Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #18

[sah10406]

I don't know if I should be posting this, but it is all publicly available information. I recently compiled a short timeline to help me work out what was happening leading up to Marion obtaining a new passport. What is striking to me is how much extra work was created for her in a week when she was already under pressure due to packing up her house.

Great minds...

From MPMB today

I was thinking of posting here on the calendar days where something significant happened in May, 1997. Reason being that you can really get a feel for what Marion did leading up to her flying out on the 22nd June, 1997, in real time. There was a lot happening for her in May, 1997.

Please let us know if you are interested in this idea ?
Joni

 

[ruby925]

Also, did MB not get a driving license in the name of FNMR? I seem to remember seeing her passport application that showed a FNMR (or was it FNR?) driving license as a secondary form of identification...was this shown at the inquest? Another thing that would have been actioned in May 97.
all moo obvs

 

[mishy66]

Great minds...

From MPMB today

I was thinking of posting here on the calendar days where something significant happened in May, 1997. Reason being that you can really get a feel for what Marion did leading up to her flying out on the 22nd June, 1997, in real time. There was a lot happening for her in May, 1997.

Please let us know if you are interested in this idea ?
Joni

I think thats why it was put up again

 

[mishy66]

Also, did MB not get a driving license in the name of FNMR? I seem to remember seeing her passport application that showed a FNMR (or was it FNR?) driving license as a secondary form of identification...was this shown at the inquest? Another thing that would have been actioned in May 97.
all moo obvs

Yes thats right! It had male and Natalia spelt incorrectly I think

 

[hoodunnit]

Also, did MB not get a driving license in the name of FNMR? I seem to remember seeing her passport application that showed a FNMR (or was it FNR?) driving license as a secondary form of identification...was this shown at the inquest? Another thing that would have been actioned in May 97.
all moo obvs

@mishy66 - Yes thats right! It had male and Natalia spelt incorrectly I think

----
Being a passport application, you'd expect all documentation/identification would be very well scrutinised. Even in 1997. The fact that the drivers license said FNMR/FNR was MALE would have alerted them surely. I can't believe they would just accept it as a minor mistake and move on? Wonder if AKA had a mate in the passport office....

 

[ruby925]

@mishy66 - Yes thats right! It had male and Natalia spelt incorrectly I think

----
Being a passport application, you'd expect all documentation/identification would be very well scrutinised. Even in 1997. The fact that the drivers license said FNMR/FNR was MALE would have alerted them surely. I can't believe they would just accept it as a minor mistake and move on? Wonder if AKA had a mate in the passport office....

If MB did intend to stay overseas for a while, then her driving license should have matched her passport to hire a car (which she mentioned in her correspondence from UK). Wouldn't there still be a record of that FNMR driving license issue/name change from May 1997? If the FNR license was used instead to rush through the passport application (and a copy (eg photocopy, microfiche) was filed with the application, that would prove a hard link between MB and RB in the run up to them both leaving AUS. Probably wishful thinking on my part and all MOO...

 

[bettyboop]

Hello everyone. I haven't been as active on this thread as of late, unfortunately, as I still think of Marion often. I just wanted to pop in and say that I did not forget about Marion, or Sally and family for that matter. I am trying to catch up while following the many other cases I follow. I have nothing brilliant to add, but am so pleased to see how much effort is being put into this case. You are all absolutely amazing at research and sleuthing!!! JMO MOO

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

If MB did intend to stay overseas for a while, then her driving license should have matched her passport to hire a car (which she mentioned in her correspondence from UK). Wouldn't there still be a record of that FNMR driving license issue/name change from May 1997? If the FNR license was used instead to rush through the passport application (and a copy (eg photocopy, microfiche) was filed with the application, that would prove a hard link between MB and RB in the run up to them both leaving AUS. Probably wishful thinking on my part and all MOO...

I have often wondered about this car hire / driving licence / passport name change.

I live in the UK and although there was the internet and digital recognition devices by 1997, renting a car depended on having your ducks in a row - passport, drivers licence, credit card. That's because they were taking no chances on you disappearing their motor.

Either Marion changed the names on ALL her things or she didn't? Or RB rented the car. Or she kept hold of copies of both forms of documentation and interchanged between using her real name and the new name? (I don't think Marion sounds like the sort of person who would do that but if she believed she was in the company of an undercover agent, then who knows)

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

@mishy66 - Yes thats right! It had male and Natalia spelt incorrectly I think

----
Being a passport application, you'd expect all documentation/identification would be very well scrutinised. Even in 1997. The fact that the drivers license said FNMR/FNR was MALE would have alerted them surely. I can't believe they would just accept it as a minor mistake and move on? Wonder if AKA had a mate in the passport office....

What if RB had already got other identities set up in the similar names? It might not just have been 'his' FNR fake identity and Marion's FNMR identity. He could have set up two or three other FNR / FNMR passports or identities that we don't even know about maybe issued in other countries with other women. Could probably buy a whole set of fake documents forged from scratch with no real person sitting behind it.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Wonder if RB was supposed to rock up to the family dinner with Marion before she left but he didn’t for some reason?

Heartbreaking to think that if he'd been bold enough to rock up or M had insisted, the whole gig might have been up.

 

[KinseyFan]

@mishy66 - Yes thats right! It had male and Natalia spelt incorrectly I think

----
Being a passport application, you'd expect all documentation/identification would be very well scrutinised. Even in 1997. The fact that the drivers license said FNMR/FNR was MALE would have alerted them surely. I can't believe they would just accept it as a minor mistake and move on? Wonder if AKA had a mate in the passport office....

Or…. Maybe things WERE a bit less rigid back then? I remember flying with someone else’s air ticket in the 90s (interstate only though) and overstaying my visa in the USA with no repercussions. I don’t remember the same rigidity around EXACT spelling of passport names. ESP if only 1 letter difference. Didn’t RB get his oz citizenship rushed due to “sick father”? He certainly spins a good yarn

 

[ruby925]

Or…. Maybe things WERE a bit less rigid back then? I remember flying with someone else’s air ticket in the 90s (interstate only though) and overstaying my visa in the USA with no repercussions. I don’t remember the same rigidity around EXACT spelling of passport names. ESP if only 1 letter difference. Didn’t RB get his oz citizenship rushed due to “sick father”? He certainly spins a good yarn

I was just wondering whether the original FNR driving license may have been used as ID for MB's passport application ...perhaps due time constraints...rather than an FNMR driving license which MB should have acquired if she wanted to drive in UK. We know her bank accounts were in the MB name, presuming her credit cards (if held) were in MB name too? If MB had her deed poll docs with her, it's possible she could have winged it in 1997 using FNMR passport, FNMR license and MB credit cards...bit of unnecessary complication though if you plan to be overseas for a year? Also, in other later cases, RB seemingly kept all the documents safe, wondering if that happened after MB hired a car.
All Moo..the name change feels like a major up to the plan...and as far as we know, didn't feature again...except for RB of course, who had 'a few' name changes.

 

[hoodunnit]

Or…. Maybe things WERE a bit less rigid back then? I remember flying with someone else’s air ticket in the 90s (interstate only though) and overstaying my visa in the USA with no repercussions. I don’t remember the same rigidity around EXACT spelling of passport names. ESP if only 1 letter difference. Didn’t RB get his oz citizenship rushed due to “sick father”? He certainly spins a good yarn

I could understand a simple spelling mistake in the name, but license stating the person is male when she's obviously female?

 

[mishy66]

Today on the MB FB Page

"Thursday 8th May, 1997 was another school day. However, according to The Southport School (TSS) calendar, the Preparatory School had set aside this day to work on their exhibits for the "Art Fest" set for July 1997, focusing on the works of Vincent van Gogh.
Remembering that Marion went on to mention to Sally in a postcard in July that she was looking forward to seeing Van Gogh's "Sunflowers" & visiting Holland shortly.
Marion would have had in the back of her mind that her house would settle tomorrow, Friday, with the assistance of her solicitor, a TSS parent, who she approached to act in the sale of her home in Ashmore earlier in the year."



I am interested in who this parent from TSS is, being a solicitor .....
I came across a legal firm / solicitor who had connections to TSS back in the day - wonder if there is a connection to this

@Eyespywithmylittleeye

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[mishy66]

I have been looking at that address he used in 1974 when he skipped briefly back into Aust ( returned to Australia 11 days after being released from prison in France) and put the address 31 / 33 Old Mitchell Road Bondi on his passenger card

No idea if this is related but it was fascinating where it led me.

A Jewish couple started working for a company in Sydney back in the 1950s - HG Palmer - which eventually was sold for $4 when it didn't pay its debts and creditors.

The couple then started out on their own with restoration, metal casting /jewellery making etc, which led to them taking over a business which continued to deal in antique restoration, gold and silver plating and antiques right through the 80's.

They were very involved with the Jewish community, along with their son, who married a woman who was a Director of a Jewish Preschool.

This family are shown to have lived at that address, number 31 - 1972 but then move to Rose Bay


As @Lord Peter Flimsy keeps saying, the stories weaving through the Jewish communities have me also convinced he is Jewish by parentage - maybe brought up in a Catholic family - but born to a Jewish parent?
Orthodox Judaism considers individuals born of Jewish mothers to be Jewish, even if they convert to or are raised in another religion.

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[BabeBlues]

Or…. Maybe things WERE a bit less rigid back then? I remember flying with someone else’s air ticket in the 90s (interstate only though) and overstaying my visa in the USA with no repercussions. I don’t remember the same rigidity around EXACT spelling of passport names. ESP if only 1 letter difference. Didn’t RB get his oz citizenship rushed due to “sick father”? He certainly spins a good yarn

Yes, my passport and drivers license name spelling didn't match up by one letter for years and it was never an issue until more recently. Everything has to be exactly the same these days.

 

[BabeBlues]

I could understand a simple spelling mistake in the name, but license stating the person is male when she's obviously female?

Maybe they overlooked it as the name Florabella is a female name and they figured it must have been a typo/human error? Perhaps Marion said she would have it corrected, and they were happy with that?

 

[1965school]

Maybe they overlooked it as the name Florabella is a female name and they figured it must have been a typo/human error? Perhaps Marion said she would have it corrected, and they were happy with that?

I am wondering if aka got the licence no photo back those days and they either didn’t question the florabella name or he told some story about his ethnicity and being a male name all he has to say to Marion that they made an error and put male instead of female. If he didn’t renew his in 1997 maybe this is a substitute

 

[riddlesandpuzzles77]

Yes, my passport and drivers license name spelling didn't match up by one letter for years and it was never an issue until more recently. Everything has to be exactly the same these days.

I was just having a look at my passport I got in October 97.... looking at the entry stamps it reminded how while in Europe/uk, I travelled on train from Switzerland to small town about 20kms into Italy and not required any sort of check either way, also when travelled by road into France and Belgium. I have entry stamps for Austria and return to Switzerland and for Liechtenstein ( hadto ask for that one as more a bit of fun).... anyway experience travelling around was more laxed as such.
Really interesting by the way about the passport and licence with FR not renewed again

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I have been looking at that address he used in 1974 when he skipped briefly back into Aust ( returned to Australia 11 days after being released from prison in France) and put the address 31 / 33 Old Mitchell Road Bondi on his passenger card

No idea if this is related but it was fascinating where it led me.

A Jewish couple started working for a company in Sydney back in the 1950s - HG Palmer - which eventually was sold for $4 when it didn't pay its debts and creditors.

The couple then started out on their own with restoration, metal casting /jewellery making etc, which led to them taking over a business which continued to deal in antique restoration, gold and silver plating and antiques right through the 80's.

They were very involved with the Jewish community, along with their son, who married a woman who was a Director of a Jewish Preschool.

This family are shown to have lived at that address, number 31 - 1972 but then move to Rose Bay


As @Lord Peter Flimsy keeps saying, the stories weaving through the Jewish communities have me also convinced he is Jewish by parentage - maybe brought up in a Catholic family - but born to a Jewish parent?
Orthodox Judaism considers individuals born of Jewish mothers to be Jewish, even if they convert to or are raised in another religion.

Or he could have been lying about being Jewish in order to gain support and assistance from the jewish community? There are certain religious obligations to be supportive to another and he was on his uppers. The fact they were involved in coins / metal pressing is mindblowing tho.