Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #16

[BabeBlues]

Today I feel so relieved that the MB FB page has finally released some details into Ilona Kinczel and her death.

My heart has ached for her for so long. Ever since I heard about this case.

There is so much we dont know still but hopefully the light will shine her way and her voice will finally be heard through MB daughter Sally.

She needs her own story to be told, aside from Marions and I am sure everyone feels so much love toward her family.


It is heartbreaking what this pig has done to so many innocent victims, their families and their close friends.

There are things I would love to share on here about her case but her family are much more important than documents.

I also feel it is SL story to share as she and IK children are standing side by side finding a path towards closure and the end of a man who set out to destroy the world of morality.


RIP Ilona Kinczel

Finally you have a voice.

WOW! I just read the post about IK on the MB FB page. I had chills reading it, my jaw dropped, & my heart sank for IK and her children. I cannot believe what is being uncovered!

Justice for Marion and Ilona, plus many other yet unknown women has to come soon surely!

Edited: started replying to a different comment from @Liselle

 

[brjakj]

@mishy66 Listening to the Recap episodes, suddenly I began to understand the police a bit better. The lack of police records and clarity is unforgivable, I agree. But when I try to understand an Australian's right to vanish that's when I get flummoxed. When the police found Marion had changed her name and come back to Australia without contacting her family-- which I had forgotten was something the police learned first -- that confirmed to them the idea that she clearly chose to vanish. In all of this, Sally has had to suffer based on what Marion did do (change her name, return to Australia, keep secrets) and on what people thought by law Marion was entitled to do. Thank god for the inquest. Thank god for the new witnesses. Thank god for all the people working on SL's behalf to get to the bottom of this.

If I blame anyone, it's the Australian authorities who did not apprehend and deport RB when they had the means to. THAT would have saved Marion's life.

Yes, you have the right to disappear, but….

The police should have personally spoken with MB to ensure it was actually her and that she was OK.

That’s all they needed to do. Seems so simple yet they didn’t do it. THAT is the biggest failure by the police in my opinion.

 

[Nnbee]

I thought it was interesting the facebook post about IK had MC name in the list of victims.

 

[Brown Alleycat]

Today I feel so relieved that the MB FB page has finally released some details into Ilona Kinczel and her death.

My heart has ached for her for so long. Ever since I heard about this case.

There is so much we dont know still but hopefully the light will shine her way and her voice will finally be heard through MB daughter Sally.

She needs her own story to be told, aside from Marions and I am sure everyone feels so much love toward her family.


It is heartbreaking what this pig has done to so many innocent victims, their families and their close friends.

There are things I would love to share on here about her case but her family are much more important than documents.

I also feel it is SL story to share as she and IK children are standing side by side finding a path towards closure and the end of a man who set out to destroy the world of morality.


RIP Ilona Kinczel

Finally you have a voice.

Well said Mishy66! I feel the same as you about IK. I would love to hear her story brought out into the open. She was another pawn in his game to discard later.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

I appreciate the "did she return or didn't she" debate is still not fully closed for everyone despite the inquest and Sally's seeming acceptance that she did (It's still not fully closed for me to be honest).

The scenario that seems plausible to me is that she returns still under his spell (because I find it impossible she would have written Luxemburg housewife if she was sceptical) for the purposes of making arrangements to ship her container of belongings in storage to Luxemburg and sort out $ before heading back over. And something happens involving RB in this process.

The missing container of belongings is unresolved, and I was contemplating that perhaps Marion had organised long term storage somewhere out Grafton/Armidale way. It's obviously not close to Southport but perhaps this was an economical way to arrange long term storage.

I know that a lot of efforts were made by Sally to try and track down the removalists, but was wondering whether anyone has any knowledge of long term storage services that might have been available back at that time?
Is there a way to access Yellow Pages from the Gold Coast from 1997 digitally does anyone know?

Could try using the site wayback machine? I’m not super familiar having only used it once but worth a Google and try?

 

[KinseyFan]

Did any one see Sally's comment on MPMB? "Couldn't find any marriage certificate Re Remakel but we have seen her drivers license application and Natalia has an extra 'a' in it and states she is MALE!" Sal

Wow. SO suss!

 

[xdfg]

Yes, you have the right to disappear, but….

The police should have personally spoken with MB to ensure it was actually her and that she was OK.

That’s all they needed to do. Seems so simple yet they didn’t do it. THAT is the biggest failure by the police in my opinion.

What if she was still under his spell during the wellfare checkin? She would have said she was actually happy and safe, but then when it went wrong there was no opportunity to check in again.

 

[vivienbee]

It has taken me ages (after a few days off the thread) to wade through all the new comments. So much seems to be going in circles. Still, I'm so glad that people care about the case and want to lend their voices to the discussion!

I'm trying to get my head around the various possibilities for DNA testing/matching up Marion to missing persons files in the UK/Aus at the moment (I'm still on the fence about whether she returned which unfortunately widens the net).

Remind me - has Sally mentioned whether she's submitted her DNA in Aus for potential testing? I know that Aus has launched The National DNA Program which is still testing many of the 850+ unidentified remains ( ) that are on file there at the moment.

The UK system works differently and I'm not sure what kind of testing drives are happening with the 1000+ unidentified sets of remains here right now. I wonder if Sally has submitted a DNA sample here/how she might go about doing so. There are no obvious matches listed online but there are hundreds more people waiting for a face and a name.

The only thing I want more than RB behind bars is for Marion to be returned home to Sally and her family.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I'm not sure if everyone knows this but the Othram group that is doing such an amazing job identifying remains in the US using forensic genetic genealogy is partnering with the Australian Federal Police

"

National DNA Program partners with Othram to use forensic genetic genealogy for unsolved Australian cases​

The AFP will have access to specialised forensic DNA testing, not currently available in Australia, to identify human remains and develop new leads for unsolved crimes, by partnering with a world-leading forensic genomics laboratory.​

Othram - General Discussion

We working on a new case: DNASolves: Who is Will County John Doe (1980)? Websleuths: IL - IL - Lockport, WhtMale UP5213, 25-35, laundry mark "Jim 5," found with various keys, Jul'80

www.websleuths.com

 

[chinguetti]

Does anyone remember how old RB's in-laws were when they died? I vaguely remember thinking they were both died at a relatively young age. Might have been trying to hurry up his inheritance.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Does anyone remember how old RB's in-laws were when they died? I vaguely remember thinking they were both died at a relatively young age. Might have been trying to hurry up his inheritance.

Surely his family must now be rasing an eyebrow at every early / unexpected death in their family.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

. . . relistening to the catch-up episodes - MB's sister stating that her father stopped looking and the family accept she wanted to leave when he was told she was asked a question only Marion could answer " the money for the car", this leads me to believe it was Marion because I can't think her father would just give up unless he believes she wanted no contact. The sisters seem to have become bitter towards MB for putting their parents through this. . . .

@KiwiNZ this part hit me hard, too. The recap is helping me put things in perspective. It seems only Marion could have made the statement about the car, unless of course, Marion mentioned it to someone else and they used it to cement their identity. But you can imagine how that would have closed the door in M's father's mind. The next part, with Sally so desperately sad, saying that her grandfather advised her NOT to deposit the money in case the bank account was compromised-- well, that was heart-breaking.

The one good thing is listening to the recap knowing that Sally's efforts DO LEAD TO TRUTH after all.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

It has taken me ages (after a few days off the thread) to wade through all the new comments. So much seems to be going in circles. Still, I'm so glad that people care about the case and want to lend their voices to the discussion!

I'm trying to get my head around the various possibilities for DNA testing/matching up Marion to missing persons files in the UK/Aus at the moment (I'm still on the fence about whether she returned which unfortunately widens the net).

Remind me - has Sally mentioned whether she's submitted her DNA in Aus for potential testing? I know that Aus has launched The National DNA Program which is still testing many of the 850+ unidentified remains ( ) that are on file there at the moment.

The UK system works differently and I'm not sure what kind of testing drives are happening with the 1000+ unidentified sets of remains here right now. I wonder if Sally has submitted a DNA sample here/how she might go about doing so. There are no obvious matches listed online but there are hundreds more people waiting for a face and a name.

The only thing I want more than RB behind bars is for Marion to be returned home to Sally and her family.

Yes. In yesterday's recap episode I listened to, Sally has given her DNA to Australian authorities for Jane Doe matches. She tried to give it to UK authorities but they would not accept because the case had not been authorized by Australian police. She was very frustrated about that.

 

[vivienbee]

Yes. In yesterday's recap episode I listened to, Sally has given her DNA to Australian authorities for Jane Doe matches. She tried to give it to UK authorities but they would not accept because the case had not been authorized by Australian police. She was very frustrated about that.

Thanks for the info! I haven't listened to the new episode yet - will go and do that now so I'm not offering any other redundant thoughts.

{Also, re: the Aus police not authorising the case in the UK - . Are we to assume that this is because they are solidly in the Marion returned camp? Surely there is SO much more stuff that needs to be investigated within the UK, regardless of where she ended up.}

 

[MrsWattle]

Kristina put this on family search.

"He has said during this time in the Gendarmerie, in 1960, he married his first wife JEANNINE LEROY. They had a son, GAETEN, and a daughter which he could not remember the name of (and said he didn’t want to!). There may have been a third daughter but he questioned the paternity and didn’t know her name.

He has said he was injured badly during a training exercise in the “Swine Forest”, which involved being crushed by a horse. This resulted in hospital treatment for two years.

1965-1969 he committed various crimes in Belgium, including fraud, writing cheques without cover, false documents and embezzlement. "

It is believed that at some point during these years he married his second wife NICOLE RENAUD. He said it only lasted a matter of weeks and they had no children.

 

[VisitorDog]

Listening to the recaps - it struck me that Marion called her daughter ‘a kind daughter’ in one of the postcards. Soon after we have the apparent anger about the car money, which seems incongruous. Given that we know of somebody close to her at the time who appears very focused on other people’s money, I would say there’s a connection. Either that it wasn’t Marion, or a coerced Marion.

 

[ruby925]

Thanks for the info! I haven't listened to the new episode yet - will go and do that now so I'm not offering any other redundant thoughts.

{Also, re: the Aus police not authorising the case in the UK - . Are we to assume that this is because they are solidly in the Marion returned camp? Surely there is SO much more stuff that needs to be investigated within the UK, regardless of where she ended up.}

I believe Sally offered her DNA to UK authorities when she was in UK with the podcast team, ie before the coronial inquest. Hopefully that status will change once MB is officially declared as deceased.

 

[BabeBlues]

Kristina put this on family search.

"He has said during this time in the Gendarmerie, in 1960, he married his first wife JEANNINE LEROY. They had a son, GAETEN, and a daughter which he could not remember the name of (and said he didn’t want to!). There may have been a third daughter but he questioned the paternity and didn’t know her name.

He has said he was injured badly during a training exercise in the “Swine Forest”, which involved being crushed by a horse. This resulted in hospital treatment for two years.

1965-1969 he committed various crimes in Belgium, including fraud, writing cheques without cover, false documents and embezzlement. "

It is believed that at some point during these years he married his second wife NICOLE RENAUD. He said it only lasted a matter of weeks and they had no children.

I am sure many sleuths have looked into the whereabouts or story behind his first 2 wives. Has anything surfaced about them that is concerning such as early death or did he swindle either of them? I wonder how many children he really has out there, could be quite a family reunion for them all

 

[mishy66]

Does anyone remember how old RB's in-laws were when they died? I vaguely remember thinking they were both died at a relatively young age. Might have been trying to hurry up his inheritance.

DdeH father died in 1987 age 75 and her mother in 1988 age 67

 

[mishy66]

Yes. In yesterday's recap episode I listened to, Sally has given her DNA to Australian authorities for Jane Doe matches. She tried to give it to UK authorities but they would not accept because the case had not been authorized by Australian police. She was very frustrated about that.

Wouldnt it be great if MdeH or DdeH also stepped up and gave their DNA to the authorities!!!!!!!