Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020

[Tinker Taylor]

As for a night fire accident, I tend to think that there would have been traces of them walking away eg. Sooted foot prints and so on. Not highly likely IMO but I am no camper.

I guess the same thing would apply to foul play. If someone took them there would be signs of a scuffle, vehicle tracks, signs of accelerant, etc.

It seems that there is also no info on what was actually found or not found. It's unlikely they would speculate on the fire being caused by a phone charger if there was no evidence of one being found.

 

[trujac]

I guess the same thing would apply to foul play. If someone took them there would be signs of a scuffle, vehicle tracks, signs of accelerant, etc.

It seems that there is also no info on what was actually found or not found. It's unlikely they would speculate on the fire being caused by a phone charger if there was no evidence of one being found.

The fire investigators found no signs of an accelerant used in starting the tent fire. RH and CC could have resisted in their tent before being subdued--if that is what happened, signs of a struggle along with blood and DNA evidence was lost in the fire.

 

[Panda]

Re the missing items, the initial reports were quite confusing, and then I think the police has not clarified again as to the whereabouts of various items.

Were the phones missing or burnt? Was any other valuables or keys missing or burnt? Apart from the drone, I don't think we are given the information.

Now that we know they are treating this as foul play, I guess they are keeping quiet about some details. MOO

As for a night fire accident, I tend to think that there would have been traces of them walking away eg. Sooted foot prints and so on. Not highly likely IMO but I am no camper.

From the Daily Telegraph:

"Both were believed to be carrying their mobile phones, as they were not found at the campsite."

"Ms Clay’s belongings were found in the locked Toyota"

There's no other information as to anything else being missing, other than the drone.

 

[PingTheRouter]

some remains were found today but i dont think its them, maybe we are getting closer
https://www.news.com.au/national/vi...e/news-story/a7347608fcf6bc619fa75b0809b328e5

 

[Kemug]

Wasn't it said way further back, that Russell's keys were found in the ignition? If so, wouldn't he have been able to smash the window in, if desperate to escape the fire? (I've never tried, so I really don't know) Also, to go right back to the beginning, to Russell's only phone call, when he said he was having transmission problems - what if that wasn't actually true, and he was setting up a sort of alibi, so that people wouldn't worry for a while when there were no further calls. Any thoughts?

 

[PingTheRouter]

what if that wasn't actually true, and he was setting up a sort of alibi

anything is possible in a missing persons case even more so when you have a new "partner" on the scene even if it was companionship or more

 

[Panda]

Some quotes from various articles from the Daily Telegraph and Herald Sun. Although nothing new, it's a recap or reminder of some of the aspects of this baffling case. Apologies if some of the info has recently been added but thought it might be of help to newer posters, rather than having to read articles from the beginning of thread.

"Mr Hill is an experienced bushman and former logger and had travelled the track several times already this year."

"However, police conceded it was a perplexing case and that most people who disappear in the bush are quickly found."

"Detectives have conducted extensive searches into both Mr Hill and Ms Clay’s finances, lifestyles and recent purchases but found nothing."

"However there was no evidence to suggest it was visited by a person or car involved in the couples’ disappearance."

" a valuable $2000 drone owned by Mr Hill has not been recovered and has emerged as a key line of inquiry."

The DJI brand Mavic model drone is considered top of the range and there is a theory it got stuck or lost and Mr Hill went in search of it."

"Through he was a very experienced camper, both he and Ms Clay were not avid bush walkers."

"Det Insp Stamper said police have been unable to remotely retrieve flight logs from the drone."

"Detectives have been told by those who had previously camped with Mr Hill that he was unlikely to venture too far on foot from wherever he had set-up."

"The 74-year-old Mr Hill, from Drouin, is an experienced and well-equipped bushman."

"There is no mobile phone reception in the Wonnangatta Valley area but, in an emergency, they would have been able to get out of the area in Mr Hill’s Toyota four-wheel-drive."

Tests are still being made on Mr Hill’s radio to see whether it was operable."

"Testing by arson and explosives squad investigators has not come up with a conclusive cause for the fire at their campsite.

It had incinerated a tent, a camp table and chairs and scorched the side of Mr Hill’s vehicle, which was still drivable."

"Detectives have been able to confirm Mr Hill was camping alone in the area of the King Billy and Bluff Track between March 11 and 13."

"Hill’s local knowledge would not stop him getting lost after dark, says Bruce McCormack, mountain cattleman and trail ride operator. He and fellow cattleman Graeme Stoney have been involved in many searches over many decades. They know how treacherous the mountains are, especially in autumn, when overnight temperatures can hit zero.

McCormack recalls spending a night shivering under a saddle blanket rather than to risk getting “bushed” in the dark. Bruthen “brumby runner” Dean Backman once spent the night in a hollow log with his dogs — only to find the next morning that he was almost within sight of the track.

People who don’t wait for daylight to retrace their steps can be drawn deeper into dense bush. Once injured or weak, they are easy prey for wild dogs that now hunt in packs of four or more. McCormack found a cow carcass last week surrounded by dog tracks, and says they routinely kill newborn calves."

 

[Steffy_jade]

I took it that Tinker's scenario included their not being able to enter the vehicle due to key damage in the fire. I don't think they would have walked off in search of civilization if they could have driven.

If they'd lost their water supply, what would be the options? Would they have to head for the river, or is there some sort of pump in the camping area?

I just wonder if they had been injured in the fire still why would they leave their car? Even if the keys were damaged so badly that they were unusable (which I imagine would take an incredibly hot burning fire) would you not break into your car and attempt to get on contact with someone by radio (I would assume he would surely have had a uhf radio in the car, as well as his ham radio) and even attempt to hotwire the car and drive out? Or as a last resort, you’ve probably got clothes, food and a first aid kit in the car so just wait it out until someone drives past, which most likely wouldn’t be a huge amount of time as it’s a popular area with 4wders and hunters.
Staying put is the safest option, it’s always drilled into us. Especially when people are expecting to hear from you and know where you are.

If they had for some reason decided to walk for help they would have stuck to the main road, but from memory it’s a few hours slow drive either direction to any township or houses, certainly not a chance I would take unless I had absolutely no other options.

In regards to a water supply there is a small creek that runs through the valley which the campsites all back onto so there would be no reason to leave to search for water.

Anything’s possible I guess, especially if you are injured and dazed and not thinking straight, I just don’t see it going that way personally.

 

[JLZ]

I just wonder if they had been injured in the fire still why would they leave their car? Even if the keys were damaged so badly that they were unusable (which I imagine would take an incredibly hot burning fire) would you not break into your car and attempt to get on contact with someone by radio (I would assume he would surely have had a uhf radio in the car, as well as his ham radio) and even attempt to hotwire the car and drive out? Or as a last resort, you’ve probably got clothes, food and a first aid kit in the car so just wait it out until someone drives past, which most likely wouldn’t be a huge amount of time as it’s a popular area with 4wders and hunters.
Staying put is the safest option, it’s always drilled into us. Especially when people are expecting to hear from you and know where you are.

If they had for some reason decided to walk for help they would have stuck to the main road, but from memory it’s a few hours slow drive either direction to any township or houses, certainly not a chance I would take unless I had absolutely no other options.

In regards to a water supply there is a small creek that runs through the valley which the campsites all back onto so there would be no reason to leave to search for water.

Anything’s possible I guess, especially if you are injured and dazed and not thinking straight, I just don’t see it going that way personally.

Apparently it's nearly impossible to break into a modern car by breaking a car window. I have read of people trying and failing to break a car window because a child was dying of the heat inside.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

It’s more likely that they started off the next morning with the drone. Walked a ways, then were attacked. Wrong place at the wrong time. So the assault was far from camp. Bodies moved then evidence compromised at the attack site. Perps went back to camp to select anything else worth money. Set fire to compromise evidence.
Missing bodies tells me they were moved far off camping areas. I don’t think theft was the motive. Nor was this a crime of opportunity.
SAR probably searched for signs of graves.
Early on we discussed them stumbling upon some criminal activity which in my
mind is still the most likely occurrence. What crime? I don’t know. What’s out there? Drugs? Attack occurring in another camp site? Domestic violence? Timber or cattle rustlers? It cost them their lives.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Crime time with Charlie Bezzina: The missing campers + the bugging of the MPs office


Crime time with Charlie Bezzina: The missing campers + the bugging of the MPs office
If you’re fascinated by true crime, like Dee Dee is, this new segment is one is for you!

Former top homicide detective and 38-year Victoria Police veteran Charlie Bezzina joined Dee Dee today to talk about some of the biggest crime stories of the day.

He shared his thoughts on the mysterious disappearance of Russell Hill and Carol Clay, the legality of the CCTV and audio evidence used to take down former Labor MP Adem Somyurek.

He also delved into the case of serial killer Paul Charles Denyer, who terrorised Frankston in the early 1990s.


It's Audio

 

[Morrisa]

Crime time with Charlie Bezzina: The missing campers + the bugging of the MPs office


Crime time with Charlie Bezzina: The missing campers + the bugging of the MPs office
If you’re fascinated by true crime, like Dee Dee is, this new segment is one is for you!

Former top homicide detective and 38-year Victoria Police veteran Charlie Bezzina joined Dee Dee today to talk about some of the biggest crime stories of the day.

He shared his thoughts on the mysterious disappearance of Russell Hill and Carol Clay, the legality of the CCTV and audio evidence used to take down former Labor MP Adem Somyurek.

He also delved into the case of serial killer Paul Charles Denyer, who terrorised Frankston in the early 1990s.


It's Audio

Interesting. Charlie states Russells wallet was found but credit cards and cash missing?
I don't recall reading about a wallet being found?

 

[trujac]

It’s more likely that they started off the next morning with the drone. Walked a ways, then were attacked. Wrong place at the wrong time. So the assault was far from camp. Bodies moved then evidence compromised at the attack site. Perps went back to camp to select anything else worth money. Set fire to compromise evidence.
Missing bodies tells me they were moved far off camping areas. I don’t think theft was the motive. Nor was this a crime of opportunity.
SAR probably searched for signs of graves.
Early on we discussed them stumbling upon some criminal activity which in my
mind is still the most likely occurrence. What crime? I don’t know. What’s out there? Drugs? Attack occurring in another camp site? Domestic violence? Timber or cattle rustlers? It cost them their lives.

Your theory as to what might have happened to RH and CC is interesting...I question why someone would abduct RH and CC away from their campsite and then return to their campsite to loot and burn down the tent--for these reasons: namely, what valuables would have been left in the tent if they left with their drone, and LE stated that it appeared all of RH and CC's belongings were still in their locked vehicle?

 

[trujac]

Wasn't it said way further back, that Russell's keys were found in the ignition? If so, wouldn't he have been able to smash the window in, if desperate to escape the fire? (I've never tried, so I really don't know) Also, to go right back to the beginning, to Russell's only phone call, when he said he was having transmission problems - what if that wasn't actually true, and he was setting up a sort of alibi, so that people wouldn't worry for a while when there were no further calls. Any thoughts?

I

your thought about RH purposefully setting up his ham radio so it would result in transmission problems, so he would have a reason why he wouldn't be in contact for a while with his wife and friends, is very interesting. I am licensed ham radio operator, and it makes sense to me that RH might have purposefully set up his radio antenna, and/or the connectors/cables and control settings so there would be a failure in contacting or receiving a station.

 

[Panda]

Interesting. Charlie states Russells wallet was found but credit cards and cash missing?
I don't recall reading about a wallet being found?

I scoured all the media releases about this case and there was nothing mentioned about a wallet being found and credit cards and cash missing. I have no idea where he got that information from. If it's true, then that puts a whole new spin on things. Further, we have no idea where his wallet was found or when for that matter. I do wish they would release more information.

 

[Panda]

I

your thought about RH purposefully setting up his ham radio so it would result in transmission problems, so he would have a reason why he wouldn't be in contact for a while with his wife and friends, is very interesting. I am licensed ham radio operator, and it makes sense to me that RH might have purposefully set up his radio antenna, and/or the connectors/cables and control settings so there would be a failure in contacting or receiving a station.

I'm just wondering, why do you think that scenario makes sense?

 

[trujac]

I'm just wondering, why do you think that scenario makes sense?

Panda, it makes sense to me because RH is a skilled ham radio operator and could easily spoof a transmission problem with his radio...and it doesn't seem entirely impossible (but highly unlikely, IMO) that maybe RH and CC staged their disappearance and used the ruse of radio transmission problems to buy time; however, there doesn't appear to be a viable reason why RH and CC would just decide to disappear. CC's family already knew she had been camping with RH for years, and RH didn't seem to have any marital problems with his wife...even though she didn't know about his camping arrangement with CC, she considered her husband's friendship with CC as being alright.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Your theory as to what might have happened to RH and CC is interesting...I question why someone would abduct RH and CC away from their campsite and then return to their campsite to loot and burn down the tent--for these reasons: namely, what valuables would have been left in the tent if they left with their drone, and LE stated that it appeared all of RH and CC's belongings were still in their locked vehicle?

Deflect attention from the true scene of the assault. A red herring, if you will. It might not be related at all. Perhaps a different set of people stumbled upon a deserted campsite and after rifling through it, set it a blaze.

 

[trujac]

Deflect attention from the true scene of the assault. A red herring, if you will. It might not be related at all. Perhaps a different set of people stumbled upon a deserted campsite and after rifling through it, set it a blaze.

that's a real possibility...that someone not connected to RH and CC's disappearance was responsible for torching their campsite. In which case, perhaps RH and CC had a catastrophic accident while away from their campsite--but then numerous people who knew RH stated he never ventured far from his campsite...making their complete disappearance baffling since LE should have found evidence that supported they were in proximity to their campsite.

 

[Kemug]

Deflect attention from the true scene of the assault. A red herring, if you will. It might not be related at all. Perhaps a different set of people stumbled upon a deserted campsite and after rifling through it, set it a blaze.

Well possibly, but how unlucky would Carol and Russell have to be to cross the paths of two separate criminals in such a short space of time?! I'm never going camping there!