Australia Australia - Marion Barter - Missing After Trip to UK - June 1997 #23

[Candytuft]

Ghislain phoned her own Doctor to arrange a liver test. AH was there at the time and was aggressively insistent about it.

 

[mishy66]

Organ harvesting? Seems a bit of a reach IMO but just putting it out there.

Another idea re the tests is that he actually wanted to ensure the longevity of his victim and make sure they weren't likely to pass away in a hurry whilst he perpetrated his scam.

Perhaps he was particularly anxious about liver failure for personal reasons although according to my cursory research, acute liver failure is sudden onset with no prior warning and can be fatal within 48 hours.

Another idea is if the tests were privately conducted, he was simply coercing his victims into spending money on an associate who does this testing, building a relationship with that person making it look as it he were a man of influence and power who could send trade his way, maybe taking a cut of the fee charged. How much even is a liver test and where were they being done?

No to organise harvesting. Thats out of the ball park.

I like your thinking in the likelihood of sudden death if anyone does have liver issues. Timing would be key for him for sure.

Not sure about relationship building with associates and drumming up trade for buddies. I dont think the costs are very much.

I guess Im thinking if the tests show the liver is healthy and the long term benefits of him using small amounts of insulin as a means to an end for any victim that has no family ties to that person. ?? Is that a possibility of how insulin could work?
Anyone a diabetic that could answer here?

It could be the time if takes to have these tests??? Giving him time to ransack the victims homes prior to their loved up trips?
He does seem to have a lot of time to gather victims personal treasure without them knowing.
Is it the time factor of these liver tests?
To and from a pathology lab for bloods could give him at least a good hour?

Anyone know if it's just a blood test involved or is it a series of tests?

 

[mishy66]

Ghislain phoned her own Doctor to arrange a liver test. AH was there at the time and was aggressively insistent about it.

Yes, he does seem to really want these tests done.

Is it a timing thing? They are out of their homes for at least a good hour or so? Maybe he adds on some sort of buying trip. Darling get these groceries while you are out and I will make us dinner. That gives him ample time to search for treasure.
Maybe the tests aren't about health but more about getting them out of their own home.

But why a liver function test?
He could send them for any type of blood test. But he chooses liver.

 

[Candytuft]

I wouldn't have thought a liver test would take very long, but yes it would buy valuable time. Maybe if the test revealed a compromised liver and a poison he used targeted it then it might give him an idea of how much to use and then as the body metabolizes the poison it may not be so detectable by pathological examination. I imagine that to poison by insulin ( unless it's by overdose) - so bit by bit would take too long for him. He just wants to grab their assets as quickly as possible and run.
I know nothing about poisons just wondering.

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Would he have a relation who is medically trained that he might be able to glean information on liver function tests in order to use this to his advantage?

 

[mishy66]

Would he have a relation who is medically trained that he might be able to glean information on liver function tests in order to use this to his advantage?

@Lord Peter Flimsy love your thinking!
I don't know about him, but I do know Diane does

 

[Carovb5]

Yes, he does seem to really want these tests done.

Is it a timing thing? They are out of their homes for at least a good hour or so? Maybe he adds on some sort of buying trip. Darling get these groceries while you are out and I will make us dinner. That gives him ample time to search for treasure.
Maybe the tests aren't about health but more about getting them out of their own home.

But why a liver function test?
He could send them for any type of blood test. But he chooses liver.

Thinking outside the box here : Would he make them take the test, to “rule out an std”, as an excuse not to sleep with them (cause he isn’t interested in them but in what he can gain from them)?? Or does he have like an agreement with his partner (“go ahead, get us the money, but no s*x alloud”)?? Or unaible to & buying himself time (maybe the ‘orse’ got him there too).

“Hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis C are all contagious infections that affect the liver. ”

Common STD symptoms

Learn about symptoms of some of the more common diseases that can be passed through sex.

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

Thinking outside the box here : Would he make them take the test, to “rule out an std”, as an excuse not to sleep with them (cause he isn’t interested in them but in what he can gain from them)?? Or does he have like an agreement with his partner (“go ahead, get us the money, but no s*x alloud”)?? Or unaible to & buying himself time (maybe the ‘orse’ got him there too).

“Hepatitis A, hepatitis B and hepatitis C are all contagious infections that affect the liver. ”

Common STD symptoms

Learn about symptoms of some of the more common diseases that can be passed through sex.

www.mayoclinic.org

It’s interesting because we get conflicting witness statements on such intimacy from JO and GG-B.

Shame he never encountered Lorena Bobbitt!

 

[KathPlumber]

Where are the doctors on here, we need them, Lol. Yes, I think liver function tests are usually blood - and assume it was the same in the 90s? Although if there was an issue then you might have a biopsy?

I always assumed it was like the hair dye appointment: a chance to get them out of the way for a while. But if it was only blood tests, even in the 90s that was pretty quick.

Insulin poisoning is fiendishly hard to detect, would be a good way to do it if you had access to some insulin.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

Did he send them to get tested for sexually transmitted infections and HIV etc?

A quick google shows that a liver test can pick up viral hepatitis which is spread by intimate contact - maybe he was anxious about disease because of his wife?

 

[mishy66]

Did he send them to get tested for sexually transmitted infections and HIV etc?

A quick google shows that a liver test can pick up viral hepatitis which is spread by intimate contact - maybe he was anxious about disease because of his wife?

I think this is the most likely, yes.

For Blue Willy *wouters who seemed to pick and choose his adventures when it came to his bed companions, it may be possible that it WASNT for HIS benefit, that he insisted on these tests if it was for STD, but maybe the benefit of his dutiful wife

2 birds with one stone perhaps?

The tests themselves MAY take minutes, but its the going to and coming back that gives him opportunity! Get your tests, get our food for dinner, get the wine.....1 to 2 hours out of the house.

Gets them out of the house to steal their treasure, after all, every single one of them had treasure stolen without them knowing at the time they were with him. He goes back when they are out to rob what he can.

The wife, - "don't sleep with them" , "just steal from them".

AH, - "In case I do get randy like my gendarme 'orse once did, I'll get them to get tested in case they have STDs, and my wife doesn't get wind of my discretions".

After all, the of the victims have been "single" , and possibly had previous companions. We know Marion did.


I think this is the most likely reason he asks for these liver tests.

I'm not convinced he used any poisons on anyone TBH.

I think he used that story about tasteless poison in yogurt on ER, to frighten the hell out of her. Frightened her enough to take a bottle of champagne he bought for her, to the police and report him. It made her sound like she was delusional and this is exactly his tactics on women. A perfect narcissist. Nothing to see here, I'm a respectful married man, these women are being outrageous officer.

The interest he has in any macabre is well documented in a previous discussion on MBFB regarding his relative.

His interest in the poison book that one of his victims relative spoke of, potentially used that book on victim to show how much he knew about poisons. Another scare tactic perhaps?

I keep going back to BS question to him after one of the court days,
BS , "do you feel sorry for the daughter of MB".
AH, "No I feel sorry for myself ".

Narcissist, definitely.
Murderer, I do have my doubts.

Scares / threatens / bribes, them enough to stay away from him at the end of his goal.

Nothing to see here officer, these women without husbands are mad.

JMO

 

[Carovb5]

Did he send them to get tested for sexually transmitted infections and HIV etc?

A quick google shows that a liver test can pick up viral hepatitis which is spread by intimate contact - maybe he was anxious about disease because of his wife?

The link for this info is 2 posts above yours.

 

[CuriousKat99]

Interesting discussion re the liver function tests.

I find it hard to believe that he got them doing these tests just to buy time. Surely, there are so many more simple ways to buy time like sending them off to the hairdresser etc.

Insulin used as a murder weapon: As far as I am aware, insulin needs to be injected, not that convenient for someone who was not a medical professional. Even if you are associated with a medical professional, it’s hardly the kind of task that you would want to outsource. There would be plenty of other less cumbersome ways to do the deed.

Potassium cyanide: Definitely fatal and appears to be much easier to administer than insulin. I couldn’t find anything suggesting that liver function would affect its toxicity, however.

There are plenty of other ways to get rid of somebody cleanly. Is there some other poison that works best on a fully functioning liver?

Testing for STDs? Possibly to ensure DdH continued to believe the business was just robbery and nothing more.

I’m not ready to rule out murder. After all, where is Marion? The evidence doesn’t indicate suicide. According to the available evidence, only one person is associated with Marion’s final months before the trail goes silent. That person has tried to redirect the focus on himself by providing accounts of her being with other individuals (eg the pilot) during this time, but when investigated, these accounts can’t be verified by any other person or any other evidence. As per the inquest findings, this one person likely knows a lot more about Marion’s final months than he has shared so far.

 

[mishy66]

It is an interesting sideline to his dealings isn't it.
Why send them for this particular testing?

With the women we know of, from Marion back in 1997 to AT LEAST 2006, he requests these particular liver tests.

For my thinking, it is to check on any STD's prior to any bed romance for Blue Willy *wouters, should it get that far - after all he still has his "innocent and dutiful" wife at home.


1. We can see in Marions case, the tests where done early May. I think it was said they initially met February 1997 - gives him time to line up his ducks for her - and giving him time to bewitch Marion, May seemed like a reasonable time to request to your soon to be bed partner, a liver functioning test for any STD /STI 's . It serves the purpose to protect the said wife and to get them out of their house.

2. It would be easier to get them out of their own house by asking them to go shopping or the hairdressers for sure. But one would presume women would have already been looking their best for their new lover in the lead up to the romance step ?
A couple of the victims described how agreeable he was to their requests. " He never said no to anything I wanted to do". He happily obliged to anything.

Him demanding Dr appointments for said tests, only weeks prior to their travels with him, would be a drawcard for him having already established himself into their home with trust and ease.

3. He has to have a good amount of time to himself in their homes to collect their treasure that they have realised only later, he had stolen. A Dr visit would serve two great purposes for him. Safety in sex and the pirate treasure.
A Dr's appointment brings with it assurity that the victim will be gone for a considerable amount of time. It also assures that the victim wont be disturbing him by calling him up.

The poison interest is another one that could be used to create fear.

Or it could be part of his MO.
But having said that, of all the women we know of so far, NOT ONE of them have mentioned being poisoned or hospitalised for such.

ONLY E.R. talked of being fearful of him after his talk to her about how to kill someone.
And one of the victims family members told how he found a book AH had on posions in the home of the victim. One of the victims family didn't want to eat the meal he cooked.

All fear mongering tactics of a monster IMO.

Potassium cyanide used for cleaning coins is something he would have in his kit for sure. And he would know only a drop would be needed.

Insulin is associated to Liver Function Tests - one of the tests used if you have diabetes and the tests are also used for patients who have pancreatic cancer. Pancreatic cancer can lead to a patient having diabetes.

Dianes mother died from it in 1988 after a 2 yr diagnosis.

Actually, mentioning Dags has reminded me about her brother and his career.

For me personally, this whole case is as much to do with her family as it is to do with his.

I dont think it was an accident that they married.

I dont even think that they met on the Chusan and locked eyes back then, and she waited and "wrote to him" for 4 years when he was in prison.

" I knew him as WW but called him Ric on the ship." - "I wrote to him when he went to prison after meeting him 4 yrs earlier" - how did you do that Diane??

You said you only knew him as WW but called him Ric - NO Diane you met him as Fredy David and told the court he was WW, because he came into Australia under the false passport of Fredy David.

He used the name Fredy David on the passenger card and lived not far from yourself and that of your own family at that time...... so what name did you use to address his letters to him in prison in France for 4 years???? He told the court he lived with you and your family, but he didnt did he.

NO I think you met him yrs later when he perhaps worked with your father in the Real Estate game and your daughter was named after that ship because of the synchronicity of you both being on that ship back in 1971.

Synchronicity has been your lifelong adventure.

Dags family is another tangled octopus just like his. So much so, I am now beginning to think that his family and that of Dianes are connected through a marriage somewhere down the line. Yes'em.

Her brother was a Dr, a Nuclear Radiologist actually. Another criminal who was deregistered after years of malpractice claims.

VERY VERY handy to have all of these Drs in the family isn't that right Blue Willy*wouters.

That side of her family are all crooks too. And one in particular would be very profitable for BW* wouters.

ATM everyone seems to be hiding.
The daughter is using her middle name. The son is using the mothers maiden name and Renov Pubs for all its purposes is still rising amongst the ashes.

Does anyone know that if you bought shares in an offshore company business using your own shell company, lets say the shell company is called Renov Pubs, then sell back those shares and bank the profit overseas in another name, is that called tax evasion here in Australia .......

Sorry I know its a lot here but hopefully you will pick up on what I am saying without stating the obvious.

Diane Walker deHedervary - *nothing to see here* , says the dutiful wife.

Have police actually looked into her parents deaths???? I mean they really need it. Her crook of a father had the same heart problem IK suddenly died from.

Synchronicity is a crooks best friend.

 

[HinterlandObserver]

Interesting discussion re the liver function tests.

I find it hard to believe that he got them doing these tests just to buy time. Surely, there are so many more simple ways to buy time like sending them off to the hairdresser etc.

Insulin used as a murder weapon: As far as I am aware, insulin needs to be injected, not that convenient for someone who was not a medical professional. Even if you are associated with a medical professional, it’s hardly the kind of task that you would want to outsource. There would be plenty of other less cumbersome ways to do the deed.

Potassium cyanide: Definitely fatal and appears to be much easier to administer than insulin. I couldn’t find anything suggesting that liver function would affect its toxicity, however.

There are plenty of other ways to get rid of somebody cleanly. Is there some other poison that works best on a fully functioning liver?

Testing for STDs? Possibly to ensure DdH continued to believe the business was just robbery and nothing more.

I’m not ready to rule out murder. After all, where is Marion? The evidence doesn’t indicate suicide. According to the available evidence, only one person is associated with Marion’s final months before the trail goes silent. That person has tried to redirect the focus on himself by providing accounts of her being with other individuals (eg the pilot) during this time, but when investigated, these accounts can’t be verified by any other person or any other evidence. As per the inquest findings, this one person likely knows a lot more about Marion’s final months than he has shared so far.

The only other thing that comes to mind is people causing nicotine poisoning with patches by applying when the victim is asleep.

 

[brjakj]

For those that subscribe on Apple Podcasts - episode 2 is out

 

[mishy66]

Interesting about Marions Superannuation being withdrawn. Was that a thing pre 2000's ?
There was a provision that workers in Federal Government could withdraw their entire superannuation if they were relocating to Overseas but was this also applied to State Government employees


An overview showed this:
.......withdrawing superannuation to live overseas likely resulted in a lump-sum payment subject to tax, with a portion potentially being tax-free depending on the rules in place at that time. Specifically, pre-July 1, 1983, untaxed contributions were tax-free when withdrawn as a lump sum. It's also worth noting that the rules around superannuation and residency have evolved since.



and this.....
"The Coalition Government has also strengthened the preservation rules, so that all superannuation contributions from 1 July 1999, including personal contributions and earnings, generally are preserved until preservation age (currently 55, but progressively increasing to 60). These arrangements replaced measures proposed by the former Labor Government in 1994 to counteract double dipping and excessive leakage from the superannuation system, which had been twice deferred.

The early release of superannuation benefits had previously been allowed under a variety of circumstances, including: retirement due to permanent incapacity; permanent departure from Australia......."


Its a slog reading through it but here is the link

Its under the heading of :

Keating / Monobrow Howard era

Further refinement of the SG system​

Article 3 - Towards higher retirement incomes for Australians: a history of the Australian retirement income system since Federation | Treasury.gov.au



treasury.gov.au

 

[BreakingNews]

Interesting about Marions Superannuation being withdrawn. Was that a thing pre 2000's ?
There was a provision that workers in Federal Government could withdraw their entire superannuation if they were relocating to Overseas but was this also applied to State Government employees


An overview showed this:
.......withdrawing superannuation to live overseas likely resulted in a lump-sum payment subject to tax, with a portion potentially being tax-free depending on the rules in place at that time. Specifically, pre-July 1, 1983, untaxed contributions were tax-free when withdrawn as a lump sum. It's also worth noting that the rules around superannuation and residency have evolved since.



and this.....
"The Coalition Government has also strengthened the preservation rules, so that all superannuation contributions from 1 July 1999, including personal contributions and earnings, generally are preserved until preservation age (currently 55, but progressively increasing to 60). These arrangements replaced measures proposed by the former Labor Government in 1994 to counteract double dipping and excessive leakage from the superannuation system, which had been twice deferred.

The early release of superannuation benefits had previously been allowed under a variety of circumstances, including: retirement due to permanent incapacity; permanent departure from Australia......."


Its a slog reading through it but here is the link

Its under the heading of :

Keating / Monobrow Howard era

Further refinement of the SG system​

Article 3 - Towards higher retirement incomes for Australians: a history of the Australian retirement income system since Federation | Treasury.gov.au



treasury.gov.au

In the early 1990's the Federal govt changed their super system. I was able to withdraw and close the entire amount (paid heaps of tax on it) from the old fund.

 

[mishy66]

In the early 1990's the Federal govt changed their super system. I was able to withdraw and close the entire amount (paid heaps of tax on it) from the old fund.

The link is in my post

 

[mishy66]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed at the request of the member>

I hope that there are facts / truths, forthcoming because so much of this case has been full of lies and untruths and the public who have supported and followed this case for years, including monetary support, deserve the truth.

There's been a lot of untruths and that has damaged the reputation of many.