Australia - Martin Place siege: 2 Hostages killed in Lindt Chocolate shop, Dec 2014 - #2

[drsleuth]

Ex-championship tennis player John O'Brien (85 year old man) was the first hostage that enabled himself and some others to escape ... interesting read. He is convinced the gunman was insane, and the gunman had barricaded himself behind chairs and tables with 3 women standing in front of them providing a human shield from the snipers.


"O'Brien said he stood with his hands on the window for 30 minutes, or maybe 45 — it was hard to tell — before telling the gunman how old he was and saying he needed to sit down.

Monis complained but relented, allowing O'Brien and a few others to sit.

O'Brien quietly slipped out of his seat and sat on the floor. He'd noticed a small gap between the wall and a large advertising placard .... He struggled, trying several times and failing. Finally, he made it through. Now the placard was obscuring him from the gunman. He lay down, looking up at a large green button. But he wasn't sure if it would open the glass doors.

He reached up and pushed the green button and a moment later, at 3:37 pm, he was free."

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-si...ded-to-make-a-run-for-it-20141217-128wcu.html

Thank god the button opened the doors, how brave........:escape:

 

[Archangel7]

Please don't blame the sniper ( who had his eyes & sniper gun in the gunman for a whole 16+ hours without wavering ) or all the brilliant , courageous police. There are many articles & expert people speaking on why they didn't take the gun man out via a sniper. They are linked in previous pages.

Thanks.
Sniper teams are much more than trained killers. They provide overwatch for the rest of the teams, provide instant and streaming intel to the incident command and team leader and sometimes have a pretty good view of and input on best entry path for the team. We were usually not off leash sitting on a Green Light, especially when negotiations are ongoing.

All teams practice barrier penetration and there are obviously nuances and tactics about that which will remain proprietary. Sniper interdiction is and should be the last option in a commander's toolkit. I did see some issues/concerns WRT barrier penetration but again I am going on video angle and not what the team was seeing.

It APPEARED(I wasn't there, nor have I seen all video)that there was an EAT in place( Emergency Action Team) while the negotiations were ongoing and the DAT(Deliberate Action Team) was being readied for eventual entry.

It looked like something initiated the terrorist's response and the EAT had to respond/react instantly and spontaneously.

All teams know or should know that a lone gunman with many hostages gets flakey after about 12 hours of stress and 17 hours is a long time for a public place like that. Possibly there were still negotiations, the problem is with that many hostages, there is a good chance someone may try him. After all 17 hours is a long time to wait on help, with a relatively constant dribble of hostages escaping.

I can promise this tho...all are professional and were concentrated on the task at hand, weapons hot, where I am in the stack, the fatal funnel, field of fire, gunman location/hostage location.

God Bless each and everyone of them.

 

[drsleuth]

Thanks.
Sniper teams are much more than trained killers. They provide overwatch for the rest of the teams, provide instant and streaming intel to the incident command and team leader and sometimes have a pretty good view of and input on best entry path for the team. We were usually not off leash sitting on a Green Light, especially when negotiations are ongoing.

All teams practice barrier penetration and there are obviously nuances and tactics about that which will remain proprietary. Sniper interdiction is and should be the last option in a commander's toolkit. I did see some issues/concerns WRT barrier penetration but again I am going on video angle and not what the team was seeing.

It APPEARED(I wasn't there, nor have I seen all video)that there was an EAT in place( Emergency Action Team) while the negotiations were ongoing and the DAT(Deliberate Action Team) was being readied for eventual entry.

It looked like something initiated the terrorist's response and the EAT had to respond/react instantly and spontaneously.

All teams know or should know that a lone gunman with many hostages gets flakey after about 12 hours of stress and 17 hours is a long time for a public place like that. Possibly there were still negotiations, the problem is with that many hostages, there is a good chance someone may try him. After all 17 hours is a long time to wait on help, with a relatively constant dribble of hostages escaping.

I can promise this tho...all are professional and were concentrated on the task at hand, weapons hot, where I am in the stack, the fatal funnel, field of fire, gunman location/hostage location.

God Bless each and everyone of them.

:clap::goodpost::tyou:

I wish I could personally thank every law enforcement officer who was involved .......thanks for all you guys do to keep the public as safe as possible :loveyou:

 

[Brightbird]

Please don't blame the sniper ( who had his eyes & sniper gun in the gunman for a whole 16+ hours without wavering ) or all the brilliant , courageous police. There are many articles & expert people speaking on why they didn't take the gun man out via a sniper. They are linked in previous pages.

Here a links

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/how-sydne...s-a-bomb-in-his-backpack-20141217-129fqi.html

Watch the video in above link.

From your link. It would seem he did shoot at least one of the hostages.

"We've been told in those terrifying seconds that the police stormed in the Lindt cafe, Haron Monis was heard to scream 'Look what you've made me do!' before the police shot him down," Reason said.

ETA This was meant to support sleepinoz's post above with the deleted article

 

[emirates1957]

:clap::goodpost::tyou:

I wish I could personally thank every law enforcement officer who was involved .......thanks for all you guys do to keep the public as safe as possible :loveyou:

Same here, I got goose bumps every time I saw one of the LE officers. Wow what amazing men and women - I felt so proud of them.

 

[Brightbird]

This footage was from one of the camera crews and there is quite clearly a gun shot within the cafe before the police stormed in.


[video=youtube;66ji9pen23g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ji9pen23g[/video]

 

[Belz]

Not sure if this has been discussed or is allowed to be discussed as it could be incorrect but someone mentioned that the Lindt store used to be a bank (toughened glass) which may be why he picked this as his place... Anyone know if this is the case? A chocolate shop just seems to random...

 

[Belz]

This footage was from one of the camera crews and there is quite clearly a gun shot within the cafe before the police stormed in.


[video=youtube;66ji9pen23g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66ji9pen23g[/video]

I wish I didn't watch that, I feel sick to the stomach now

 

[drsleuth]

From Nicole @ Australian Missing Persons

https://www.facebook.com/austmissin...9702762472925/647430732033460/?type=1&theater

I now have the details for those who would like to send cards to Tori Johnson's family. Please note that this address is NOT that of a family member, it has been carefully considered and chosen and organised to maintain the family's privacy and security (but this appeal has been approved by his family). Please send cards to - 5 Orchard St, Baulkham Hills, NSW, 2153. You can address the cards to "The family of Tori Johnson" or his family's names have been made public - his dad is Ken, his Mum is Rowena, his partner is Thomas and his stepfather is Daniel.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Not sure if this has been discussed or is allowed to be discussed as it could be incorrect but someone mentioned that the Lindt store used to be a bank (toughened glass) which may be why he picked this as his place... Anyone know if this is the case? A chocolate shop just seems to random...

Yes I heard that too, and that the glass was plated also that Lindt was targeted for not being Halal certified ..

A large amount of seemingly unfounded social media speculation has suggested that the Lindt Chocolate Café in Sydney was targeted because the Swiss company is not Halal-certified. Its name features on a website listing such companies, Australia’s Sunshine Coast Daily reported, that has been part of a long-running anti-Halal campaign in the country.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/sydney-cafe-siege-britain-first-blames-australia-terror-attack-on-mass-immigration-and-fact-lindt-isnt-halalcertified-9929224.html

 

[sleepinoz]

From Nicole @ Australian Missing Persons

https://www.facebook.com/austmissin...9702762472925/647430732033460/?type=1&theater

I now have the details for those who would like to send cards to Tori Johnson's family. Please note that this address is NOT that of a family member, it has been carefully considered and chosen and organised to maintain the family's privacy and security (but this appeal has been approved by his family). Please send cards to - 5 Orchard St, Baulkham Hills, NSW, 2153. You can address the cards to "The family of Tori Johnson" or his family's names have been made public - his dad is Ken, his Mum is Rowena, his partner is Thomas and his stepfather is Daniel.

There is also an address for Katrina's Children:

https://www.facebook.com/austmissin...41827.509702762472925/647323762044157/?type=1

This beautiful idea comes from Steven Isles, son of missing QLD Police Officer Mick Isles.
CHRISTMAS CARDS FOR Oliver, Chloe and Sasha Dawson. Let them know we are all thinking of them.
At times of such tragedy we, Australians being the resilient people do what we do best and that is band together during someones time of need.
There is still time. When you are at the shops or the newsagent please buy a Christmas Card and send it to the three beautiful children Katrina Dawson leaves behind.
I have spoken with Sandy Dawson's [Katrina's brother] Clerk and commitment has been provided to deliver to Katrina's children all mail that arrives. Address cards to:
Oliver, Chloe & Sasha
Banco Chambers
Level 5/ 65 Martin Place
Sydney NSW 2000

 

[Estelle]

In the early hours of Tuesday morning, Sydney siege gunman Man Haron Monis was wide awake and agitated, the father of one hostage says.

Joel Herat, 21, has told his family Monis was starting to herd the frightened hostages into separate groups inside the Lindt cafe, raising fears they would "not survive until the morning if they did not do something".

Lawyer Bruce Herat, 52-year-old father of Joel, says his son's group of hostages decided to kick down an internal door of the Lindt cafe to make their escape.

It was this decisive action, his son believes, that triggered Monis unleashing the first volley of gunfire moments later.

In an exclusive interview with Fairfax Media, Mr Herat says son Joel told him Monis was not falling asleep just before 2am on Tuesday as previous reports have suggested, but was becoming increasingly agitated immediately before the first burst of gunfire rang out.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-si...22125194&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=MzYzOTY3

This is an extremely interesting account of what really happened.

The hostages broke down the door to flee cafe with gunman wide awake. In the middle of the night, six hostages decided the only way they would survive until morning was to make a run for it.

However, earlier in the day, at 3.37pm, Sydney siege survivor 82yo John O'Brien told the gunman he was old and frail. But this former Wimbledon and professional tennis player had an ace up his sleeve. He hid behind an advertising stand and then saw a green button which he pressed and decided to make a run for it followed by two others.

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/sydney-si...22125194&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=MzYzOTY3

 

[Estelle]

As our politicians have told us there are still many questions to be answered.

1. Was Monis primarily a state or federal responsibility?
3. How could a man facing trial for helping kill his wife and sexually assaulting dozens of women, while pledging support to the Islamic State and obsessively challenging his conviction for sending hateful letter to dead Diggers' families, be free to get a gun and walk into a city cafe?
5. Was there lack of co-ordination and co-operation between state and federal authorities?
7. Was he an Islamic extremist or a plain criminal?
9. Was his atrocity early on Tuesday morning an act of madness or terrorism?
11. Should his vile online Islamic extremist rantings merit full surveillance by federal agency ASIO?
13. Why didn't the murder and sex crime charges have a multiplier effect on those considerations?
15. He was apparently monitored by ASIO after sending the letters to fallen soldiers' families so if he was seen as enough of a threat to monitor then, why not later, even after he was charged with serious crimes?
17. Was it was a matter of resources and priorities?
19. Will governments be prepared to further tighten terrorism laws?
21. Will they be prepared to spend more money in times of fiscal hardship?
23. So why wasn't Monis being watched?

The answers the inquiry will have to find won't be simple ones.

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-polit...22125194&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=MzYzOTY3

 

[Estelle]

Tony Abbott asks in this video:
1. Why did Monis get permanent residency in Australia?
2. Why did he get benefits all these years?
3. Why wasn't his gun licence checked?
3. Despite his record of violence, why was he out on bail?
4. Why wasn't he on a watch list?
5. Did Police make the right call in refraining from using a sniper to kill him?
6. Did police, security and immigration agencies adequately monitor Monis and properly co-ordinate their response as the picture of a troubled and dangerous man emerged?

Abbott said that lessons have to be learned and new strategies put in place to prevent this sort of thing ever happening again. This is incredulous!

Scipione was adamant police did all they could to stop Monis being released on bail as they were concerned that Monis got bail from the very beginning when police charged Monis with more than 30 sexual and indecent assault charges in October. But prosecutors did not seek a review of his bail despite his being charged with a dozen similar offences and was accused of being an accessory to the murder of his ex wife.

Mr Abbott said there had been "incredulity" within his government on learning the extent of Monis' criminal background. We need to know how someone with such a long record of violence, such a long record of mental instability, was out on bail after his involvement in a particularly horrific crime.

However, a NSW Police Force statement said the Department of Public Prosecutions was of the belief in October that Monis would be released regardless of an attempt to revoke his bail. On two previous occasions, NSW Police had refused bail to Monis but bail was subsequently granted by the court. While police continued to hold the view the offender should not be released on bail, as indicated in the Fact Sheet, the DPP held the contrary view that in light of the court's previous position, bail would not be opposed.

Scipione said Monis might not have been granted bail had he been on a terror watch list – a federal responsibility. We work on a priority-based system. If somebody is on a national security watch list, then we pay particular attention to them, but on this occasion Monis was not on that list despite court documents showing that Monis claimed in 2011 that he had previously held a gun licence but that it had "expired many years ago".

Mr Abbott confirmed that Monis had been on an ASIO "watch list" in 2008/2009 but the security agency had ended their surveillance of him. He also left open the possibility of giving ASIO and law enforcement agencies more money and powers to monitor people deemed a risk, though he stressed the government had already allocated an extra $630 million to these agencies in August.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/tony...22125194&promote_channel=edmail&mbnr=MzYzOTY3

 

[Estelle]

I wonder why Police snipers did not take Haron Monis out. There were plenty of opportunities, the television cameras filmed him walking back and forth by the windows, often stopping in front of the windows for a few minutes ranting at the hostages. There were plenty of opportunities for a sniper to take him out.

Instead a courageous hostage Tori Johnson gave his life to tackle Haron Monis, he paid the ultimate price. It did not have to be that way, the snipers should have taken him out, and no-one needed to die (except the gunman). There were plenty of opportunities!!!
I hope that question is asked------why didn't the snipers take him out?? ------why did a hostage have to give his life to end it??
It didn't end right.

When I read that the 82yo ex-Wimbledon and Professional tennis player had got out at about 3.37pm by that door with the green button, I have often wondered why a sniper or a team of gunmen could not have gone in through that same door to kill the gunman. The three hostages would have told them how they escaped so why not use that same door?

It seems that the police team were assuming that the gunman would fall asleep during the night and they would then make their assault on the gunman.

But he did not fall asleep by 2am and instead became agitated as his demands were not being met at about 2am and he decided to shoot the Manager of the Lindt Cafe in the head. But I wonder if this was really because Tori struggled with Monis to try to get his gun.

I can understand why the sniper did not shoot from the Channel 7 at the windows of the Lindt Cafe while constantly viewing the site as the windows were glazed and the smattering of the glass could have caused injuries, plus his using the female with MS as a human shield to protect him but surely there were other ways they could have got in like this particular door.

But maybe after the three others escaped at 3.45pm, it was a one-way security door. Noise of the police accessing it may have provoked the gunman to kill everyone before they could even get in. So it appears to me as if they had been told to wait until the gunman attacked first.

Maybe Tori and Katrina were the most outspoken of all the hostages - his being the Manager and her being a Barrister, so they could have been more at risk in the "other group" if that was the group he was targeting.

Also I have wondered how difficult it would have been for the police gunmen to fire at anyone initially when in the dark.

IMO this was Monis' indirect way of committing suicide. He knew that he would probably be imprisoned for his sexual offences plus his being at least an accessory to his ex-wife's murder plus he lost his case the previous Friday because of the letters he wrote to the widows. So as he had already decided the previous weekend that at the age of 50yo, he did not want to end his life in prison, he may as well go out in a blaze of so-called "glory" by making unreasonable demands in social media using his hostages which he probably knew would never be met.

Who could have ever delivered the flag he wanted?

However, I think it is probable that the the Australian community could thank our lucky stars that such a mentally unstable man did not wipe out (with his shotgun) all the hostages much earlier as is so often the case in the USA.

Was Katrina Dawson being used as a human shield then or was she, as a barrister, asserting herself with the gunman? How did his previous human shield, the woman with MS escape?

 

[Ausgirl]

IMO this was Monis' indirect way of committing suicide.

I agree.

 

[Archangel7]

Monis was consumed by evil. He had and cultivated an internal hate until it could nor would be contained, he HAD to put it into action.

This was no suicide by cop. This was a hate crime against all who are unlike his twisted view of the world.

Monis new he would have the advantage. He knew no citizen would be armed to endanger his plan. He could have attempted to take the NSW police dept. hostage, what's the difference? I'll tell you, TOTALLY defenseless people.

He wasn't giving up, it wasn't in his twisted plan. He intended to make a personal religious /political statement while killing all he could and having the public do just what is being done here, armchair scrutinize, Monday morning quarterback the Police. Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Don't worry, they will de-brief the event, torment themselves well past the appropriate degree, and do it all over again real soon with another radical kook, a disarmed, defenseless public and a catch and release legal system.

Simply put, One wolf can frighten a whole flock of sheep.........

 

[Ausgirl]

He wasn't giving up, it wasn't in his twisted plan. He intended to make a personal religious /political statement

My one problem with this is, he had a habit of switching teams according to what suited his present agenda. One moment the IS is the enemy, hunting him down, the next he's demanding the flag.

I reckon it was all a platform for his psychopathy, personally. It got him what he wanted, when he wanted it.

So I reckon it's not unfeasible that he did this to go out in a blaze of 'glory' (and national attention, being that he enjoyed notoriety and feeling like a big man, going on his previous actions) rather than face a life of obscurity in prison as a sex offender/murderer.

I also think there was probably a few people in prison he was keen to avoid.

 

[SouthAussie]

Hearing on morning news that raids were carried out last night related to a plot to behead an Aussie in Martin Place. Not directly related to the siege. But another possible attempt at headlines, terror, and control.

Here is a little about the raids ... online MSM are not mentioning Martin Place, but Ch 7 TV news did this morning.

http://www.9news.com.au/national/2014/12/18/18/51/afp-and-nsw-police-swoop-on-sydney-houses
http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-raids-nsw-and-afp-hit-homes-in-sydney-20141218-12a10l.html

 

[Archangel7]

My one problem with this is, he had a habit of switching teams according to what suited his present agenda. One moment the IS is the enemy, hunting him down, the next he's demanding the flag.

I reckon it was all a platform for his psychopathy, personally. It got him what he wanted, when he wanted it.

So I reckon it's not unfeasible that he did this to go out in a blaze of 'glory' (and national attention, being that he enjoyed notoriety and feeling like a big man, going on his previous actions) rather than face a life of obscurity in prison as a sex offender/murderer.

I also think there was probably a few people in prison he was keen to avoid.

Always possibility.

I'm guessing he enjoyed the power and control, the feeding off the fear of his captives. That would eventually wane.
I just kept checking my watch ever so often throughout and speaking out loud what I was thinking,"too long guys, too long......."

It is an extremely difficult decision for a person(in authority) to make in order to end the event such as this. Many variables and contingencies, either hero or zero. You will be judged not on what you knew at that very moment, but what is revealed hours and days later.....