Australia Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #9

[mishy66]

When I searched previous article I found a different Desire David based on the trove story and who he married.

Family tree of Desiré Charles Octave DAVID

The similarities are insane so perhaps the two Desires are connected.. and RB has followed in uncle or cousin or whatever’s footsteps.

It would be very interesting to investigate all of this. It seems more than coincidental don't you think?

 

[centred]

I was going over some old threads earlier and i came across a post where i said we had connected the Blum name to family connection but for the life of me i cannot blumming remember why or how we did ... I am off to sleep it seems Europe is repeating history and its tiring to even contemplate how these refugees from conflicts cope TBH its sad really how lives are effected by conflict

 

[mishy66]

I am off to sleep it seems Europe is repeating history and its tiring to even contemplate how these refugees from conflicts cope TBH its sad really how lives are effected by conflict

Yes isnt it sad what is happening today. You would think some lessons have been learnt from the past. but it seems not in our world

 

[centred]

It would be very interesting to investigate all of this. It seems more than coincidental don't you think?

Yes and maybe he is a illegitimate child of this one or he is connected .who knows , but the DeH father has me stumped I might have to delve into that again , Maria maybe an aunt from her husband Pierre Desire side ...

 

[mishy66]

I was going over some old threads earlier and i came across a post where i said we had connected the Blum name to family connection but for the life of me i cannot blumming remember why or how we did ...

Was it the
""Maria Katharina READ (nee Blum). Marries William Read June 1952 - She arrived in Australia in January 1952 relocated soon after to Mount Tamborine 82 arthurs street 8/8/1953 then Yurnga Cottage 28/6/ 1954 ""

I was reading about this yesterday and wondered what the backstory was?
Another interesting path?

 

[Estelle]

I was wondering who was the King of Belgium that RB mentioned in his horse accident story.

King Baudouin
King Baudouin was born in 1930. He was the eldest son of King Leopold III and Queen Astrid. On the 17th of July 1951, Prince Baudouin became the fifth King of the Belgians. He was only just 21 years old.

The first part of his long reign was marked by the entry of Belgium into the European Economic Community (the predecessor of the European Union) and the independence of the Congo in 1960.

In 1960, King Baudouin married Doña Fabiola de Mora y Aragón (Spain). Queen Fabiola, who was very involved in social issues and very active in the promotion of culture and the arts, died in 2014.

History | The Belgian Monarchy

 

[ruby925]

I have found another version of the family tree that lists WW as male. Généalogie de Maria COPPENOLLE

Of interest it also shows Maria’s father, so WW’s grandfather served in WW1. So it’s possible WW is telling one of his grandfathers war stories!

WW did say Maria was one of thirteen children and I am counting 13 on that link

 

[ruby925]

If any of his story is to be believed, it's possible that he was conceived out of wedlock, or that his father was killed in the war. It would have been hard for Maria as a single mother with disabilities at that time, especially if she were unable to work. If he was born out of wedlock, it's also possible that her family refused to take him in. I think she then went on to marry or have a relationship with another man and have two children with him, which she could probably care for with his financial and practical support. But who knows?

I think mostly there are grains of truth in his stories. So I believe his mother was on her own and couldn't look after him, almost impossible to be a single parent at that time, financially and culturally ..but the amputee part may be fiction. My father was in an orphanage, the story he 'knew' about his parents was shown not to be true by official records and by a sibling that I found after his death.. but his version of events was more comforting than the truth. Maybe hard to understand.

 

[ruby925]

Yes!! I agree. Was Ric a real person he knew and put in the company directorship? He wouldn’t just invent a name in 1960, then use it again in 2021 and not in between.

And 'Ric' or similar has been used in many of his aliases throughout, so he has been able to be called Ric (except for WW periods..)

 

[gymtonic]

I am not sure if you are referring to my post that I put up earlier about Adrien Emiel Von Copponelle or someone elses (as you mention -Gendarmerie records document being locked for 100 yrs) , but Emiel IS part of WW ( IF it is him) lineage via his mother Maria.

The sections that I refer to in my post are translations of the Introduction of the document that outline the History of the Gendarmerie (not the locked records). So, if it is the same Emiel Von Copponelle, then yes, RB's relative was head of the Gendarmerie during WW2 when Belgium was occupied by the Germans.

 

[gymtonic]

O
or japan.. very easy…
Then if he had the opportunity the next day to return he could get the certificate (as one isn’t given) and he has proof in Australia they are married.

Yes, that was my post. in France and Belgium it is the civil ceremony that is recognised by the state as official. A religious ceremony is not necessary, but many couples have both.

 

[gymtonic]

There was a post earlier today (or last night?) which mentioned that in Belgium you can get married in a religious ceremony but it isn’t recognized until you have a civil ceremony. Maybe that’s what he did? Organised a non civil ceremony and had them think they had been married, hence Marion changing her name to Remakel?

Yes, that was my post and it was what I was thinking could have happened when I posted that info. It's a possible theory. However MB changes her name before leaving Oz (what marital status does she tick on outgoing card?), and a "fake wedding" using different Belgian marriage culture as a smoke screen could only happen in Belgium. So maybe, she changes her name in oz in anticipation of promised marriage in Belgium, goes through some sort of ceremony there that appears real and is then convinced she is officially married and so ticks married on the arrival card?

 

[ruby925]

@MrsWattle
Yep correct it can be done within 24 hours. Actually if all paperwork is done it can be done in an hour! (scroll to FAQ) on link

Getting Married in Japan as a Foreigner - japanistry.com

The interesting thing is you are not provided with a certificate of marriage.. if you want one you can go back to the municipal office that married you at a later date and providing you gave proof of who you are you can obtain a copy! Boom…


Searching records for western marriages is a tad complex. When both parties are non residents. Japans marriage registry is the Koseki Family Registry -
Kosek Family Registry
Koseki family registry is an official document that registers every Japanese citizen, and it plays a role of all birth, death, marriage and divorce certificates. Please note it doesn’t register non-Japanese citizens.

In order to obtain the record, you must provide following information to the city hall where the Koseki record is registered to:

• Honseki (Permanent domicile)
• Head of family in Japanese writing.

Feasible for RB and MB to have married then, if RB used his FNR drivers' license as ID, but tricky to explain Remakel marrying a Remakel, but also running the risk of being asked for his passport, which at that time was in the name of Richard Westbury.

 

[gymtonic]

Feasible for RB and MB to have married then, if RB used his FNR drivers' license as ID, but tricky to explain Remakel marrying a Remakel, but also running the risk of being asked for his passport, which at that time was in the name of Richard Westbury.

Although given his history, we shouldn't rule out that he has more than one passport to use interchangeably at any one time! IMO I still don't think he has run the risk of bigamy if he can misdirect and play a smoke and mirrors game by promising marriage and cutting and running.

 

[vivienbee]

I actually thought the top left photo was a woman. Is it possible this was IK's photo and it was her brother travelling with her posing as her husband? This is a wild guess. The photo I have shared here is allegedly FDH from NAA records but IMO his lips are quite
different, his eyes aren't as hooded and his his nose isn't the same compared to the photos you've shared.

I can tell you categorically that this is not the same man from the other photos.

 

[vivienbee]

YES that is exactly my theory. (Ilona) Jacqueline Reid married her brother Michael J Reid. To return to Melbourne. Here is some earlier travelling to Melbourne

What??? She married her brother?? I don't understand this theory at all, please can you provide some further clarification on what you mean?

 

[Meligator]

The sections that I refer to in my post are translations of the Introduction of the document that outline the History of the Gendarmerie (not the locked records). So, if it is the same Emiel Von Copponelle, then yes, RB's relative was head of the Gendarmerie during WW2 when Belgium was occupied by the Germans.

If he’s even related to Coppenolle at all.

 

[Meligator]

I gotta say, the sleuthing in the past couple of days has been mind-blowing. You are all incredible!

My new theory is that RB was born Frederick David (partly because most refer to him in person using some version of rick--which would make sense if that were the name he grew up being called). He may have been committing crimes before 1965 using the FDavid name, and took on the WW identity to avoid detection (& was then tied to a slew of WW crimes beginning in 1965). The birthdate he used for Fredy on the Chusan makes him younger than WW. So perhaps MC was married first to a Wouters, then marries/has a child with the streetcar Don Juan (DD). I've thought RB looks a bit younger than 83, but its hard to tell.

 

[Carovb5]

Maybe another frequent traveler or personel of Japan Airlines noticed that the person they knew as mister x travelled as mister y?

Or his picture/face was known at airports/japan airlines due to being caught with something like fraud or identity theft?

What i’m wondering is: does he use his aliasses to buy stuff without paying or does he leave his aliasses ‘clean’ so he can use them again when he needs them? If he has a lot of unpayed bills at Japan Airlines and they hung his picture behind the desks (in case someone recognises him), he can’t use the airline again…

What happened in Japan or on Japan airlines?

Between 31 Oct 1993 to 31 July 1997 he regularly flew on Japan airlines. His last Japan airlines flight was 31 July 1997 when he arrived at Eagle Farm Airport, a small airport north of Brisbane. Even though he continued to regularly fly overseas up until 29 March 2012 (his last entry to Australia, hasn't flown o/s since). For reference, his final Japan airlines flight on 31 July 1997 is important because 'Marion' returned to Aus 2 August 1997.

Can we assume someone saw something? Or Someone knows something?

 

[ruby925]

I gotta say, the sleuthing in the past couple of days has been mind-blowing. You are all incredible!

My new theory is that RB was born Frederick David (partly because most refer to him in person using some version of rick--which would make sense if that were the name he grew up being called). He may have been committing crimes before 1965 using the FDavid name, and took on the WW identity to avoid detection (& was then tied to a slew of WW crimes beginning in 1965). The birthdate he used for Fredy on the Chusan makes him younger than WW. So perhaps MC was married first to a Wouters, then marries/has a child with the streetcar Don Juan (DD). I've thought RB looks a bit younger than 83, but its hard to tell.

There is a Frederick David on the NAA Item ID 25546270, open but not digitized, series A446 (Immigration) 1974-1988 but I can't get any further info. Did anyone find a departure card for RB exiting in 1971 using the FD alias as on the ship arrival?