion to fill one out before he left the UK as Sally thinks it is Marion's handwriting. The flight no seems to have been added later in different handwriting using a different pen. Also the tick against Married is larger than the other ticks. I am still open to suspecting that RB forged it and gave it to DdH to use. This is just one of the reasons I doubt it was Marion on that flight home.

Absolutely my take on this too!

 

[auntywithflowers]

Sorry, my mistake. Between 3-10th August - BEFORE the money was withdrawn. I don't believe that was his plan but I think Marion confronted him and it happened. I think he might have used the car to move the body to a more secure and secluded burial place in early October AFTER the money was withdrawn by someone dressed as Marion in the "old fashioned clothes" he mentioned in his testimony and the hairstyle he also mentioned. There was also mention by JO of him "owning" a 20,000 acre cedar forest at Nymboida. Nymboida National Park is a remote, heavily forested area west of Grafton on the way to Armidale. A perfect spot to hide a body IMO.

It would be good to see a photo of his wife in late 1997. Did she cut her hair adding a fringe? He described Marion's appearance in way too much detail. Saying Marion was old fashioned, wore old fashioned clothes, hairstyle, fringe.
He tried to describe her hair as having ringlets, motioning with his hands. It sounded to me, like he helped his wife dressup and copy Marion's look, to pretend she was her. Did his wife make the comment, of Marion being old fashioned, each time she looked in the mirror, on her way to the bank to withdraw Marion's money. Or did one of the teenage children, see her, and make that comment. MOO

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

It would be good to see a photo of his wife in late 1997. Did she cut her hair adding a fringe? He described Marion's appearance in way too much detail. Saying Marion was old fashioned, wore old fashioned clothes, hairstyle, fringe.
He tried to describe her hair as having ringlets, motioning with his hands. It sounded to me, like he helped his wife dressup and copy Marion's look, to pretend she was her. Did his wife make the comment, of Marion being old fashioned, each time she looked in the mirror, on her way to the bank to withdraw Marion's money. Or did one of the teenage children, see her, and make that comment. MOO

Funnily he also said that about her appearance in the 60’s in Switzerland… I have a vague memory very earl in TLV of one of the sisters saying she was fashionable back then with clothing… did I dream that comment or does anyone else remember it?

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

Funnily he also said that about her appearance in the 60’s in Switzerland… I have a vague memory very earl in TLV of one of the sisters saying she was fashionable back then with clothing… did I dream that comment or does anyone else remember it?

Ep 2 - Diedre speaks of how Marion had fantastic clothes, loved designer labels and also had a dress maker
Goes on to say she loved old fashion things.. but no mention whatsoever of old fashioned clothing when she was younger.

 

[mishy66]

3. As a female had to go in to withdraw the $5,000 every day, it might have been DdH. I doubt it was Marion.
4. DH could have flown over there briefly using a passport in a new name in the school holidays and flown back on Marion's Remakel passport.
IMO

This is my thoughts re DdeH being used as his accomplice when needed. I posted up my theory a while back and I believe she is in the thick of it yes.
I wanted to believe she was another of his victims in all of this but it just isnt possible IMO!
No one living in the same house as him could possibly not know what is going on to some degree!
This leads me to the photograph of that etching shown at the inquest....her denying she knows it.....much more to play out here on that one! IMO.

 

[VisitorDog]

Would Marion have needed ID in her Barter name to withdraw the money? Would she still have that with a name change?

I wonder if it was her withdrawing the money herself what her game plan was? If it was to go back overseas then a big pile of cash would be an issue you’d think. I wonder if he went as far as blackmailing her when you add in the TSS element and JO’s testimony. But because that doesn’t seem to add up very cleanly it does seem more likely it wasn’t Marion withdrawing the money. The only person who’d benefit from her savings being out of the bank would be RB. Even if Marion was going to run away then the money would be easier to manage in the bank.

 

[gymtonic]

Just that name is telling some link to that ship. Whether it is related to her family's past ( my theory) or what who knows. But that is a very unusual name to use without some sentimental background.

Chusan is the name of an island in China (and the ship is named after the island). Could it be the ship is a diversion from the real sentimental link to the island? Just spitballing here.
EDIT: Zhoushan is the Chinese name for the island and Chusan the (anglisised?) name. In this context Zhou means “leaf shaped Boat” and Shan means “mountain/hill”.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Ep 2 - Diedre speaks of how Marion had fantastic clothes, loved designer labels and also had a dress maker
Goes on to say she loved old fashion things.. but no mention whatsoever of old fashioned clothing when she was younger.

I wouldn't describe Marion as old fashion from Photo's we have seen, I would say she was pretty fashionable for her time, I think he has misinterpreted the reference on the podcast of her straight out of Little House on the Prairie, as old fashioned.

She definitely was not old fashion in the late 60's all photos show she is up with the fashion.

I feel like he is repeating what he has heard on the podcast rather than his actual memories, but that also doesn't surprise me as I think fact and fiction are intertwined in RB's life, he has probably forgot his own truth

 

[Estelle]

There's one of RB that someone found but none of RB even though he's supposed to have been a photographer. I think they have been not only hiding themselves but many other things!

Sorry. I meant no photos of DdH.

 

[Eyespywithmylittleeye]

I wouldn't describe Marion as old fashion from Photo's we have seen, I would say she was pretty fashionable for her time, I think he has misinterpreted the reference on the podcast of her straight out of Little House on the Prairie, as old fashioned.

She definitely was not old fashion in the late 60's all photos show she is up with the fashion.

I feel like he is repeating what he has heard on the podcast rather than his actual memories, but that also doesn't surprise me as I think fact and fiction are intertwined in RB's life, he has probably forgot his own truth

My thoughts exactly. Another piece of his Switzerland story that doesn’t add up

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Yes, when I heard RB describe Marion, blood drained from my head.

He kept repeating her whole look was 'old-fashioned'. It sounded exactly like what GE said in the podcast, "Marion was... imagine someone coming straight out of Little House on the Prairie". GE meant naive and sweet, not that she dressed in prairie/pioneer fashion.

We've previously been told that Marion loved fashion. And there are photos to prove it. Marion as a newlywed in capri pants! In 70s sunnies and high waisted jeans! On the stairs dressed in white (closer to the time she went missing) – she's spunky and not old fashioned at all!

So to me, it sounded like RB was ONLY describing the photos of Marion circulating online from the 80s. Particularly the one from her Missing Person's ad. They seem old fashioned now (and do look prairie/pioneer), but it was fashionable at the time. Yet he didn't know Marion in the 80s. So why refer to that 'old fashioned' 80s look only? It's so weird.

That's when I went numb... It seems like he DID know she was missing as he perfectly described the missing person poster, which was taken many years before she left Aus. Did he forget what Marion looked like? Are there that many victims? Did he know Marion at all?

 

[mishy66]

The being in two places at once had me thinking about how many questions they asked him about his early days, during his childhood and as a young adult. They went into so much depth regarding his younger days as Willy Wouters.

Then there was the fact that RB could remember exactly where DdH and her parents were when he met them, at the hotel pool. His remembered that like it was yesterday but then couldn’t recall exactly when they arrived into Australia, hence the being in two places at once comment.

What evidence is there that he actually was Willy Wouters to begin with? What if the real Willy Wouters was in Sydney with Ilona at the same time that RB was arriving into Australia with DdH and that’s why they can’t say exactly when they did arrive, because it is impossible to be in two places at once.

His own timeline of the late 60s/early 70s was a mess. He couldn’t or wouldn’t state exactly where he was and when during those years, and when he did he would later tell a different story of when and where. Willy Wouters is the person entitled to the Belgian pension. Maybe he isn’t Willy Wouters.

There were a few other inconsistencies that made me think this. It may sound a far fetched scenario but quite a few things point to it.

This is very interesting.
Nothing surprises me about him now so this is plausible.

Maybe it is his brother Willy Wouters coming in with Ilona in the April of 1969 and he is really
Freddy .....Désiré !??


Ilona marries WW in May 1969 Brussels
They come into Australia the same month.
He gets residence status due to that marriage
They both go back overseas in the following year 1970
1970-02-15 Willy Wouters departed Australia without a re-entry visa.....
maybe the real WW dies once back overseas?

Ilona marries MJ Reid 1970 - Hungary .... aka RB who is really Desire or Freddy ( remembering he said he hadn't spoken to Freddy for over 30 years....yeah because he is probs dead and you used his ID
- hello new life and new identity!

Anyone find MJ Reid coming in after 1970's -

 

[mishy66]

The storage container!! - Did RB say in questioning that he imported a storage container at some stage or am I imagining it?!

yes he did, for all his coin books

 

[mishy66]

Aligns with what Sally said as well, one night her mother cried her self to sleep as they sat on the sofa, This is where the claims of "boys" came up, I haven't heard anyone else say that Marion said that to them other than Sally, but she was very upset about the school situation. You would think the school would have mentioned this ( I am not saying Sally lied at all, 100% believe her, but its odd the school themselves have not said this)

Probs because RB made it up posing as an irate parent to the school and Marion getting hauled in to discuss the matter? Remembering he also did the same thing to one of his other victims.
Sets the scene for Marion to be completely heartbroken to be accused of such a thing and he offers a way out of her predicament that he intentionally set up??

 

[KittensAugustus]

Regarding the three dates in September/October in which money was withdrawn from Marion's account on the Gold Coast, there is a company known as International Auction Galleries which began in 1985. It appears that each year they conduct a coin auction on the Gold Coast in September. Their online records go back to 2012 when they conducted their 77th auction. It appears they conducted two in person auctions a year on the GC, at the Sofitel. (The Sofitel is located at 81 Surf Parade, Broadbeach QLD 4218).The number of auctions conducted would definitely enable them to have held an auction in Sept of 1997 (e.g. auction 77 in 2012 could indicate around auction 55 in 1997). I cannot find any more details to confirm that an auction was conducted but I am sure such a company would have records of purchasers and sellers from their inception.

Here is their website: IAG | Current and Past Auctions List