Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #18

[HinterlandObserver]

I agree. The name and the link to Lux with MC's ex, along side him still corresponding to MC in the 90's, all lends itself to a well organised plan that was foiled when someone found the advert in the paper with him using the FR name decades later. That was his downfall. That name and his ego of a plan with his love of his life MC ( even if in his own delusional mind) , led to what we know today.

I still am bewildered that when approached by TLV team, MC offered NO information of anyone she knew as that name living in Australia.... It was the name of her ex husband and she knew AH lived in Australia and they were corresponding! . HELLO! 1 + 1 = 5 there. Did he see her in Lux when he made trips in the early 90's?

Then when some brave women came forward with their story, MC decides to finally speak out and say she was duped by a creep too. Maybe she was. But she certainly had him at checkmate. The letter produced and read to the world AFTER he had announced how much she meant to him, saw a complete turn around in his love for her, by declaring
“She’s lying about everything,” he said angrily. “She’s lying all along. She’s a liar. She’s lying, lying and lying.”

I am still wondering just WHO William and the team was that he went with and WHAT was the first shipment he sent ? .... " big toddlers are Kings in small puddles" and ..." Under a separate shipment I have mailed you your blue skirt"....

No. MC has much more to reveal IMO but it is now at a checkmate - neither will say what really went on as it will incriminate them both.

Agree, especially after discovering her own name is has records in Australia.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

JMO but in my view Mr Deed Poll himself planned and organised the name change. The name was disposable to him as it had not, as far as we know, ever been used with any of his victims before and his arrogance probably led him to believe it would never be traced back to him. To be fair it wasn’t for decades.

I agree. I can't see how we could leap to the conclusion that it was Marion's idea when she was in the company of a man who changed his name scores of times in order to perpetrate fraud and scams. Also she changed her name to near enough the exact initials of one of his fake names.

To think that Marion had this idea by herself is too much IMO. I think if she 'surprised' him, then the *shock* was finding out that she'd failed to notify and update all her bank accounts.

 

[CuriousKat99]

I agree. I can't see how we could leap to the conclusion that it was Marion's idea when she was in the company of a man who changed his name scores of times in order to perpetrate fraud and scams. Also she changed her name to near enough the exact initials of one of his fake names.

To think that Marion had this idea by herself is too much IMO. I think if she 'surprised' him, then the *shock* was finding out that she'd failed to notify and update all her bank accounts.

Yes, IMO, it’s plausible that Marion might have been keen to follow tradition and change her family name to Remakel (if she was lead to believe she was marrying this charming international man of mystery) but I feel it’s a step too far to believe that she would initiated the changes to her given names.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I wonder if he was planning someday to actually do more with the F Remakel name, like getting hold of the real Remakels bank accounts. I wonder if he ever had a try at something like that.

Or when what happened to Marion happened, maybe that was the end of that and after that he wanted to distance himself from the name.

 

[Australian Brother]

I need to know some information like why was he going to the UK for family friends or he wanted to see London city we need more info

 

[gwebb9]

I agree. The name and the link to Lux with MC's ex, along side him still corresponding to MC in the 90's, all lends itself to a well organised plan that was foiled when someone found the advert in the paper with him using the FR name decades later. That was his downfall. That name and his ego of a plan with his love of his life MC ( even if in his own delusional mind) , led to what we know today.

I still am bewildered that when approached by TLV team, MC offered NO information of anyone she knew as that name living in Australia.... It was the name of her ex husband and she knew AH lived in Australia and they were corresponding! . HELLO! 1 + 1 = 5 there. Did he see her in Lux when he made trips in the early 90's?

Then when some brave women came forward with their story, MC decides to finally speak out and say she was duped by a creep too. Maybe she was. But she certainly had him at checkmate. The letter produced and read to the world AFTER he had announced how much she meant to him, saw a complete turn around in his love for her, by declaring
“She’s lying about everything,” he said angrily. “She’s lying all along. She’s a liar. She’s lying, lying and lying.”

I am still wondering just WHO William and the team was that he went with and WHAT was the first shipment he sent ? .... " big toddlers are Kings in small puddles" and ..." Under a separate shipment I have mailed you your blue skirt"....

No. MC has much more to reveal IMO but it is now at a checkmate - neither will say what really went on as it will incriminate them both.

I have to agree with you Mishy here. The date of the letter from AKA to MC read in court didn't seem to match up with when she discarded him from her life (after she found out he had a wife and children) and then he was still corresponding with her a few years after this. There does appear to be some sort of 'collusion' between the pair of them.... and your speculations appear to fit. Checkmate indeed..... another piece of the puzzle that will never be revealed because they have too much to lose and nothing to gain...... Sigh....

Let's just hope that someone else knows their secrets (fingers crossed) and will reveal all.

 

[VisitorDog]

I agree. I can't see how we could leap to the conclusion that it was Marion's idea when she was in the company of a man who changed his name scores of times in order to perpetrate fraud and scams. Also she changed her name to near enough the exact initials of one of his fake names.

To think that Marion had this idea by herself is too much IMO. I think if she 'surprised' him, then the *shock* was finding out that she'd failed to notify and update all her bank accounts.

Well, not leaping to a conclusion. Just floating a theory. And yes, he is the serial name changer, and it’s unusual to change names. Unless when it’s super common which is often when women get married. Which I imagine Marion was expecting to do. Along with traveling and so needing her passport.

She may have thought she’d have plenty of time to change bank accounts etc on her eventual return.

Editing to add - of course the ultimate root cause of the name change is the person in question. But I just wonder if the actual choice of name and timing was hers, based on the belief, at the time, in his potential promises. I like to think that Marion surprised him with her autonomy, I don’t think she would have been as easily led as he might have hoped.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Well, not leaping to a conclusion. Just floating a theory. And yes, he is the serial name changer, and it’s unusual to change names. Unless when it’s super common which is often when women get married. Which I imagine Marion was expecting to do. Along with traveling and so needing her passport.

She may have thought she’d have plenty of time to change bank accounts etc on her eventual return.

Editing to add - of course the ultimate root cause of the name change is the person in question. But I just wonder if the actual choice of name and timing was hers, based on the belief, at the time, in his potential promises. I like to think that Marion surprised him with her autonomy, I don’t think she would have been as easily led as he might have hoped.

Ah sorry I guess my wording was a bit harsh.

I can't quite gather my thoughts to make an argument as I'm tired but I'm even tempted to go one further and think Marion may not have even known about her name change! I suspect keeping the Marion was her own input though as I reckon RB would have wanted to totally erase any clue of her and keeping Marion would have been a real spanner in the works.

I do suspect if she agreed to it, it was because of being swept away with the romance of it all, the Orient Express dream trip, etc. However, JMO but no way did she come up with a name and initials of FN(M)R and I believe RB was on some long con with this involving the real FNR. IMOO

 

[VisitorDog]

Ah sorry I guess my wording was a bit harsh.

I can't quite gather my thoughts to make an argument as I'm tired but I'm even tempted to go one further and think Marion may not have even known about her name change! I suspect keeping the Marion was her own input though as I reckon RB would have wanted to totally erase any clue of her and keeping Marion would have been a real spanner in the works.

I do suspect if she agreed to it, it was because of being swept away with the romance of it all, the Orient Express dream trip, etc. However, JMO but no way did she come up with a name and initials of FN(M)R and I believe RB was on some long con with this involving the real FNR. IMOO

No worries, I hear you. I wouldn’t be surprised at all if it’s the scenario you’re suggesting either (at this point I don’t think there’s much that could surprise us in this crazy case!). Totally agree that the swept away with the romance of it all is key regardless. I do love that whatever happened, it’s the name change that’s been the ultimate spanner in the works!

 

[hahahils]

I would LOVE to hear the real FR’s thoughts on the personality and behaviour of his ex wife MC. I also agree there is so much more to the connection between MC and RB, and a lot more reasons as to why the FR alias was used… IMO

 

[mishy66]

1st day of Aka being questioned at the inquest

AC - When you were born what was the name given to you?

Aka - Don’t really know

That’s a very strange way to start an answer over something that really should be quite obvious 83 years into your life.

This is a man obsessed with names. Surely he would want to know what his actual name was or questioned those who would know?

By the way do we think Aka speaks Hungarian?

I am with you on this @Lord Peter Flimsy

IMO he had a close connection to the Hungarian country and some people. The Kinczels of course, and there is a strong possibility he also has a family connection to Hungary.

I was looking back over the family coast of arms / crest thing that is on the wall of one of their addresses they lived in.
It is difficult to get a clear image of it .....

The name is important to him - he gave his kids with Diane that name. Why that name? He couldn't use Coppenolle because his swindling ways would have brought him down with a name like that in Australia ("his safe working base camp") , so closely linked to the Coppenolles in Belgium
He couldn't use Wouters because that too would have been a short sharp link to his Aust family here. And he had to be aware of his Belgium 'family' finding them here.

But he could have used any number of other names solely for the purpose of giving his kids a 'safe' name - a name not associated at all to his lying swindling ways.

But no, he chose deHedervary. This name has almost been as clean as a whistle for all those years.
His kids are still known as that name yet his wife uses Blum..... weird.

That name is intrinsically linked to this story - whether through the Kinczels or someone he knew.

 

[*juniper*]

I think I might have inadvertently started this debate about the reasons behind Marion's change of name. Apologies! It is just that I have been trying to work out why AKA would take the risky (IMO) step for Marion to use such a unique name that could & eventually was linked back to him.

For me, the reason for Marion’s name change was most likely related to money, because this seems to be a key motivator for AKA. His MO has become clearer as more victims have come forward – it is a variation of ‘sell your house/give me all your cash/I will go & buy our dream home in Paris/Bali/Australia’. Then AKA disappears with the cash, making it harder for the victim to prove the theft.

We know that Marion put $80,000 from the sale of her house into the Colonial bank & Sally says she also had money with the Commonwealth bank. This suggests to me that Marion wasn’t prepared to hand over all her cash to AKA, so he needed to quickly come up with an alternate plan. He was under time pressure as Marion was due to move in with her friend LLD, which would make it much harder for him to connect with her. Hence the decision to somehow compel Marion to change her name to FNMR. Once they were overseas, AKA could helpfully offer to open the new account on her behalf, but use his own FNR ID. He would then doctor the bank information to make it appear the account was in her new name. And Marion would feel confident to transfer her money into her new bank account. JMO

 

[Mrs_Vee]

I found a very close link to the Hedervary name and the areas mentioned in the UK!

I think I might have inadvertently started this debate about the reasons behind Marion's change of name. Apologies! It is just that I have been trying to work out why AKA would take the risky (IMO) step for Marion to use such a unique name that could & eventually was linked back to him.

For me, the reason for Marion’s name change was most likely related to money, because this seems to be a key motivator for AKA. His MO has become clearer as more victims have come forward – it is a variation of ‘sell your house/give me all your cash/I will go & buy our dream home in Paris/Bali/Australia’. Then AKA disappears with the cash, making it harder for the victim to prove the theft.

We know that Marion put $80,000 from the sale of her house into the Colonial bank & Sally says she also had money with the Commonwealth bank. This suggests to me that Marion wasn’t prepared to hand over all her cash to AKA, so he needed to quickly come up with an alternate plan. He was under time pressure as Marion was due to move in with her friend LLD, which would make it much harder for him to connect with her. Hence the decision to somehow compel Marion to change her name to FNMR. Once they were overseas, AKA could helpfully offer to open the new account on her behalf, but use his own FNR ID. He would then doctor the bank information to make it appear the account was in her new name. And Marion would feel confident to transfer her money into her new bank account. JMO

Think you might have hit the nail on the head there!

 

[MrsEmmaPeel]

Had a thought reading all y’all’s comments: what if RB suggested the name change to match his name in order to purchase a property in UK, ie. The School. The excuse he gives her is that they will marry soon but to buy property will be easier if they appear already married and share the same name. I believe RB had a different motive in mind which had to do with fraud, but imo this is a ruse which might have moved Marion to change her name. She could see the advantage of it. Fwiw

 

[KathPlumber]

I was just remembering the time I spent in Kent and Sussex visiting Bateman’s (Rudyard Kiplings house, as mentioned by @LordPeterWimsey here Post in thread 'Australia - Marion Barter, 51, missing after trip to UK, June 1997 #12') it’s right near Burwash and I found that it was another of the many historic places mentioned getting knocked off by thieves (taking rare bank notes and Tiffany lamps no less). Disappearing treasures stolen from Sussex

 

[VisitorDog]

I was looking at the most recent Facebook post and saw the reference to 'not assumptions or other's opinions' and wondered whether Sally finds this site / speculation upsetting. Obviously I understand the whole situation is upsetting (an understatement) but I wondered whether they'd actually prefer the conversations here didn't happen.

I've often thought that online speculation, in cases with victims, can be hurtful / unhelpful but had thought that in Marion's case the more visibility the better - given the podcast and requests for information and that they were publicly trying to come up with theories and talking about amateur online sleuths etc (and thinking that useful information has actually been found). But it made me wonder, seeing that. I guess I'm just questioning myself and whether it's a good thing.

 

[KiwiNZ]

I was looking at the most recent Facebook post and saw the reference to 'not assumptions or other's opinions' and wondered whether Sally finds this site / speculation upsetting. Obviously I understand the whole situation is upsetting (an understatement) but I wondered whether they'd actually prefer the conversations here didn't happen.

I've often thought that online speculation, in cases with victims, can be hurtful / unhelpful but had thought that in Marion's case the more visibility the better - given the podcast and requests for information and that they were publicly trying to come up with theories and talking about amateur online sleuths etc (and thinking that useful information has actually been found). But it made me wonder, seeing that. I guess I'm just questioning myself and whether it's a good thing.

I think it's a double edge sword, at one stage I am sure SL wanted nothing more than people to be publicly talking about this case, giving her theories and ideas as to what could have happened, but on the other hand that can become overwhelming and intrusive, especially now that the "TLV team" think they have this in a position where they have enough publicity and police support to be able to do most of the leg work behind the scene. But you can't just turn off the tap !! it was people's speculation, assumptions and gift for been inquisitive that got them here, this is peoples hobbie and they genuinely care and believe they are helping.

I know they would like us to be conducting our "speculation" in private and not in public

<modsnip: Off topic>

 

[VisitorDog]

I think it's a double edge sword, at one stage I am sure SL wanted nothing more than people to be publicly talking about this case, giving her theories and ideas as to what could have happened, but on the other hand that can become overwhelming and intrusive, especially now that the "TLV team" think they have this in a position where they have enough publicity and police support to be able to do most of the leg work behind the scene. But you can't just turn off the tap !! it was people's speculation, assumptions and gift for been inquisitive that got them here, this is peoples hobbie and they genuinely care and believe they are helping.

I know they would like us to be conducting our "speculation" in private and not in public

But also there are nutters out there that have no boundaries, will say hurtful things and insert themselves where not wanted - there is one based in the UK who is convinced Marion was killed by a politician (?) can't remember .....but it was batsht crazy and she wont go away

Yes, this all makes sense. I truly hope Sally and family can get the answers they need and deserve. For what it’s worth, I think she’s helped draw awareness / give support to others in her situation too.

 

[KiwiNZ]

Yes, this all makes sense. I truly hope Sally and family can get the answers they need and deserve. For what it’s worth, I think she’s helped draw awareness / give support to others in her situation too.

Agree all up this whole thing has been positive, others have benefited from this process and ultimately the person has been found and Sally does have some answers. But nothing is perfect, and I am sure Sally would agree that all of the negative stuff, as difficult and unfair as it is, will be worth it in the end.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I think I might have inadvertently started this debate about the reasons behind Marion's change of name. Apologies! It is just that I have been trying to work out why AKA would take the risky (IMO) step for Marion to use such a unique name that could & eventually was linked back to him.

For me, the reason for Marion’s name change was most likely related to money, because this seems to be a key motivator for AKA. His MO has become clearer as more victims have come forward – it is a variation of ‘sell your house/give me all your cash/I will go & buy our dream home in Paris/Bali/Australia’. Then AKA disappears with the cash, making it harder for the victim to prove the theft.

We know that Marion put $80,000 from the sale of her house into the Colonial bank & Sally says she also had money with the Commonwealth bank. This suggests to me that Marion wasn’t prepared to hand over all her cash to AKA, so he needed to quickly come up with an alternate plan. He was under time pressure as Marion was due to move in with her friend LLD, which would make it much harder for him to connect with her. Hence the decision to somehow compel Marion to change her name to FNMR. Once they were overseas, AKA could helpfully offer to open the new account on her behalf, but use his own FNR ID. He would then doctor the bank information to make it appear the account was in her new name. And Marion would feel confident to transfer her money into her new bank account. JMO

I personally feel this is exactly it and, again, as stated above, it was possibly Marion keeping her Marion as a middle name that would have been somewhat of an issue. Although maybe not as much as one would hope - after all, what's three out of four names correct to a con artist and fraudster and forger like RB? However, the very inclusion of 'Marion' on any recorded document creates a connection.