Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #22

[KathPlumber]

MB dentist also signed off on her new name on her PP
The dentist said he vaguely remembered the FR name because it was unique but couldn't remember MB even though she was a patient of his.

The comment that he remembered it vaguely because it was unique gave me a little smile because it was stated by a guy whose name was Walduck!

(Well, according to the Coroner’s findings anyway. @gymtonic was pretty sure his name was Waldock!)

Apparently around that time he witnessed many applications for passports and the findings say Marion's application may have “simply been brought into his practice” and he may have “looked up Marion's details in order to determine whether he knew her for the requisite period of 3 years.” I do find this all rather vague.

Kinda weird that he couldn’t remember her but I am also that kinda person who remembers everyone so. Since she was his patient already I guess he wasn’t a plant who helped AKA out.
(Waldock is a name of Dutch origin, according to Ancestry/23 and me!)

 

[KathPlumber]

Round and Round the mulberry bush!

Setting a place for V. Ware yet again. All roads led to 'ware' is he....

@Lord Peter Flimsy Dover hits the nail on the head yet again.

Getting late here, will have to follow this one up Tamarrow

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

So who do you think flew in on the Flora Bella passport? I have always doubted it was Marion making the withdrawals.

IMHO. A woman Aka could trust to mimic Marion.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I have forgotten how this played out, please help!
At Point 124 of the Coroner’s Findings Report, stating that JL of the Federal Police informed GC of Byron Bay Police that MB had returned to Australia on the 2 August 1997 …… how was this known as MB (left and) returned on the Florabella Remakel passport and this name was unknown at the time?

IMHO nobody ever spoke to the real Marion. What was supposed to be her contact number when she allegedly returned to Australia?

 

[KathPlumber]

The comment that he remembered it vaguely because it was unique gave me a little smile because it was stated by a guy whose name was Walduck!

(Well, according to the Coroner’s findings anyway. @gymtonic was pretty sure his name was Waldock!)

Apparently around that time he witnessed many applications for passports and the findings say Marion's application may have “simply been brought into his practice” and he may have “looked up Marion's details in order to determine whether he knew her for the requisite period of 3 years.” I do find this all rather vague.

Kinda weird that he couldn’t remember her but I am also that kinda person who remembers everyone so. Since she was his patient already I guess he wasn’t a plant who helped AKA out.
(Waldock is a name of Dutch origin, according to Ancestry/23 and me!)

fixed link

 

[KathPlumber]

IMHO nobody ever spoke to the real Marion. What was supposed to be her contact number when she allegedly returned to Australia?

But I think, if I’m reading what @Liselle meant correctly, the query was about how the AFP were able to tell GC of the BB Police on 22 Oct 1997 that Marion had returned on 2 August 1997 when she did so on her Florabella passport and the connection hadn’t yet been made regarding the name change. how did the AFP find her details?

I do remember discussion about this and whether the passport system would have been sophisticated enough to have linked the two identities even if the names were different, so it was more that there was a record of her identity coming back in to the country regardless of its name and I think people concluded that it was possible? Using birthdate, place of birth etc they found a record of her but it didn’t include her name. (Seems like another example of GC selective memory and recording skills imo) Is this what you meant Liselle?

 

[mishy66]

Point 76 of Coroner’s Findings - IIRC, MB's application for Change of Name, was presented and shown on the AV screen during the hearings. It was witnessed and signed by two females (possibly teacher colleagues) which IMO, differs from there being no evidence that anyone was aware of this. Any recollections??

I think the witnesses were Admin staff at the Public Trustees Office

 

[mishy66]

The comment that he remembered it vaguely because it was unique gave me a little smile because it was stated by a guy whose name was Walduck!

(Well, according to the Coroner’s findings anyway. @gymtonic was pretty sure his name was Waldock!)

Apparently around that time he witnessed many applications for passports and the findings say Marion's application may have “simply been brought into his practice” and he may have “looked up Marion's details in order to determine whether he knew her for the requisite period of 3 years.” I do find this all rather vague.

Kinda weird that he couldn’t remember her but I am also that kinda person who remembers everyone so. Since she was his patient already I guess he wasn’t a plant who helped AKA out.
(Waldock is a name of Dutch origin, according to Ancestry/23 and me!)

Raymond John Waldock is his name.
As a dentist who has seen so many patients in his working life, it would be difficult to recall a patient some 2 decades later IMO

 

[mishy66]

IMHO nobody ever spoke to the real Marion. What was supposed to be her contact number when she allegedly returned to Australia?

yep, thats another reason I dont believe it was her.
She had no home, so no phone number to call her on -

 

[mishy66]

But I think, if I’m reading what @Liselle meant correctly, the query was about how the AFP were able to tell GC of the BB Police on 22 Oct 1997 that Marion had returned on 2 August 1997 when she did so on her Florabella passport and the connection hadn’t yet been made regarding the name change. how did the AFP find her details?

I do remember discussion about this and whether the passport system would have been sophisticated enough to have linked the two identities even if the names were different, so it was more that there was a record of her identity coming back in to the country regardless of its name and I think people concluded that it was possible? Using birthdate, place of birth etc they found a record of her but it didn’t include her name. (Seems like another example of GC selective memory and recording skills imo) Is this what you meant Liselle?

I think we answered this above - someone walked into the bank with her ID documents and withdrew money every day - some believe it was Marion herself - others believe it was someone else pretending to be her using her MB ID.

It had nothing to do with the FR passport - She had her account under the MB name - They said they had contacted "MARION" - how they did this is another story = impossible

In 2009 Sheehan took over the case.
SL didnt know about the name change until 2011 when Sheehan told her
He was told by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade that MB had changed her name.
Sheehan believed Barter had staged her own disappearance and took her off the missing persons list marking her as “located”. She was not reinstated until 2022.
The coroner found that “Sheehan should not have reclassified Marion as located in 2011”

 

[Liselle]

Points 233 & 235 of Coroner’s Findings - IMO, it is possible that MC obtained her (ex) husband's personal I.D. to be used nefariously by another "party". Taking into consideration, there was NO contact (I believe), between this "other party" and the real FR, for the opportunity to obtain his credentials.

 

[KathPlumber]

Raymond John Waldock is his name.
As a dentist who has seen so many patients in his working life, it would be difficult to recall a patient some 2 decades later IMO

Weird that there was a spelling mistake twice in the coroners findings, I’m a little sorry it’s not duck because that’s a pretty cool name

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Points 233 & 235 of Coroner’s Findings - IMO, it is possible that MC obtained her (ex) husband's personal I.D. to be used nefariously by another "party". Taking into consideration, there was NO contact (I believe), between this "other party" and the real FR, for the opportunity to obtain his credentials.

I know it’s been discussed before but MCs story to the journalist about getting her ex-husband to meet Aka and knowing Aka stole her ex-husband’s ID during that meeting raises a number of questions.

Such a shame MC refused to attend the inquest and that the TLV team that went to Luxembourg didn’t consider the possibility of a stolen identity when speaking to the real FR. Even so the interactions with the real FR still come across as slightly odd now that we know more.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Weird that there was a spelling mistake twice in the coroners findings, I’m a little sorry it’s not duck because that’s a pretty cool name

Did I imagine it but is there more about him obviously not to be discussed here?

The Coroner’s findings also spelling Southampton as South Hampton did make me roll my eyes. They had a ridiculous 9 months to get it right. No wonder this case is moving at snail’s pace.

 

[KathPlumber]

I

I think we answered this above - someone walked into the bank with her ID documents and withdrew money every day - some believe it was Marion herself - others believe it was someone else pretending to be her using her MB ID.

It had nothing to do with the FR passport - She had her account under the MB name - They said they had contacted "MARION" - how they did this is another story = impossible

In 2009 Sheehan took over the case.
SL didnt know about the name change until 2011 when Sheehan told her
He was told by the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade that MB had changed her name.
Sheehan believed Barter had staged her own disappearance and took her off the missing persons list marking her as “located”. She was not reinstated until 2022.
The coroner found that “Sheehan should not have reclassified Marion as located in 2011”

Yep I totally am in agreement with you that imho someone was fraudulently withdrawing her money using her documents or her card or both.

I likewise agree it’s BS that cops/bank staff/anyone ever spoke to Marion and she told them she wanted to be left alone. I agree with what I’ve read you say before about the bank staff and Links to other players in this story.

I swear im not being daft about this, I just thought that the original question was about something different, not about the inquiry to the bank but about the inquiry on the same day to the AFP because Lisette mentioned specifically finding 124:

“Counsel Assisting and the Family both submitted that it was likely Mr Childs who made the inquiries with John Lewis from the Australian Federal Police on 22 October 1997 [the same day they reported her missing/ GC recorded an ‘occurrence’] in BB and was informed that Marion had returned to Australia on 2 August 1997. Sally gave considerable evidence on the topic of how and when she was informed that her mother had returned from overseas. Counsel Assisting and the Family also both submitted that it was likely that it was Mr Childs who informed Sally that her mother had returned to Australia on 2 August 1997 (either on 22 October or on a later date in a telephone call).

Mr Childs submitted that there is insufficient evidence to support a finding that he was the person who contacted Australian Federal Police officer, John Lewis, and that he informed Sally that Marion had returned to Australia either on 22 October 1997 or subsequently.

The COPS records show that Mr Childs made two 'action' entries in the COPS system at 2:40pm, stating that he had made enquiries with the State Bank Byron Bay and that he had made enquiries with Mr Lewis at the Australian Federal Police. He had a period of 82 minutes in which he could have don this, between 1:15pm and 2:37 pm.

124. [This was the bit Lisette asked about] Accordingly, I accept that it was Mr Childs who made the inquiries with Mr Lewis from the Australian Federal Police on 22 October 1997 and was informed that Marion had returned to Australia on 2 August 1997.”

I thought the question was, essentially, how did the AFP know that she returned? The name change wasn’t known yet. There was discussion about this at some point. The AFP couldn’t have gotten the return date of Aug 2 from the bank - could they? That’s a separate line of enquiry, and the date was based on what?

The findings don’t illuminate as to whether John Lewis is dead or ever existed and I I recall speculation here as to whether her passport would have registered with the AFP despite name change or whether GC maybe just made it up and entered it in there. Moo.

Maybe the AFP don’t disclose how they knew things like that back then.

 

[KathPlumber]

Did I imagine it but is there more about him obviously not to be discussed here?

The Coroner’s findings also spelling Southampton as South Hampton did make me roll my eyes. They had a ridiculous 9 months to get it right. No wonder this case is moving at snail’s pace.

Yeah that’s what I was trying to ask, this case makes me so paranoid because every man turns out to be 5 terriers in a trench coat, and the trench coat belongs to aka.

South Hampton! I assume it’s some overworked court clerk typing all these up but in truth we also don’t have great literacy levels in this country

 

[KinseyFan]

I

Yep I totally am in agreement with you that imho someone was fraudulently withdrawing her money using her documents or her card or both.

I likewise agree it’s BS that cops/bank staff/anyone ever spoke to Marion and she told them she wanted to be left alone. I agree with what I’ve read you say before about the bank staff and Links to other players in this story.

I swear im not being daft about this, I just thought that the original question was about something different, not about the inquiry to the bank but about the inquiry on the same day to the AFP because Lisette mentioned specifically finding 124:

“Counsel Assisting and the Family both submitted that it was likely Mr Childs who made the inquiries with John Lewis from the Australian Federal Police on 22 October 1997 [the same day they reported her missing/ GC recorded an ‘occurrence’] in BB and was informed that Marion had returned to Australia on 2 August 1997. Sally gave considerable evidence on the topic of how and when she was informed that her mother had returned from overseas. Counsel Assisting and the Family also both submitted that it was likely that it was Mr Childs who informed Sally that her mother had returned to Australia on 2 August 1997 (either on 22 October or on a later date in a telephone call).

Mr Childs submitted that there is insufficient evidence to support a finding that he was the person who contacted Australian Federal Police officer, John Lewis, and that he informed Sally that Marion had returned to Australia either on 22 October 1997 or subsequently.

The COPS records show that Mr Childs made two 'action' entries in the COPS system at 2:40pm, stating that he had made enquiries with the State Bank Byron Bay and that he had made enquiries with Mr Lewis at the Australian Federal Police. He had a period of 82 minutes in which he could have don this, between 1:15pm and 2:37 pm.

124. [This was the bit Lisette asked about] Accordingly, I accept that it was Mr Childs who made the inquiries with Mr Lewis from the Australian Federal Police on 22 October 1997 and was informed that Marion had returned to Australia on 2 August 1997.”

I thought the question was, essentially, how did the AFP know that she returned? The name change wasn’t known yet. There was discussion about this at some point. The AFP couldn’t have gotten the return date of Aug 2 from the bank - could they? That’s a separate line of enquiry, and the date was based on what?

The findings don’t illuminate as to whether John Lewis is dead or ever existed and I I recall speculation here as to whether her passport would have registered with the AFP despite name change or whether GC maybe just made it up and entered it in there. Moo.

Maybe the AFP don’t disclose how they knew things like that back then.

I was about to write that the Homicide squad will get this information (?!) but then saw they haven’t even updated their Missing Person info yet! Source:

Suspicious disappearance of Marion Barter - NSW Police Public Site

www.police.nsw.gov.au

 

[mishy66]

Weird that there was a spelling mistake twice in the coroners findings, I’m a little sorry it’s not duck because that’s a pretty cool name

There's lots of spelling errors in it. Wooters was another one.
I guess like everyone else, we all make spellimg errors! I know I do !

 

[mishy66]

I know it’s been discussed before but MCs story to the journalist about getting her ex-husband to meet Aka and knowing Aka stole her ex-husband’s ID during that meeting raises a number of questions.

Such a shame MC refused to attend the inquest and that the TLV team that went to Luxembourg didn’t consider the possibility of a stolen identity when speaking to the real FR. Even so the interactions with the real FR still come across as slightly odd now that we know more.

Totally. Totally. Totally!

 

[mishy66]

Did I imagine it but is there more about him obviously not to be discussed here?

The Coroner’s findings also spelling Southampton as South Hampton did make me roll my eyes. They had a ridiculous 9 months to get it right. No wonder this case is moving at snail’s pace.

Yep so many spelling errors throughout it.

Maybe A1 ?