Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020 #2

[trujac]

Hey all. Very interesting reading indeed.

My maiden post so please be gentle

I am intrigued by the fire marks left on the truck, definitely something odd with the straight lines/outline on the side of the vehicle. Tarp draped over it maybe?

I agree with Trujac in that CC didnt seem to be the outside, rough it, kind, but as we all know - looks can be very deceiving, and past comments of her accompany RH on previous camping trips might shoot my initial thoughts down.

So many questions, to a mystery that I honestly believe we will get an answer to eventually - hopefully sooner rather than later for their families and friends.

Cheers truth hunters...

The truth is out there

Welcome! Yes...I thought the scorch marks on RH's truck were very interesting and possibly caused by a butane torch. My first thought was there was some type of splatter on the truck--the fire torch was used to obliterate it. The butane torch could have been used to ignite the tent and the contents, as well as the surrounding articles--chairs, table, etc.

 

[IminSyd]

I’m sure it’s been said but for this one I can’t grab a theory that doesn’t have a hole in it. I don’t love the murder suicide theory because of lack of motive for the murder and where are the bodies? I don’t love accident because I don’t realistically think they could have got far and so where are the bodies? Running off together too far fetched because of her family/community ties and resources. Murder by known person sounds ok but if the person/people were hoping to profit financially the bodies would have to be found to prove death so doesn’t really make sense? Crime of passion possibly? Motive there, bodies could have been moved, statistically likely?...I guess that is what I am left with.

 

[SouthAussie]

I’m sure it’s been said but for this one I can’t grab a theory that doesn’t have a hole in it. I don’t love the murder suicide theory because of lack of motive for the murder and where are the bodies? I don’t love accident because I don’t realistically think they could have got far and so where are the bodies? Running off together too far fetched because of her family/community ties and resources. Murder by known person sounds ok but if the person/people were hoping to profit financially the bodies would have to be found to prove death so doesn’t really make sense? Crime of passion possibly? Motive there, bodies could have been moved, statistically likely?...I guess that is what I am left with.

Yes. I think that the three most likely scenarios (imo) are - in no particular order:

1. Crime of passion/money - presumably instigated by a person(s) close to Russell & Carol
2. Crime of territory/anger - presumably carried out by someone who considers Russell & Carol to have been trespassing on their self-designated own territory - with perhaps a confrontation involved (or not)
3. Crime of covering up something illegal - pot growers, illegal hunters or the like - perhaps with a confrontation involved

Points 2 & 3 could overlap. As could points 1 & 2, in a different way.

 

[trujac]

I’m sure it’s been said but for this one I can’t grab a theory that doesn’t have a hole in it. I don’t love the murder suicide theory because of lack of motive for the murder and where are the bodies? I don’t love accident because I don’t realistically think they could have got far and so where are the bodies? Running off together too far fetched because of her family/community ties and resources. Murder by known person sounds ok but if the person/people were hoping to profit financially the bodies would have to be found to prove death so doesn’t really make sense? Crime of passion possibly? Motive there, bodies could have been moved, statistically likely?...I guess that is what I am left with.

When I think of crime of passion cases there usually is some evidence--over turned chair, door busted down, clothing found torn and/or bloody, clean up evidence, and body fluids left for investigators to piece together what happened at the crime scene. What makes this case so odd to me is the bizarre mix match of conflicting visual evidence...tent/chairs/table set on fire, odd scorch marks on truck, truck left in operating condition with key in ignition, and with RH and CC's personal and identifiable belongings inside--no evidence of an accelerant used to start the fire--malfunctioning cell phone charger also ruled out. And, then there's no trace of RH and CC after multiple investigators search the area for them with vehicles, dogs, horses, by foot and aerial observation. How could two elderly people simply vanish leaving absolutely no telltale signs whatsoever--especially when one of them had a severe heart condition that limited their ability to walk?? The lead investigator in this case said he thought RH and CC were most likely "carted out of the valley" by someone. Yet, that still doesn't explain the reason for destroying their entire tent and contents, along with the chairs and tables--unless RH and CC were murdered in their tent or while sitting in their chairs and the killer decided to burn everything to make sure nothing was left for investigators to discover. But then, there's the problem of why were they murdered? Theft doesn't seem to be the reason--unless, RH's drone had some incriminating video and they wanted his drone and needed to permanently silence RH and CC. I find it difficult to believe that RH wouldn't have shared with his ham radio buddies any relevant/interesting news about his drone activities--after all, he called everyday to check in and to update them with his activities and plans. As for a jilted spouse/lover/mad enemy stalking RH and CC to the valley and then abducting them--well, that might be a possibility--maybe RH and CC complied with their abductor in hopes that they wouldn't be subjected to violence and/or murder. But if they left willing that still doesn't explain the burnt out campsite since investigators could find no plausible explanation as to how and why the fire started.

 

[trujac]

He seemed like a very methodical person who liked to be prepared for anything that might happen. Hence the checking in every day.

Yes, I agree...very methodical--and I also think not the type to withhold information from his long term camping and ham radio friends who he religiously kept in contact with on a daily basis for years.

 

[SouthAussie]

Yes, I agree...very methodical--and I also think not the type to withhold information from his long term camping and ham radio friends who he religiously kept in contact with on a daily basis for years.

Yes, described as meticulous.


"We know that he had spent quite a bit of time up here and he was described to us as being quite meticulous when camping," he said.

"With that in mind, we don't believe he would have come up here unprepared and his disappearance is considered to be out of character.
Plea for assistance renewed

 

[Fox Mulder = the truth]

Welcome! Yes...I thought the scorch marks on RH's truck were very interesting and possibly caused by a butane torch. My first thought was there was some type of splatter on the truck--the fire torch was used to obliterate it. The butane torch could have been used to ignite the tent and the contents, as well as the surrounding articles--chairs, table, etc.

Butane torch would make sense given the fire investigators found no accelerate, not to mention the level of destruction to the tent,chairs,tables.

 

[Fox Mulder = the truth]

Wonder if RH had one on board the truck given his predisposition to being prepared for all kind of things, and his years experience camping and logging days - not the kind of thing a general visitor to the area would have in the glove box I wouldn't think

 

[SouthAussie]

Wonder if RH had one on board the truck given his predisposition to being prepared for all kind of things, and his years experience camping and logging days - not the kind of thing a general visitor to the area would have in the glove box I wouldn't think

Would a butane torch leave those kind of markings? Looking at the 'fanned' markings on the right of the canopy.

I think there could even be shade canopy/tarp remnants on the ground in that area as well as a half burned pole. Top half burned, as the bottom half still has the rubber foot on it.

 

[trujac]

Would a butane torch leave those kind of markings? Looking at the 'fanned' markings on the right of the canopy.

I think there could even be shade canopy/tarp remnants on the ground in that area as well as a half burned pole. Top half burned, as the bottom half still has the rubber foot on it. View attachment 263337

That's an interesting observation. It does look like a destroyed shade canopy with a partially burned support pole--what's your take on the fire remnants? I think the degree of the fire heat also puzzled the investigators. Apparently butane and propane torches are somewhat similar in their heat temperature--with propane being hotter. RH could have had a propane torch.
Butane vs Propane Torch: Get To Know Them
What is the Temperature of Fire? | News - Target Fire Protection

 

[Fox Mulder = the truth]

Good point re the "fanned marks" - raises more questions than answers like so many aspects of this. Also, it appears that the cabin of the truck escaped any burn marks from the pics I have seen. You would think given the marks left on the rear of the tray canopy, that there would be some (even just minor) markings on the cabin.

And.... whilst I am on the subject of things that intrigue me - the outdoor shower being left untouched.

Only thing I can think of is that it may have been dark when the fire was set, and the shower set up was hidden from view by RH's truck from any "visitors" to the camp site. Seems everything else was tossed into the blaze, so why not this light and easy to move item.

Hmm very intriguing...

 

[Satchie]

Yes. I think that the three most likely scenarios (imo) are - in no particular order:

1. Crime of passion/money - presumably instigated by a person(s) close to Russell & Carol
2. Crime of territory/anger - presumably carried out by someone who considers Russell & Carol to have been trespassing on their self-designated own territory - with perhaps a confrontation involved (or not)
3. Crime of covering up something illegal - pot growers, illegal hunters or the like - perhaps with a confrontation involved

Points 2 & 3 could overlap. As could points 1 & 2, in a different way.

Killing two people is rare. Doubly risky, doubly violent.

Also "Husband missing, wife suspected" isn't a headline you ever see. They usually leave obvious clues, and go batty.

 

[SouthAussie]

Good point re the "fanned marks" - raises more questions than answers like so many aspects of this. Also, it appears that the cabin of the truck escaped any burn marks from the pics I have seen. You would think given the marks left on the rear of the tray canopy, that there would be some (even just minor) markings on the cabin.

And.... whilst I am on the subject of things that intrigue me - the outdoor shower being left untouched.

Only thing I can think of is that it may have been dark when the fire was set, and the shower set up was hidden from view by RH's truck from any "visitors" to the camp site. Seems everything else was tossed into the blaze, so why not this light and easy to move item.

Hmm very intriguing...

My theory on the burn markings on the vehicle canopy is that any breeze coming down from the front/left of the vehicle may have caused the cab not to be touched and caused the fanning toward the back.

I think the shower/portapotty/whatever-it-is didn't catch alight for that reason as well. Likely unnecessary to individually burn it if there was no evidence of a crime and no dna left in that spot.

The esky under the vehicle shows no signs of being fire affected, while it has a strange straight line down it ... possibly some kind of melting of plastic in a specific line?

The fire seemed more intense in the tent area, while there are several half burned poles at the front, the completely burned poles are at the back. Indicating, to me, that the half burned poles may have been in canopied areas with less tent material to burn.

I don't get what those large cylindrical objects are in the burned area. Very large for a camping trip, whatever they are.

(If you save the pic and zoom in, it is a lot easier to see the detail)


High Country mystery deepens as police investigate 'new sightings' of missing campers

 

[SouthAussie]

Killing two people is rare. Doubly risky, doubly violent.

Also "Husband missing, wife suspected" isn't a headline you ever see. They usually leave obvious clues, and go batty.

I am not sure it would have been a wife. Possibly another relative, perhaps even one who could inherit in the future. One we haven't heard about yet. One who didn't like what was happening behind wife's back and what may have been leading to a serious other commitment.
Or possibly a great admirer of Carol.

If this is a 'personal' crime.

 

[trujac]

Killing two people is rare. Doubly risky, doubly violent.

Also "Husband missing, wife suspected" isn't a headline you ever see. They usually leave obvious clues, and go batty.

yes, Betty Broderick is a good example of leaving clues, while out of her mind with anger and revenge.

 

[trujac]

My theory on the burn markings on the vehicle canopy is that any breeze coming down from the front/left of the vehicle may have caused the cab not to be touched and caused the fanning toward the back.

I think the shower/portapotty/whatever-it-is didn't catch alight for that reason as well. Likely unnecessary to individually burn it if there was no evidence of a crime and no dna left in that spot.

The esky under the vehicle shows no signs of being fire affected, while it has a strange straight line down it ... possibly some kind of melting of plastic in a specific line?

The fire seemed more intense in the tent area, while there are several half burned poles at the front, the completely burned poles are at the back. Indicating, to me, that the half burned poles may have been in canopied areas with less tent material to burn.

I don't get what those large cylindrical objects are in the burned area. Very large for a camping trip, whatever they are.

(If you save the pic and zoom in, it is a lot easier to see the detail)
View attachment 263396

High Country mystery deepens as police investigate 'new sightings' of missing campers

Looks like RH could have secured the tent awning tarp to his truck roof rack for extra security against wind gusts. Taking the theory that the inside of the tent was the area where the fire started and burned the hottest--it is a big question mark to me how the awning would have provided the reason for the fire escaping on and up the outsides of it to scorch truck, unless it was fire proof like a space blanket or some other type of fire resistant material.

 

[SouthAussie]

Looks like RH could have secured the tent awning tarp to his truck roof rack for extra security against wind gusts. Taking the theory that the inside of the tent was the area where the fire started and burned the hottest--it is a big question mark to me how the awning would have provided the reason for the fire escaping on and up the outsides of it to scorch truck, unless it was fire proof like a space blanket or some other type of fire resistant material.

The way I am thinking, the flames would have scorched the vehicle canopy from top to bottom as the burning tent canopy was coming down/detaching from the rails of the vehicle roof.

 

[neesaki]

Yes. I think that the three most likely scenarios (imo) are - in no particular order:

1. Crime of passion/money - presumably instigated by a person(s) close to Russell & Carol
2. Crime of territory/anger - presumably carried out by someone who considers Russell & Carol to have been trespassing on their self-designated own territory - with perhaps a confrontation involved (or not)
3. Crime of covering up something illegal - pot growers, illegal hunters or the like - perhaps with a confrontation involved

Points 2 & 3 could overlap. As could points 1 & 2, in a different way.

I agree. I don’t believe for a minute that it was murder suicide.

 

[trujac]

The way I am thinking, the flames would have scorched the vehicle canopy from top to bottom as the burning tent canopy was coming down/detaching from the rails of the vehicle roof.

Just curious...wouldn't you think there would have been at least one thing still standing upright or at least giving a normal appearance of placement after the fire was extinguished or finished burning out? When I look at the aftermath of this fire, the picture really suggests to me that the fire was started, after which the chairs and table were thrown in as it burned.

 

[SouthAussie]

Just curious...wouldn't you think there would have been at least one thing still standing upright or at least giving a normal appearance of placement after the fire was extinguished or finished burning out? When I look at the aftermath of this fire, the picture really suggests to me that the fire was started, after which the chairs and table were thrown in as it burned.

I would have thought something would still be standing. I truly wonder if there was some kind of confrontation/struggle. Perhaps even desperation to get out of the tent. Or both.

It could even be that they were sitting around having what they thought was a friendly yarn with somebody, and then it turned very ugly. So everything was thrown into the fire to eliminate dna and evidence.

Any thoughts as to what those large round objects are among the fire debris? One looks like a waste bin. Pretty big to take camping though.

Another thing I was wondering, whether police brought in an indigenous tracker. Not that we would know that. But how useful that would have been around the time that Russell and Carol went missing.