Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #17

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I wonder if they’ve evidence he was in the UK in July 1997 directly contradicting his evidence at the inquest. His pathetic game of cat and mouse would truly be up then.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her? Suicide IMHO seems very unlikely. We don’t have a body for starters. Even when Marion realised the full extent of the scam would she have decided the humiliation was too much? Wasn’t she a fighter?

Did she decide to just walk away again because she couldn’t face the humiliation? If this was the case what did she live on? Where did she go as I’m assume Aka left her with nothing? Her Superannuation was never touched nor her money transferred to the UK (assuming it was her who transferred it). Could she just walk away from her children?

Nothing would surprise me in this case but the manner of any murder might make the perpetrator believe they could never be linked to the crime. Also pre Internet if anyone changed identity and moved property and sold/scrapped their secondhand car shortly after the crime they would probably believe they were pretty much untouchable.

Why the crime might have escalated to murder has been discussed above but perhaps with Marion he picked on the wrong victim.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her? Suicide IMHO seems very unlikely. We don’t have a body for starters. Even when Marion realised the full extent of the scam would she have decided the humiliation was too much? Wasn’t she a fighter?

Did she decide to just walk away again because she couldn’t face the humiliation? If this was the case what did she live on? Where did she go as I’m assume Aka left her with nothing? Her Superannuation was never touched nor her money transferred to the UK (assuming it was her who transferred it). Could she just walk away from her children?

Nothing would surprise me in this case but the manner of any murder might make the perpetrator believe they could never be linked to the crime. Also pre Internet if anyone changed identity and moved property and sold/scrapped their secondhand car shortly after the crime they would probably believe they were pretty much untouchable.

Why the crime might have escalated to murder has been discussed above but perhaps with Marion he picked on the wrong victim.

He might not have it in him but who’s to say depending on circumstances D wouldn’t?
The neighbours said she was less than meek.

 

[Martinie]

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her? Suicide IMHO seems very unlikely. We don’t have a body for starters. Even when Marion realised the full extent of the scam would she have decided the humiliation was too much? Wasn’t she a fighter?

Did she decide to just walk away again because she couldn’t face the humiliation? If this was the case what did she live on? Where did she go as I’m assume Aka left her with nothing? Her Superannuation was never touched nor her money transferred to the UK (assuming it was her who transferred it). Could she just walk away from her children?

Nothing would surprise me in this case but the manner of any murder might make the perpetrator believe they could never be linked to the crime. Also pre Internet if anyone changed identity and moved property and sold/scrapped their secondhand car shortly after the crime they would probably believe they were pretty much untouchable.

Why the crime might have escalated to murder has been discussed above but perhaps with Marion he picked on the wrong victim.

She could have transferred an emergency fund for herself and started taking money out for her life with RB, but never made it back because she realised something was off? Maybe followed him and started an argument with him and he " her up for good" like what was threatened to Charlotte? That's why he couldn't access her super and he might not have been aware of the other amount overseas, or couldn't access it so left it behind? It's all too messy and only time will tell if Sally will get the answers she's been searching for...

 

[gwebb9]

Again, I have been more of a lurker/observer, than a contributor. I am listening and pondering to all of the theories and this is truly a complicated and convoluted case. As Lord Peter stated,

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her?

This is the most pertinent answer that is needed for SL and her family. AKA holds the answer, I truly believe that, but his personality disorders will not allow him to give up those answers.
I was once married to a narcissist, a pathological liar, a perpetrator of coercive control and domestic violence, and fully aware of how much of their egos (therefore life) is tied up into believing and defending 'their' truth. To give that up equates to death, metaphorically and psychologically speaking of course.

This is just my opinion.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her? Suicide IMHO seems very unlikely. We don’t have a body for starters. Even when Marion realised the full extent of the scam would she have decided the humiliation was too much? Wasn’t she a fighter?

In my opinion Marion seemed like the eternal optimist.
I can't see her as the sort of person who would ever give up on life.

If she realised that all her money was gone, I still don't think she'd just give up.
I think she was quite a strong person, with a great love of life and I don't think she would let anyone destroy her spirit.


In my opinion, she didn't kill herself.

 

[sah10406]

I wonder if they’ve evidence he was in the UK in July 1997 directly contradicting his evidence at the inquest. His pathetic game of cat and mouse would truly be up then.

Seems unlikely. As I was musing on yesterday, I imagine he entered the UK using an EU nationality and as such in those days there would be no formal record. There will be some immigration records of Marion as an Australian national entering for a visit, but without her being formally declared dead, Sally cannot do a SAR for them. Have discussed this with Sally before, and helped her establish via the relevant Home Office department that in the unusual circumstances, they might allow a SAR by a next of kin even without formal death notice.

As for evidence of housing, visits, bookings, etc. in the UK it seems that this has been a dead end for Sally.

 

[CuriousKat99]

I agree RB’s MO had included romance scams for some time, as we can see with his December 1994 lonely hearts advertisment. However, and this is MOO, MB was the first time he began targeting single women for their major asset - their home. Previous scams did not involve such large sums of money, which might be why we haven‘t heard of any victims prior to MB?

With MB he realised the amount of money at stake and he made a lot of mistakes chasing this money. He then took these mistakes into account for future romance scams - i.e. he spent around 8 months with MB (Feb - Oct) but for his last known victim “Charlotte“ it was just 1 month from meeting her at the train station to abandoning her in Bali. He also learnt to cut his losses early if necessary, so that when JO became suspicious he moved on.

JMO and I’m not a profiler either.

IMO, his MO would have naturally had to change as he aged, same as the age profile of his victims changed over the years. When he was young he had to target the younger ladies, who wouldn’t have amassed the large assets at that stage of their lives, although he would have been able to gain other benefits (I’m guessing, like immigration to AU from IK, the likelihood of an inheritance from DdH’s family in the future etc). As he aged it became easier to trap the older ladies with their assets & cash from life savings, antique & jewellery collections, divorce settlements etc. A very adaptable operator.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

The issue, which has been pointed out before on this forum, is that it is not an « escalation« in that the MB story (1997) is, in terms of chronology, before the stories of other known victims e.g GGB (1998), JO (1999) and the more recent victim reveals. So until more victims pre-MB are discovered, and if it was murder, then it is a pattern of de-escalation Rather than escalation. Granted, there are question marks over IK‘s death earlier, but still speculation at this point. So for me it is this potential question of de-escalation that is one of the keys to « what happened to MB? ». If it was an existing pattern of murder, then why de-escalate? This doesn’t match the usual « escalation » pattern of murderers who start out in petty crime. If it was murder because of an accident, then why continue with the same MO? I still think that there are a lot of missing jigsaw puzzle pieces that either don’t exist or I am not privy to, that make me prevaricate on what happened to MB. Let’s hope the rolling stone gathering moss continues to reveal evidence that either pre-dates MB or at least is contemporaneous.

Totally agree. A friend of mine's mother lost the entire family fortune to an online romance scammer. So now he has no inheritance. They had been wealthy, his father had died and left the lot to her. She'd never even met the scammer in person.

It just occurred to me it could even be RB !?

 

[Carovb5]

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her? Suicide IMHO seems very unlikely. We don’t have a body for starters. Even when Marion realised the full extent of the scam would she have decided the humiliation was too much? Wasn’t she a fighter?

Did she decide to just walk away again because she couldn’t face the humiliation? If this was the case what did she live on? Where did she go as I’m assume Aka left her with nothing? Her Superannuation was never touched nor her money transferred to the UK (assuming it was her who transferred it). Could she just walk away from her children?

Nothing would surprise me in this case but the manner of any murder might make the perpetrator believe they could never be linked to the crime. Also pre Internet if anyone changed identity and moved property and sold/scrapped their secondhand car shortly after the crime they would probably believe they were pretty much untouchable.

Why the crime might have escalated to murder has been discussed above but perhaps with Marion he picked on the wrong victim.

Oh no, you make me second guess my found woman with amnesia again. Amnesia due to poisoning, i guess not? I’ve hoped a while it was her.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

From my reading in this area (again I am not a profiler either!), romance scams rarely end in murder. Financial loss, identity theft, emotional harm, rape and sexual offences are all listed as common impacts, but murder is rare (I will state IMO but from readings of research reports too numerous to reference here.) Not impossible or unheard of, but rare. So yes, that one time could be an outlier and he could be self-delusional that it was his fault…presumably lots of explanations in his psychology. As a pattern though it doesn’t make sense….

…You would think that if you had murdered, killed by accident or caused death during a romance con, and you thought you had got away with it in the short term, the last thing you would do would be to keep doing it with the risk of being found out and then drawing attention back to a previous event which links you with a missing person. It’s hardly covering your tracks is it? So that leaves us with the lucky Dunning-Kruger Effect! IMO JMO

If what RB does is compulsive mistreatment of women, he can't stop. There could be underlying psychological issues that cause him to keep doing it even if it's risky. And as you all have said, he thinks he is so smart he can outsmart the police, immigration, benefits, and women no matter what happens. And he may have gotten away with Marion's murder, which would only feed his ego more.

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

If Marion was not murdered we always come back full circle to what became of her? Suicide IMHO seems very unlikely. We don’t have a body for starters. Even when Marion realised the full extent of the scam would she have decided the humiliation was too much? Wasn’t she a fighter?

Did she decide to just walk away again because she couldn’t face the humiliation? If this was the case what did she live on? Where did she go as I’m assume Aka left her with nothing? Her Superannuation was never touched nor her money transferred to the UK (assuming it was her who transferred it). Could she just walk away from her children?

Nothing would surprise me in this case but the manner of any murder might make the perpetrator believe they could never be linked to the crime. Also pre Internet if anyone changed identity and moved property and sold/scrapped their secondhand car shortly after the crime they would probably believe they were pretty much untouchable.

Why the crime might have escalated to murder has been discussed above but perhaps with Marion he picked on the wrong victim.

I like to look at it from the opposite end of the stick. If Marion didn't leave Australia (no record she did); if Marion's assets, medical benefits, social security haven't been touched (they haven't); if she didn't turn up in hospital or morgue (which she most likely would have had she committed suicide because it's hard for a suicide to not leave a single trace of the act)-- then the most likely explanation of her disappearance is foul play. And if you agree to that, then the most likely culprit of that foul play is RB or DdH

 

[mishy66]

IMO, his MO would have naturally had to change as he aged, same as the age profile of his victims changed over the years. When he was young he had to target the younger ladies, who wouldn’t have amassed the large assets at that stage of their lives, although he would have been able to gain other benefits (I’m guessing, like immigration to AU from IK, the likelihood of an inheritance from DdH’s family in the future etc). As he aged it became easier to trap the older ladies with their assets & cash from life savings, antique & jewellery collections, divorce settlements etc. A very adaptable operator.

 

[mishy66]

Oh no, you make me second guess my found woman with amnesia again. Amnesia due to poisoning, i guess not? I’ve hoped a while it was her.

Dont second guess, follow the lead just like Sally did

 

[gymtonic]

I like to look at it from the opposite end of the stick. If Marion didn't leave Australia (no record she did); if Marion's assets, medical benefits, social security haven't been touched (they haven't); if she didn't turn up in hospital or morgue (which she most likely would have had she committed suicide because it's hard for a suicide to not leave a single trace of the act)-- then the most likely explanation of her disappearance is foul play. And if you agree to that, then the most likely culprit of that foul play is RB or DdH

Yes, I agree with that clear and logical reasoning based on the first premise, which is that she returned and never left Australia again.

Then there is the other path of reasoning that stems from the «It wasn’t MB that returned to Australia ». Despite what was said at the inquest, I still have an open mind on that, purely because of AKA’s history with fraud, identity theft, forgery of documents, evidence of him being able to « lose » his own passport several times, obtain new ones and, evidently on occasions, cross borders without detection. It’s not too much of a reach that the person entering on MB’s passport is not the actual person whose name is on the passport (for reasons covered by me and others earlier in this forum). Plus there’s his own admission from the inquest that he was introduced to someone in his early days who could forge documents (inference is that he ran in those circles and was maybe mentored by people in these »skills »).

The recent Nicola Bulley case in the UK has reinforced for me the need to not rule out all possibilities. Having said that of course, AC and the police may have more definitive evidence to reach that conclusion (as did the police in the NB case) but AC did not cover why they ruled out postmarked postcards after the date of MB’s passport entering Australia in terms of alternative theories, so we are left speculation on that….which has also been covered umpteen times in this forum!

 

[VisitorDog]

If what RB does is compulsive mistreatment of women, he can't stop. There could be underlying psychological issues that cause him to keep doing it even if it's risky. And as you all have said, he thinks he is so smart he can outsmart the police, immigration, benefits, and women no matter what happens. And he may have gotten away with Marion's murder, which would only feed his ego more.

Yes, it seems as though it’s potentially not just what he does, but who he is.

 

[VisitorDog]

Can we remember which aliases he used with JO and GGB?

 

[gymtonic]

Can we remember which aliases he used with JO and GGB?

In my spreadsheet (yes! i have a spreadsheet!) I have it as:
GGB = FdH
JO = Ric West (but notices a deed poll name change to Rich Richard). Although he cancels a passport in the name of Richard Lloyd Westbury to take out passport as RR and not clear if JO knew him as RLW.

IMO

 

[VisitorDog]

In my spreadsheet (yes! i have a spreadsheet!) I have it as:
GGB = FdH
JO = Ric West (but notices a deed poll name change to Rich Richard). Although he cancels a passport in the name of Richard Lloyd Westbury to take out passport as RR and not clear if JO knew him as RLW.

IMO

Thank you! I love that you have a spreadsheet, it’s needed! I wonder how he kept track of it all himself?!

It’s interesting he used his own (well the one he shares with his direct family, at least) surname with JO, given how rare it is. Quite a bold move if he was actually genuinely worried about his wife finding out.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

New Pic of Marion