Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #20

[M0nnyka]

I wonder if RB was a gambler and a drug user - his frequent trips could easily have been to bring in drugs etc - being a grifter all his life - often these types have habits to feed.

 

[hoodunnit]

I am more saying she was not a starry eyed younger person easily wooed by a man - she responded to ads to meet RB or vica versa - these ads in newspapers back then were the equivalent to dating sites of today and it must take a fair amount of confidence to reply band meet and start a relationship like this. Did RB allude to MB being promiscuous when on the stand? Can’t remember what he said about that.
Either way it takes moxy on behalf of the person to respond to those types of ads I would say - meeting a total stranger like that.

There is no proof MB placed, or responded to an ad.

 

[M0nnyka]

There is no proof MB placed, or responded to an ad.

How did they meet then? Do we know that ?

 

[ruby925]

Marion had intended going on the Orient Express on the 15 July 1997 according to her postcard home postmarked 7 July. Her phone call home (31 July) to Sally was where she said it had been cancelled. A later postcard was produced at the Inquest that gave a reason (the floods in Germany) and that it had been delayed until late Aug 1997.

This would allow her time to come back to Australia and fly out again. Those German floods which did happen came in mighty convenient, however the timeline never quite fitted as Germany was not properly affected by the Central European Floods until the 24 July after the date they should have departed on the Orient Express?

To me there is no way Marion was going to travel alone on the Orient Express. This was a ‘pleasure and experience’ to be shared. I very much doubt she booked any tickets herself assuming any tickets were ever booked. The precise date she gives might suggest they were booked even if he had no intention of using them.

Marion’s postcards are a tantalising glimpse into what was going on. I just hope a few more might come to light as Marion appeared to be a prolific writer of letters and postcards.

Agreed, I don't think Marion planned to go alone on the Orient Express..but those tickets were expensive and I very much doubt her 'companion' would have paid for tickets with his own money. JMO

 

[Martinie]

If Marion didn't return to Australia, it is possible that AKA set up someone with some fake ID, maybe sold on her passport and medicare (altho by then they were in two diff names) to someone desperate to get to Australia or even two different people.

There would have been instances of those ID'S being used again if that was the case.

I think it was either her using the medicare card or him trying to show proof of life by having his wife use it while in Grafton while the kids were at the swimming carnival. I still think Marion was in Grafton with him and he got that extra car for her to drive around in while him and his family used the main car. For some reason I believe Grafton is where the story with Marion ends, as she may have seen him with his family while there and confronted him later on about it and... who knows what happened after that?

 

[MrPickles]

Whilst I have waivered on Marion returning to Australia, I keep returning to her last conversation with Sally, where she said she would be out of touch for a while..i still think this is because she was returning to Australia and didn't yet want SL to know, not because she was going on the Orient Express etc.

Yes. I’m also in the camp that MB did return to Australia. The alternative means the involvement of at least another one or two players outside of family. His MO suggests he works alone in terms of the fleecing of woman.

I’m also in the camp that it wasn’t MB who withdrew the money. My friend who has worked at CBA since 1998 said it was very easy to withdraw 5k or less in the 90’s with very little ID - Proof of ID was that your signature matched your invisible bank book signature under ultra violet light. With withdrawals of more that 5k a day you would need to advise the bank in advance and provide further identification. The maximum of 5k a day was a very calculated move IMO.

I believe the timeline between MB’s return on August 2nd and the first withdrawal on August 15th is crucial and where the police should focus. Speculation only.

 

[mishy66]

The only reasons I thought he may be a gambler was his mention of watching the GGs on TV and the fact he said (if you can believe anything he says) that he went to the South of France. The region he mentioned is prime casino country. His wife also did make the comment about him having no big wins. Incidentally Marion lived very close to a race track.

Anyone in his line of business is a natural gambler with the possibility of being caught at any moment by making an error or wrong judgement. You never know when a Policeman may come knocking on the door. Sadly in his case it took way too long.

Not to mention Knokke Heist!

 

[MrPickles]

I am more saying she was not a starry eyed younger person easily wooed by a man - she responded to ads to meet RB or vica versa - these ads in newspapers back then were the equivalent to dating sites of today and it must take a fair amount of confidence to reply band meet and start a relationship like this. Did RB allude to MB being promiscuous when on the stand? Can’t remember what he said about that.
Either way it takes moxy on behalf of the person to respond to those types of ads I would say - meeting a total stranger like that.

It’s AKA’s evidence that MB placed an ad. So far it has not been confirmed to be the truth. MB told SL that she met ‘the man in the car’ at the Arts Centre. This could in fact be the truth of it. The Arts Centre is a mighty fine place to scout out vulnerable victims.

 

[mishy66]

Marion had intended going on the Orient Express on the 15 July 1997 according to her postcard home postmarked 7 July. Her phone call home (31 July) to Sally was where she said it had been cancelled. A later postcard was produced at the Inquest that gave a reason (the floods in Germany) and that it had been delayed until late Aug 1997.

This would allow her time to come back to Australia and fly out again. Those German floods which did happen came in mighty convenient, however the timeline never quite fitted as Germany was not properly affected by the Central European Floods until the 24 July after the date they should have departed on the Orient Express?

To me there is no way Marion was going to travel alone on the Orient Express. This was a ‘pleasure and experience’ to be shared. I very much doubt she booked any tickets herself assuming any tickets were ever booked. The precise date she gives might suggest they were booked even if he had no intention of using them.

Marion’s postcards are a tantalising glimpse into what was going on. I just hope a few more might come to light as Marion appeared to be a prolific writer of letters and postcards.

Agree totally
She was never going on that trip with AH. It was just all part of his BS telling her he had booked their "honeymoon " . JMO
Marion MAY have wanted to do that trip but AH was never going to be on that train with her.

Its the 30 August postcard with no writing ???on the back that was sent from Tunbridge Wells I'm more interested in.

 

[MrPickles]

Agree totally
She was never going on that trip with AH. It was just all part of his BS telling her he had booked their "honeymoon " . JMO
Marion MAY have wanted to do that trip but AH was never going to be on that train with her.

Its the 30 August postcard with no writing ???on the back that was sent from Tunbridge Wells I'm more interested in.

Wow! I had no idea there was an August 30 postcard from TW with no writing on it! That is a hugely calculated set up to have it seem that MB was still in the UK.

 

[Martinie]

Agree totally
She was never going on that trip with AH. It was just all part of his BS telling her he had booked their "honeymoon " . JMO
Marion MAY have wanted to do that trip but AH was never going to be on that train with her.

Its the 30 August postcard with no writing ???on the back that was sent from Tunbridge Wells I'm more interested in.

Who was the blank postcard sent to? I dont recall reading that anywhere!

 

[mishy66]

Who was the blank postcard sent to? I dont recall reading that anywhere!

I dont know IF it was blank which is why I ???? Mark after . Another slueth mentioned it a while back.

But the 30th postmark has been talked about for ages here. It was commented about on podcast ? ages ago and discussed at length here.
Still murky waters.

 

[KinseyFan]

Wow. Has there always been 173 records of RB/AKA with the National Archives of Australia? (I’m not good at these record searches) View Digital Image

 

[mishy66]

Wow. Has there always been 173 records of RB/AKA with the National Archives of Australia? (I’m not good at these record searches) View Digital Image

Yeah there has

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

There would have been instances of those ID'S being used again if that was the case.

I think it was either her using the medicare card or him trying to show proof of life by having his wife use it while in Grafton while the kids were at the swimming carnival. I still think Marion was in Grafton with him and he got that extra car for her to drive around in while him and his family used the main car. For some reason I believe Grafton is where the story with Marion ends, as she may have seen him with his family while there and confronted him later on about it and... who knows what happened after that?

I agree that would be more than likely if he'd sold the passport and IDs on.

I agree with your other points too, I can never truly settle my mind on this. All we can know for sure is that if Marion did return to Australia in her mind that would have been a temporary visit to organise finances before setting back out to travel.

And for her not to inform her children or family, to not pop in and see them, AKA must have put her under the most tremendous stress or threat, maybe inventing some form of threat to her children? Otherwise why would she go along with such secrecy and charade?

 

[MrPickles]

I agree that would be more than likely if he'd sold the passport and IDs on.

I agree with your other points too, I can never truly settle my mind on this. All we can know for sure is that if Marion did return to Australia in her mind that would have been a temporary visit to organise finances before setting back out to travel.

And for her not to inform her children or family, to not pop in and see them, AKA must have put her under the most tremendous stress or threat, maybe inventing some form of threat to her children? Otherwise why would she go along with such secrecy and charade?

I could imagine AKA being able to hold MB off making contact with her kids for a couple of weeks - but definitely not the 11 weeks between her return and the final bank transfer. One of the reasons for my speculation that it wasn’t MB making the withdrawals. Telling SL she may not hear from her for a little while does not equate to 11 weeks. That is a very long time. Time enough for SL to know something was very very wrong.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

I could imagine AKA being able to hold MB off making contact with her kids for a couple of weeks - but definitely not the 11 weeks between her return and the final bank transfer. One of the reasons for my speculation that it wasn’t MB making the withdrawals. Telling SL she may not hear from her for a little while does not equate to 11 weeks. That is a very long time. Time enough for SL to know something was very very wrong.

I totally agree with this - that if M came back then she wasn't around for long at all. No way was it her taking the money and up until the final transfer.

IMO

 

[MrPickles]

Another thought - IF it wasn’t MB returning to Australia - and someone else using her FNMR passport. Wouldn’t it prove more compelling evidence to fulfil the RUSE that MB wanted to ‘start a new life and have nothing more to do with her children’ if her passport was to leave the country again to begin that ‘new life’?

Returning to Australia for a purported 8 days that ends up being 11 weeks then no further trace whatsoever…. If MB wanted disappear - Or if someone wanted to complete the ruse - One would think her passport would’ve returned to Europe.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Another thought - IF it wasn’t MB returning to Australia - and someone else using her FNMR passport. Wouldn’t it prove more compelling evidence to fulfil the RUSE that MB wanted to ‘start a new life and have nothing more to do with her children’ if her passport was to leave the country again to begin that ‘new life’?

Returning to Australia for a purported 8 days that ends up being 11 weeks then no further trace whatsoever…. If MB wanted disappear - Or if someone wanted to complete the ruse - One would think her passport would’ve returned to Europe.

Yep why would AKA let a perfectly good and hard earned passport go to waste and never be used again for future scams? Because he knew it was too hot to handle and all links to M had to be got shot urgently.

 

[mishy66]

Yep why would AKA let a perfectly good and hard earned passport go to waste and never be used again for future scams? Because he knew it was too hot to handle and all links to M had to be got shot urgently.

Maybe the passport coming in was the ruse. No one knew Marion had the FNMR passport. It was only SL friend who found the connection. IF SL had no friend to help in that department, and given HOW SLACK the Governing Depts were, maybe no one would have picked up it was one and the same person, HAD there not been a daughter who would go to every avenue to search for her, why would anyone be looking for a FNMR passport???

Maybe the passport coming in and never going back out was the ruse. He had done his job and the reward was massive. One of the biggest hauls by one victim from what we know of so far.

Maybe he didnt need to onsell the passport. Maybe he already had another victim OS that came in on that passport under that name. IF that did happen maybe she wanted entry into Australia and he made it happen.
OR it was someone he knew who was already there.

DdeH told the inquest, aside from M wedding in Bali, she had never been back overseas since the 1980s.
YET here we are now with him taking the kids to CdeH dentist in the mid 90s...... I CAN'T imagine him finally growing a daddy heart for the kids he never spent time with all their life and flying with them ALONE to Belgium to get their teeth fixed.

No, there is so much more to DdeH. She knows so much more. IMO

Get her on that stand in court !