Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #19

[MrsEmmaPeel]

MOO… And completely spitballing here, but I’d like to hear opinions on my opinions… But here is my current theory.

AKA screwed up big time with his selection of Marion. His target seems to be women at their most vulnerable, but also women who are on the non-confrontational side. I think he saw Marion as vulnerable and meek. But while Marion was going through a rough patch, she had gone through worse before. She wasn’t at her lowest, she really wasn’t even close to her lowest. And from the stories Sally has told, she may have looked like a sweet demure and retiring teacher, but she was a firecracker and had a low “*advertiser censored*” threshold.

And I don’t think AKA knew about the timing of the name change. I think they discussed her changing her name post marriage, maybe he even gave her the moniker of “Florabella”. (She was his beautiful flower after all.) But, I think she decided to get it changed before leaving Australia. Because why wait? She knew the process in Australia, she wasn’t intending to return to Australia, again why wait? Why try to get it changed in a foreign country? Much easier to do it before leaving.

And I think the new passport screwed up his plans. (I could be wrong about this, but I don’t think I am.) When Marion went with AKA to withdraw her money in the UK/abroad, she couldn’t. Because her passport no longer matched the details on her bank account. And I don’t think they’d have accepted a foreign driver’s license back then as proof of identity. So they had to return. Maybe they could have had the name on the account changed and returned to the UK to withdraw funds. But at this point, AKA has to be hearing the clock ticking and is likely pissed that he’s burning his own “hard earned” money on this scam. And it’s all going to ruin in front of his beedy little eyes. At this point, I bet he’s pretty pissed at Marion for screwing his plans up. (I also think that at this point if he doesn’t get HIS money out of her, he’d consider it theft.)

Maybe AKA says something curious at this point, maybe his mask slips and Marion spots it. Again, I think he was a boiling pot at this point, his normal plans got screwed up by the stupid woman. So I wouldn’t be surprised if his mask was slipping. Or possibly AKA makes a really stupid mistake and Marion sees a driver’s license that has his face but not his name. And steals it. (For all the lies AKA told, I think the stolen license might have some merit.) And she confronts him. I don’t know if she went to his house and confronted him or she did it wherever she/they were staying on the return trip. But, from Sally’s stories, I think she would have confronted him. And I bet that sent him over the edge. Because all of it was her fault. She didn’t play her part properly. She was doing things without his permission/his prompting. And now she’s yelling at HIM?

One last thing about the license… I can’t help but wonder if, after he scrambled to dispose of her body, he realized he never retrieved the license. (Or that it was now missing.) And if that’s the case, I hope it’s disappearance has kept him up at night.

I, for one, love theories. So thanks for yours! With your theory, would RB then have urged Marion to return to Australia to make things right with the bank? Or do you think she was killed abroad? Refresh my memory, pls, so bank account(s) were in the name Barter, correct?

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I don't agree with some aspects of the above theory but the gist of it, I agree that possibly the reason Marion has never been seen again is because unfortunately for her, she did challenge RB in a way that he had not foreseen or expected because she was less vulnerable.

Maybe she had started out totally compliant and even changed her name to the frankly ludicrous Florabella Natalia Ramakel, as, IMO, doubtless firmly instructed to do so but she threw a spanner in the works keeping 'Marion'.

Also my belief is that as a teacher who had worked with youngsters for so many years, she was well used to seeing through and managing fibs, fabrications, temper tantrums, and all forms of childish outbursts as well as having a good understanding of what interpersonal bullying and intimidation are - these are issues any teacher would be aware of, professionally and experientially. As well as keeping paperwork in good order and dotting the 'i's, crossing the 't's and following rules to the letter, plus having a belief in 'the insitution', hierarchies, and forms of authority.

I suspect for those reasons that although she was led a merry dance, she started to see something wasn't real and true and due to her personality, she wasn't the sort that was going to be menaced by any man. She probably also wasn't the sort to bend rules to suit herself or agree to inappropriate conduct where it could be 'against the rules'.

Also, I think if she realised RB was scamming her, if it's true she was a bit of a 'firecracker' I think she'd have been indignant with rage and ready to alert all form of authorities and tell her family, not fold into a suicidal despair. Only the people who know her best would be able to comment on that.

JMO MOO

 

[Passingthru]

I, for one, love theories. So thanks for yours! With your theory, would RB then have urged Marion to return to Australia to make things right with the bank? Or do you think she was killed abroad? Refresh my memory, pls, so bank account(s) were in the name Barter, correct?

Yes, I think it’s why they both came back. And I don’t think it was a “hard sell”. I think he expected her to be able to go into a bank and withdraw the money. When that didn’t work, she would have had to return to withdraw the money anyway. Might have even initially made it easier to convince her to withdraw the cash. “We’ll just declare it! What if we get back to Europe and we encounter similar problems? Much easier to just take the cash.” Or hell he could have convinced her that he’s never had an issue accessing his accounts from abroad. “We’re going to be married anyway, I’ll just deposit into my own account!”

 

[ruby925]

So how would it have played out if Marion's bank accounts had been name changed to FNMR? Would her money have been transferred to UK and withdrawn in cash, or a UK/European bank account been opened in the FNMR name or even a joint account? Whether the story is to buy a school (I don't think MB had enough funds to do that by herself) or make an initial payment for a house for their new life together? Then MB is abandoned in Europe, the money is gone and the perpetrator 'disappears' and the FNR driving license is not renewed. A successful scam, no 'crime/fouling the nest' in Australia.
With Marion's money still in the name of Barter, a hasty plan B could have been to go back to Aus, withdraw the money piecemeal in cash (was a counter transaction necessary to do that?) and in time, make a plan to get the lump sum from the other bank. IMO it is after this point that Marion realised she had been scammed and she could have brought his life crashing down..so she had to 'disappear'
I am thinking how the car vendor in Australia was so impressed by this suave cultured car buyer with the French accent, Marion kept her relationship and any plans she had with RB a secret from her family and friends, I think she was in love and would have wanted to trust in an exciting new relationship with this rich entrepeneur....it would have taken a lot for her to relinquish that idea.
All MOO of course.

 

[CuriousKat99]

MOO… And completely spitballing here, but I’d like to hear opinions on my opinions… But here is my current theory.

AKA screwed up big time with his selection of Marion. His target seems to be women at their most vulnerable, but also women who are on the non-confrontational side. I think he saw Marion as vulnerable and meek. But while Marion was going through a rough patch, she had gone through worse before. She wasn’t at her lowest, she really wasn’t even close to her lowest. And from the stories Sally has told, she may have looked like a sweet demure and retiring teacher, but she was a firecracker and had a low “*advertiser censored*” threshold.

And I don’t think AKA knew about the timing of the name change. I think they discussed her changing her name post marriage, maybe he even gave her the moniker of “Florabella”. (She was his beautiful flower after all.) But, I think she decided to get it changed before leaving Australia. Because why wait? She knew the process in Australia, she wasn’t intending to return to Australia, again why wait? Why try to get it changed in a foreign country? Much easier to do it before leaving.

And I think the new passport screwed up his plans. (I could be wrong about this, but I don’t think I am.) When Marion went with AKA to withdraw her money in the UK/abroad, she couldn’t. Because her passport no longer matched the details on her bank account. And I don’t think they’d have accepted a foreign driver’s license back then as proof of identity. So they had to return. Maybe they could have had the name on the account changed and returned to the UK to withdraw funds. But at this point, AKA has to be hearing the clock ticking and is likely pissed that he’s burning his own “hard earned” money on this scam. And it’s all going to ruin in front of his beedy little eyes. At this point, I bet he’s pretty pissed at Marion for screwing his plans up. (I also think that at this point if he doesn’t get HIS money out of her, he’d consider it theft.)

Maybe AKA says something curious at this point, maybe his mask slips and Marion spots it. Again, I think he was a boiling pot at this point, his normal plans got screwed up by the stupid woman. So I wouldn’t be surprised if his mask was slipping. Or possibly AKA makes a really stupid mistake and Marion sees a driver’s license that has his face but not his name. And steals it. (For all the lies AKA told, I think the stolen license might have some merit.) And she confronts him. I don’t know if she went to his house and confronted him or she did it wherever she/they were staying on the return trip. But, from Sally’s stories, I think she would have confronted him. And I bet that sent him over the edge. Because all of it was her fault. She didn’t play her part properly. She was doing things without his permission/his prompting. And now she’s yelling at HIM?

One last thing about the license… I can’t help but wonder if, after he scrambled to dispose of her body, he realized he never retrieved the license. (Or that it was now missing.) And if that’s the case, I hope it’s disappearance has kept him up at night.

All very plausible based on known facts, especially the parts where he blames her for things going wrong.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

So how would it have played out if Marion's bank accounts had been name changed to FNMR? Would her money have been transferred to UK and withdrawn in cash, or a UK/European bank account been opened in the FNMR name or even a joint account? Whether the story is to buy a school (I don't think MB had enough funds to do that by herself) or make an initial payment for a house for their new life together? Then MB is abandoned in Europe, the money is gone and the perpetrator 'disappears' and the FNR driving license is not renewed. A successful scam, no 'crime/fouling the nest' in Australia.
With Marion's money still in the name of Barter, a hasty plan B could have been to go back to Aus, withdraw the money piecemeal in cash (was a counter transaction necessary to do that?) and in time, make a plan to get the lump sum from the other bank. IMO it is after this point that Marion realised she had been scammed and she could have brought his life crashing down..so she had to 'disappear'
I am thinking how the car vendor in Australia was so impressed by this suave cultured car buyer with the French accent, Marion kept her relationship and any plans she had with RB a secret from her family and friends, I think she was in love and would have wanted to trust in an exciting new relationship with this rich entrepeneur....it would have taken a lot for her to relinquish that idea.
All MOO of course.

I think we can see from the other women's accounts that this is exactly his pattern and very likely what was supposed to have happened. Marion was supposed to have been fleeced and then abandoned in the UK.

Instead, Marion had to be brought / lured back to Australia to be fleeced and got rid of in rather a more permanent manner IMO, sadly and tragically and I'm sorry to say those words.

The clue to this is that he has a defensive cover story for it - a 'cult society' she ran off with, telling him she wanted to break away from her family, and even an airline pilot dressed in uniform moving her boxes LOL. Also he can repeatedly and truthfully say the last time he saw her was in Australia, v firm on that, because it is also true.

The problem for RB with the plan adaption is that it was unexpected. I'm absolutely convinced that means there are other people who will know of it, witnessed it, albeit unwittingly at the time. Also, he is greedy and compulsive. This is proven by the fact that he decided to perpetrate a demonic act instead of returning home and abandoning the plan, like a 'normal' person would (albeit not 'normal' to fleece vulnerable women). He could have just 'jilted' her and fled home realising it wasn't working out, but no, he wanted his 'big win' IMO.


JMO MOO

 

[Kie22]

So how would it have played out if Marion's bank accounts had been name changed to FNMR? Would her money have been transferred to UK and withdrawn in cash, or a UK/European bank account been opened in the FNMR name or even a joint account? Whether the story is to buy a school (I don't think MB had enough funds to do that by herself) or make an initial payment for a house for their new life together? Then MB is abandoned in Europe, the money is gone and the perpetrator 'disappears' and the FNR driving license is not renewed. A successful scam, no 'crime/fouling the nest' in Australia.
With Marion's money still in the name of Barter, a hasty plan B could have been to go back to Aus, withdraw the money piecemeal in cash (was a counter transaction necessary to do that?) and in time, make a plan to get the lump sum from the other bank. IMO it is after this point that Marion realised she had been scammed and she could have brought his life crashing down..so she had to 'disappear'
I am thinking how the car vendor in Australia was so impressed by this suave cultured car buyer with the French accent, Marion kept her relationship and any plans she had with RB a secret from her family and friends, I think she was in love and would have wanted to trust in an exciting new relationship with this rich entrepeneur....it would have taken a lot for her to relinquish that idea.
All MOO of course.

Agreed! Going further, the rich entrepreneur could also have been a European undercover agent who needed to keep their relationship and his identity hidden from her family friends until his top secret business was completed. However, being so in love that wouldn't stop them having a secret wedding of sorts, followed by a romantic honeymoon on the Orient Express before settling down in a beautiful spacious apartment (with servants) and announce their marriage. The family would be amazed and delighted. Celebrations all round! The only (sudden) problem was that some of his investments were taking time to come through so they needed to get her house money out asap to pay for it all. Or he'd been robbed and bashed (his work was very dangerous of course) had everything stolen and needed funds quickly... etc.etc.....
After returning to Australia worried and eager to help, MB spent a lonely couple of weeks following his instructions to stay hidden and withdrew the maximum daily amount that she could under the terms of the deposit account. At some point during this time alarm bells started to go off and the plan started to unravel. AKA knew the game was up and she was 'disappeared'.
Was MB the one who withdrew the last of her money in October or was it someone made up to look like her? Interestingly the bank teller said she remembered clearly seeing a big flower in MB's hair. She even remembered the type/colour of flower but couldn't describe the clothing or hair if I've go that right? She said something like MB 'seemed away with the fairies' and talked about 'finding herself' in Bali..
Put a big flower on your head and chatter on aimlessly so the person you're talking to dismisses you as simple; isn't this a classic distraction technique if you don't want someone to pay close attention to your face? I didn't give much weight to the teller's testimony, but this part stood out for me. IMO of course!!

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Seeing this story, not Marion related, but my thoughts ran to Mr AKA.

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[VisitorDog]

MOO… And completely spitballing here, but I’d like to hear opinions on my opinions… But here is my current theory.

AKA screwed up big time with his selection of Marion. His target seems to be women at their most vulnerable, but also women who are on the non-confrontational side. I think he saw Marion as vulnerable and meek. But while Marion was going through a rough patch, she had gone through worse before. She wasn’t at her lowest, she really wasn’t even close to her lowest. And from the stories Sally has told, she may have looked like a sweet demure and retiring teacher, but she was a firecracker and had a low “*advertiser censored*” threshold.

And I don’t think AKA knew about the timing of the name change. I think they discussed her changing her name post marriage, maybe he even gave her the moniker of “Florabella”. (She was his beautiful flower after all.) But, I think she decided to get it changed before leaving Australia. Because why wait? She knew the process in Australia, she wasn’t intending to return to Australia, again why wait? Why try to get it changed in a foreign country? Much easier to do it before leaving.

And I think the new passport screwed up his plans. (I could be wrong about this, but I don’t think I am.) When Marion went with AKA to withdraw her money in the UK/abroad, she couldn’t. Because her passport no longer matched the details on her bank account. And I don’t think they’d have accepted a foreign driver’s license back then as proof of identity. So they had to return. Maybe they could have had the name on the account changed and returned to the UK to withdraw funds. But at this point, AKA has to be hearing the clock ticking and is likely pissed that he’s burning his own “hard earned” money on this scam. And it’s all going to ruin in front of his beedy little eyes. At this point, I bet he’s pretty pissed at Marion for screwing his plans up. (I also think that at this point if he doesn’t get HIS money out of her, he’d consider it theft.)

Maybe AKA says something curious at this point, maybe his mask slips and Marion spots it. Again, I think he was a boiling pot at this point, his normal plans got screwed up by the stupid woman. So I wouldn’t be surprised if his mask was slipping. Or possibly AKA makes a really stupid mistake and Marion sees a driver’s license that has his face but not his name. And steals it. (For all the lies AKA told, I think the stolen license might have some merit.) And she confronts him. I don’t know if she went to his house and confronted him or she did it wherever she/they were staying on the return trip. But, from Sally’s stories, I think she would have confronted him. And I bet that sent him over the edge. Because all of it was her fault. She didn’t play her part properly. She was doing things without his permission/his prompting. And now she’s yelling at HIM?

One last thing about the license… I can’t help but wonder if, after he scrambled to dispose of her body, he realized he never retrieved the license. (Or that it was now missing.) And if that’s the case, I hope it’s disappearance has kept him up at night.

I agree. I’m in the minority thinking she drove the name change in anticipation of marriage. Traveling as Mr and Mrs Remakel. And this is ultimately what led to AKA being discovered many years later.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I agree. I’m in the minority thinking she drove the name change in anticipation of marriage. Traveling as Mr and Mrs Remakel. And this is ultimately what led to AKA being discovered many years later.

According to my memory, Marion had already had experience with changing her name by deed poll, when she changed her name to Barter, prior to actually getting married.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Just an idea but re the testimony of the woman with a flower in her hair coming into the bank saying she's off to start a new life in Bali. Lets just say it were true, assuming she was also removing all her cash, and silverchair were in 1996 not 1997, could it have in fact been a previous victim of RB?

Is there maybe some other reason that seeing the posters of missing Marion prompted the Bank Manager to have this sudden recall? Maybe what she recalled wasn't so much prompted by the photo image but by the concept of something not quite right about a middle aged lady taking a huge lump sum saying she's off to start a new life. Perhaps there's another missing or defunded account holder at that branch needs looking for?

 

[mishy66]

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from MBMP facebook page

Message sent from a ‘Clark Hunter’ back in July 2013
“Natalia is alive but you never see her again”.
“It was not her intention to disappear, she was forced”

View attachment 427099

View attachment 427100

KIWI

It was in May 2013
Only 3 months after SL started the FB page on Marion.

 

[Liselle]

Seeing this story, not Marion related, but my thoughts ran to Mr AKA.

MSN

www.msn.com

EXIT TRAFFICKING!! This part of the story is interesting - "AFP Detective Superintendent Simone Butcher said exit trafficking involved the use of coercion, deception or threats to organise or facilitate the exit of another person from Australia."

 

[HinterlandObserver]

I agree. I’m in the minority thinking she drove the name change in anticipation of marriage. Traveling as Mr and Mrs Remakel. And this is ultimately what led to AKA being discovered many years later.

Out of all names to choose, would you pick a whole new name to bizarrely match initials by choice, or maybe just a surname if expecting an impending union?

 

[TootsieFootsie]

EXIT TRAFFICKING!! This part of the story is interesting - "AFP Detective Superintendent Simone Butcher said exit trafficking involved the use of coercion, deception or threats to organise or facilitate the exit of another person from Australia.

Seems it's a fairly new charge. The first person was charged last March.

 

[ruby925]

Out of all names to choose, would you pick a whole new name to bizarrely match initials by choice, or maybe just a surname if expecting an impending union?

My original thought was that Marion changed her name (without telling anyone, inc RB) to Remakel because in Luxembourg a wife didn't by law acquire the husband's surname). But yes, why not just make the change to Marion Remakel..the new initials were obviously important to someone's plan.

 

[CuriousKat99]

Out of all names to choose, would you pick a whole new name to bizarrely match initials by choice, or maybe just a surname if expecting an impending union?

Yes very good point. Changing the family name would likely have been something Marion would have been keen on. Changing the given names so the initials match his latest alias just feels like the AKA special touch.

 

[MrsWattle]

Yes very good point. Changing the family name would likely have been something Marion would have been keen on. Changing the given names so the initials match his latest alias just feels like the AKA special touch.

He may have been trying to steal from the real Mr Remakel by setting up bank account with the same name. Using Marion for more bank fraud.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

EXIT TRAFFICKING!! This part of the story is interesting - "AFP Detective Superintendent Simone Butcher said exit trafficking involved the use of coercion, deception or threats to organise or facilitate the exit of another person from Australia."

Yes! It is, isn't it. It's human trafficking to do this. Bang on point. There are greater forces patiently waiting for Mr AKA on the other side of this Inquest, I'm quite sure of it.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

He may have been trying to steal from the real Mr Remakel by setting up bank account with the same name. Using Marion for more bank fraud.

That's what I think - or he already had documents of the real FNR (male) so having yet more, most especially a passport would mean he could open bank accounts or suchlike. JMO