Found Deceased Australia - Russell Hill, 74, & Carol Clay, 72, Wonnangatta Valley, 20 March 2020

[TootsieFootsie]

Yes, Welcome Steffy_jade!

 

[Panda]

unless the second person was Carol!
But foul play or misadventure are higher on my list than them running away together.
MOO

That would necessitate Carol driving up there in a four wheel drive. The police said her car was still in the driveway at her home, which from memory wasn't a four wheel drive anyway. I stand to be corrected but my understanding is that the tracks to the camping area aren't simply forest tracks that you could drive on in a 2WD vehicle. Not sure how experienced Carol was in 4WD'ing. In any case, it would need to be a vehicle that was registered to either of them, which would be traceable by the police and would subsequently need to be missing.

 

[Panda]

Recap from A Current Affair:

"Elderly companions missing in Victoria's high country for almost three months could have been carted out of the camp ground against their will, police believe.

In an exclusive sit-down interview with A Current Affair, head of the Missing Persons Squad Detective Inspector Andrew Stamper revealed it was likely a "third party" was involved in the mystery disappearance of Carol Clay, 73, and Russell Hill, 74.

Inspector Stamper said the most-compelling theory was that "something bad has happened to them and they've either been removed from the valley or they've been concealed somewhere".

"We would have found them by now if they were still up there," he told A Current Affair.

It was unlikely an attack on the couple was "planned" or "premeditated", Inspector Stamper said.

Inspector Stamper said search-and-rescue officers had scoured the high country for at least 30 days, venturing into rugged terrain for up to a week at a time.

"I've seen the GPS tracks of where they've been and they've pretty much covered all of the valley and their belief is, if Russell and Carol were still there, they would have found them or some trace of them."

"The strongest theory is that it is something that's happened in the valley that has escalated and resulting in something bad happening to them."

"We have found no trace whatsoever."

A fire which tore through the campsite was a "concern" for investigators, the Detective Inspector said.

His team of five detectives – who are working full-time on the case – have almost completely ruled out the possibility the couple staged their own disappearance to start a new life together.

"There's no reason for them to do that," Inspector Stamper said.

"Let's remember it's 2020 – it's very difficult to just live off the grid.

Inspector Stamper said he wasn't "convinced" three reported sightings of people matching the couple's description were in fact them.

The sightings were made up to two-hours' drive away from their campsite, two days after anyone heard from them on March 20.

"They were made in good faith – people who've done the right thing and let us know," Inspector Stamper said.

"Our enquiries so far would suggest it's not Russell and Carol."

Detectives have spoken to a "number" of people as part of their wide-reaching investigation but have confirmed they do not have any suspects or persons-of-interest.

"At this stage, there is no-one we have spoken to that we believe has any connection to this," Inspector Stamper said.

He renewed his appeal for anyone in the area around the time Russell and Carol went missing to come forward, as detectives conduct a "process of elimination".

"We just want to identify and eliminate anyone that was in the valley at that time.

"We know that there were a lot of people: four-wheel drivers, hunters, people fishing and just camping.

"We've heard from very few people I have to say – it's a bit disappointing, we've made this request a number of times," he said.

"We are building a picture of everybody who was there and trying to place on a map in terms of where everybody was to try and build a jigsaw puzzle of people in the area.

"I'm confident we'll get there.""

"I'm confident we'll get some answers for the family."

 

[Sillybilly]

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[Panda]

Investigator says married man and female friend who vanished without a trace were likely MURDERED | Daily Mail Online

Interesting to note that a hat was on the dashboard. This would most likely indicate that he wore the hat when driving/out of the vehicle during the day. It looks like he's taken the hat off and put it on the dashboard, as it was nighttime and he had no reason to wear it, ie after arriving at the campsite after going to the station to make the call on the radio.

The implication could be that something happened to Russell and Carol during the night, not the following day. Otherwise the hat would have been taken out of the car to be worn.

As the vehicle was found locked with belongs still inside, this further makes me think something occurred during the evening and not during the day. During the day, it is likely belongings would have been removed from the vehicle and put in the tent and the vehicle would have been unlocked, as they would most likely be sorting out the campsite in the morning before venturing anywhere. It would have taken a reasonable amount of time to finish sorting out the camp site and have breakfast. It is more likely the vehicle would have been locked before they went to bed and then unlocked when they arose the following day to remove items from the vehicle.

 

[Panda]

Another thing I noticed from the photo of the toilet tent. The door is open, which to me would indicate it most likely was left open at night, so that Carol would find it easier to go to the toilet in the middle of the night, rather than mess about with having to undo the zipper to open the door. It is also more likely that it would be zippered up during the day. Firstly, because it isn't an attractive look to have a toilet staring at you, secondly, even though it's a chemical toilet, it is more likely to attract flies and thirdly, no-one would leave the door open during the day whilst preparing breakfast, for example, as it is quite close to the tent/cooking set up. Toilets are usually set up a reasonable distance away from the tent/cooking area, which makes me think that Carol, given her age, had a bladder problem and needed to go to the toilet a number of times during the night.

This is another reason why I believe something may have happened to them during the evening and not during the day.

Having said that, the drone is missing. It is more likely it would have been left in the car or have been used at the time of their disappearance. It's possible it was put in the tent, however, given a lack of space and given the other items were left in the vehicle, I'm not sure that would be logical.

 

[Ramjet]

<< "I'm confident we'll get some answers for the family." >>
I'm confident the good folks on Websleuths will solve this .
Huh ?

 

[Panda]

"something bad has happened to them and they've either been removed from the valley or they've been concealed somewhere"

Okay, so now working on the police theory of foul play, as they call it.

How would they be removed from the valley? Someone must had had a vehicle who happened upon their campsite. (I would have thought the police would have been well and truly on top of this, evidence of tyre marks, flattened grass, etc, unless the crime scene was too badly compromised).

If there was no sign of blood in the vicinity, they must have been escorted into another vehicle, unharmed at that point. After their camp site had been set fire to, (why?), how can someone then managed to escort them into another vehicle? Use of threat by firearm?

Remembering that Russell's vehicle was intact, if the fire had been accidental, he would have been able to use his vehicle to leave the area with Carol.

"or they've been concealed somewhere". That implies they were killed at the scene. Once again, there would be evidence, I would have thought. If they were killed at the scene, how? If there's no evidence, it's unlikely they were killed by means of a firearm, or knife, for example.

More than one culprit involved?

 

[Steffy_jade]

Investigator says married man and female friend who vanished without a trace were likely MURDERED | Daily Mail Online

Interesting to note that a hat was on the dashboard. This would most likely indicate that he wore the hat when driving/out of the vehicle during the day. It looks like he's taken the hat off and put it on the dashboard, as it was nighttime and he had no reason to wear it, ie after arriving at the campsite after going to the station to make the call on the radio.

The implication could be that something happened to Russell and Carol during the night, not the following day. Otherwise the hat would have been taken out of the car to be worn.

As the vehicle was found locked with belongs still inside, this further makes me think something occurred during the evening and not during the day. During the day, it is likely belongings would have been removed from the vehicle and put in the tent and the vehicle would have been unlocked, as they would most likely be sorting out the campsite in the morning before venturing anywhere. It would have taken a reasonable amount of time to finish sorting out the camp site and have breakfast. It is more likely the vehicle would have been locked before they went to bed and then unlocked when they arose the following day to remove items from the vehicle.

Yes I agree 100%, I thought the hat on the dashboard was interesting too, if they had gone for a walk saturday morning surely he would have been wearing the hat.
And the locked car, with a well setup canopy like Russell’s he would have a place for everything, no point keeping things in the tent when they have their own spot in the canopy, so you would imagine first thing in the morning he would be in there it and would be unlocked

 

[Panda]

Yes I agree 100%, I thought the hat on the dashboard was interesting too, if they had gone for a walk saturday morning surely he would have been wearing the hat.
And the locked car, with a well setup canopy like Russell’s he would have a place for everything, no point keeping things in the tent when they have their own spot in the canopy, so you would imagine first thing in the morning he would be in there it and would be unlocked

Precisely my thoughts. That vehicle has been in that same position since Russell parked it in the evening they arrived.

Given that Russell doesn't stray far from the campsite, he would have had that vehicle open with the canopy set up the following morning, so everything was nicely organised and easily accessible.

 

[bearbear]

Another thing I noticed from the photo of the toilet tent. The door is open, which to me would indicate it most likely was left open at night, so that Carol would find it easier to go to the toilet in the middle of the night, rather than mess about with having to undo the zipper to open the door. It is also more likely that it would be zippered up during the day. Firstly, because it isn't an attractive look to have a toilet staring at you, secondly, even though it's a chemical toilet, it is more likely to attract flies and thirdly, no-one would leave the door open during the day whilst preparing breakfast, for example, as it is quite close to the tent/cooking set up. Toilets are usually set up a reasonable distance away from the tent/cooking area, which makes me think that Carol, given her age, had a bladder problem and needed to go to the toilet a number of times during the night.

This is another reason why I believe something may have happened to them during the evening and not during the day.

Having said that, the drone is missing. It is more likely it would have been left in the car or have been used at the time of their disappearance. It's possible it was put in the tent, however, given a lack of space and given the other items were left in the vehicle, I'm not sure that would be logical.

i agree, makes sense something happened during the night, easier to creep up unseen, especially if they were sound asleep,
and wouldnt burning the campsite destroy any blood evidence?
their bodies could be buried miles away driven away with their bedding,
if this happened it could point to a personal planned attack rather than some random psycho stealing a drone, unless the theft was a strategy to assume a robbery motive?

 

[bearbear]

the hat on the dashboard tells so much, is this why the photos only now been released?

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Almost all msm comments coming out of Australia were foul play from day one. You guys go camping. I’ll watch your home movies when you get back.

ETA: I’ve had a few close calls over the years. And that was before the world got crazy. Even a cat only has 9 lives.

 

[Panda]

i agree, makes sense something happened during the night, easier to creep up unseen, especially if they were sound asleep,
and wouldnt burning the campsite destroy any blood evidence?
their bodies could be buried miles away driven away with their bedding,
if this happened it could point to a personal planned attack rather than some random psycho stealing a drone, unless the theft was a strategy to assume a robbery motive?

Well, here's the thing. Nothing (other than the drone) is missing. Theft definitely wasn't the motive.

I don't know anything about forensics really to know what evidence may have been left if they were killed in the tent. You bring up a good point though. If they were killed in the tent perhaps whilst still in sleeping bag and carried out and placed in a waiting vehicle, I don't imagine there would be any blood evidence from being carried. However, the fact the police couldn't find any accelerant is puzzling. I'm wondering how the tent would have been set on fire to completely destroy any evidence. I certainly don't think if this theory is worth exploring, that it would have been a random attack.

I'm sure I read somewhere, though I could be mistaken, that dogs were used. Did they only use search dogs, from which they evidently didn't find any trace? I wonder if they used other types of dogs that could detect blood, bone, etc. Once again, I don't know much about the use of dogs, other than I know they use dogs that can pick up trauma and cadaver dogs to detect human remains but by the time they "decided" it was a case of a third party being involved and foul play and not a simple accident, I suspect it was too late for any dogs to pick up any scent.

I do strongly suspect there was more than one person involved however if the police's theory of foul play is correct.

 

[Panda]

Does anyone know if the drone was purchased by Russell, or was it a present that was gifted to him?

 

[bearbear]

im not suggesting this happened but there are untraceable ways of starting a fire....
Arsonists use CRISPS to start fires as fat is 'untraceable' accelerant | Daily Mail Online

 

[Morrisa]

Missing campers had been in a secret relationship for years when they vanished without trace | Daily Mail Online

Russell Hill and his 'camping buddy' Carol Clay had been in a secret relationship for years before they vanished without a trace in the Victorian wilderness.

 

[Panda]

im not suggesting this happened but there are untraceable ways of starting a fire....
Arsonists use CRISPS to start fires as fat is 'untraceable' accelerant | Daily Mail Online

That is so interesting! I use vaseline wrapped in cotton wool balls and if I don't have any vaseline, cooking oil to get my wood heater going. I also burn all left over meat products so as not to attract rats, mice and consequently snakes, which go off like nobody's business because of the fat content. It never occurred to me however that there wouldn't be any trace for forensics.

 

[Panda]

Missing campers had been in a secret relationship for years when they vanished without trace | Daily Mail Online

Russell Hill and his 'camping buddy' Carol Clay had been in a secret relationship for years before they vanished without a trace in the Victorian wilderness.

Well, one always has to look for motive. Hence, I was curious as to whether the drone was a present, or the money to buy to buy the drone was gifted.

I'm not suggesting any family members are involved however, from a logical stand point, hypothetically, if someone found out their father/husband, whomever, had been having an affair with someone for a long time behind their back, and they further found out he was playing with a toy that was gifted to him, that could be reason enough to be pretty angry and could explain the disappearance of the "toy".

 

[Steffy_jade]

I think taking the drone makes sense in any foul play situation, whether a random attack, an escalated argument with other people they’ve come across or an attack by someone they knew etc. there would always be the possibility they had captured some footage on the drone that linked the person to the being in the area such as a car or campsite. Taking the drone could just be the person/persons covering their tracks