Australia Australia - Tegan Lane, 2 days old, Sydney, 14 Sept 1996 *K. Lane guilty*

[CuriosityKilledtheCat]

When did Duncan find out about child one and three? When did he learn he was not the father of either? Before Keli was interviewed by Keogh or after?

Duncan found out about baby #3 in 1999. Virginia Fung wrote to him via the Manly Rugby Club as she was having trouble contacting him and Keli had named him as the father. Duncan sat on the letter for about week. In that week his friend Clayton who was living in his old Gladesville house gave him an envelope containing photos of a baby with the name "Keli Lane" written on the back. Keli had told Virginia that she was staying at Duncan's old address. Virginia had sent the photos there as Keli had left them behind after a meeting.

Duncan did get in contact with Virginia Fung at that time in 1999 and denied he could have been the father as they had broken up more than a year prior. Duncan and his partner then confronted Keli about the letter and the photos. Keli knew then that they knew about the baby. That is when Keli had to change her story with Virginia Fung about Duncan being the father and made up the Aaron Williams story.

Duncan already knew about baby #3 when he was contacted by Detective Kehoe about "Tegan". I am not sure exactly when he found out about baby #1. I'll see if I can find out anything about that.

 

[The Observer]

Nevermind.

 

[CuriosityKilledtheCat]

When did Duncan find out about child one and three? When did he learn he was not the father of either? Before Keli was interviewed by Keogh or after?

Duncan complied with a Police directive to do a paternity test during the coronial inquest for baby #1. It was then that it was discovered that he was not the father. It was around June 2005 I believe.

 

[Bohemian]

Keli is entitled to be treated fairly and without bias, surely.

A two day old baby is missing, this is serious. Keli has named another person of interest, who could also be a suspect.

I haven't located a copy of the police operations procedures manual for NSW. May be someone else knows where to find one. It would be good to know.

I have located a public edition of the Queensland Police Operations Procedures Manual though. https://www.police.qld.gov.au/corporatedocs/OperationalPolicies/Documents/OPM/Chapter2.pdf

Surely, NSW police are obliged to use similar techniques but someone else may know more, as this is not an area I am familiar with at all. The Queensland manual outlines the means identification to be used by police for identifying suspects and at the head of that and stated in 2.11 is the need for police to ensure fairness in identification of suspects. Sure, it does not make it compulsory to use a comfit but there is nothing else to go on here.

The means of identification used by police are listed in the Queensland Manual at 2.11.3 and include:

• selection from crowds;
• photographic, including photo boards and digital photographic line-up boards;
• Comfit;
• dock;
• DNA;
• stylometric or authorship;
• handwriting;
• voice;
• spectrograph or voice print;
• similar fact;
• fingerprint, palmprint and footprint;
• forensic procedures;
• video tape; and
• computer generated images.

They have nothing on "Andrew". No DNA. No handwriting, no photographs that witnesses can identify him from. There is nothing!! Surely that makes the comfit necessary.

2.11.8 of the Queensland manual refers to the Queensland policy and it is clear, that it is a method of identification that is to be used. Queensland also has a separate Comfit Handbook which I also have not found.

You make an interesting point about the former detectives and now PI's that Chris Murphy got to look over this case. How can they have leads for a couple of years and still not come up with anything? Why didn't they commission a comfit?

Honestly, IMO the comfit was not the only error of the investigation.

I wonder if the ABC will interview these former detectives and PI on camera and show where the investigation went wrong at the grass roots level; correct the bias; correct the incorrect assumptions, have a number of good identifications of "Andrew" from the comfit and therefore find "Andrew" in Episode 4. One can only hope.

BBM.

‘Major crime investigation

For guidance about investigating major crime refer to the Investigation of Major Crime Guidelines (issued by State Crime Command). Also refer to the ‘Investigation referral and assessment’ guideline in this Handbook. (Both guidelines are also available on the State Crime Commands Intranet site).’

Source: https://www.police.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/197469/NSW_Police_Handbook.pdf (p. 224)

 

[Via Marple]

(both snipped)

I took you more literally as saying that if Caro was finally satisfied that Keli was a liar, she would end her involvement. I didn't think you were saying that you thought Keli was not a liar, though you tend to minimize the business ("Keli tells stories", "gets details wrong").

I did wonder what Anne Buist meant with her answer to Caro's question whether Keli was a pathological liar. As I recall she said, after hesitating, "Not as a diagnosis, no." Is that because "pathological liar" is not a diagnosis, not a classification available to her as a psychiatrist? I believe she indicated that there were signs of Keli lying specifically regarding "Andrew Norris". I agree that AB did not rule out Keli being innocent of murder.

The comfit maker said that he believed Keli was describing an actual person. That proves that Keli has at some stage seen a human being. It is not evidence of anything in relation to Keli's innocence or guilt; at best it might be a lead.

BBM

I had previously spoken to a psychiatrist to try to understand if someone might be a pathological liar. I got the understanding that there were certain criteria to be met, to be medically diagnosed as such. Not every lying person is a pathological liar in the medical sense.

I also looked up Google for this question and here is a good article I found
Pathological Liar: How to Cope with Someone’s Compulsive Lies

Interestingly it says

Diagnosing a pathological liar can be difficult because of the many possible causes of the behavior. Speaking with the person and conducting a medical history and interview isn’t usually enough to make a diagnosis because of the person’s tendency to lie.

If Keli were to say tomorrow that actually she gave the baby to Andrew Nguyen and he was an apprentice plumber and he didn't look anything like that blonde guy and he lived two blocks away in a flat somewhat resembling the one she pointed out, but she had good personal reasons for all those lies, Caro could fairly walk away.

*snipped*
ROTFL this is so cruel!

 

[Bohemian]

A couple of interesting articles:

Pregnancy denial linked to lifestyle

Psychiatry Online

 

[CuriosityKilledtheCat]

A couple of interesting articles:

Pregnancy denial linked to lifestyle

Psychiatry Online

Interesting articles, Bo. I bet Keli is glad Dr Kaplan did not give evidence.

There are multiple examples too around the world where women have been in denial about pregnancy and have gone on to abandon their babies. Denial of pregnancy does not have to end in murder.

This is a case that recently came to light in the US with multiple denied pregnancies. Sadly the mother did die in childbirth with pregnancy denial and a stillborn son. Her husband had no idea of the multiple pregnancies and births. There ended up being 5 children, he only knew of the first 2 which he was raising with his wife.

Woman abandoned at birth discovers she has multiple siblings

The statistic quoted in the article is that pregnancy denial is surprisingly common and may occur in 1 in 400 women.

This is another case in the US where a single mother hid 3 pregnancies from everyone who knew her and went on to abandon 3 babies.

Mom on Why She Abandoned 3 Babies at Birth 3 Times

This is a Canadian case of another mother who hid pregnancies and abandoned multiple babies.

Janet Keall finds dad and her B.C. mom who abandoned five babies and kept secret to death

There are many more examples.

Prof Buist said that Keli does not fit in the narrative of mothers who murder, but could have conceivably abandoned "Tegan" or given her away in the context of doing what was best for the baby. Keli's evidence is that if Andrew had not turned up at the hospital, she would have abandoned "Tegan" there.

Interestingly, it was announced today on the Exposed ABC Facebook page that Caro Meldrum-Hanna is going to be offline for a few weeks. Intriguing?

 

[The Observer]

We're now looking for a postie from 20+ years ago...

Dunja Karagic

 

[Bohemian]

We're now looking for a postie from 20+ years ago...

Dunja Karagic

So, presumably, they are looking for a Balmain postie who delivered to the Wisbeach Street units in 1994-96 and who remembers mail addressed to a Mr Andrew, or even a Mr A., Whatsisname? Or has Keli suddenly remembered that Tegan’s father was an employee of Australia Post? The mind boggles.

 

[Bohemian]

Interesting articles, Bo. I bet Keli is glad Dr Kaplan did not give evidence.

There are multiple examples too around the world where women have been in denial about pregnancy and have gone on to abandon their babies. Denial of pregnancy does not have to end in murder.

This is a case that recently came to light in the US with multiple denied pregnancies. Sadly the mother did die in childbirth with pregnancy denial and a stillborn son. Her husband had no idea of the multiple pregnancies and births. There ended up being 5 children, he only knew of the first 2 which he was raising with his wife.

Woman abandoned at birth discovers she has multiple siblings

The statistic quoted in the article is that pregnancy denial is surprisingly common and may occur in 1 in 400 women.

This is another case in the US where a single mother hid 3 pregnancies from everyone who knew her and went on to abandon 3 babies.

Mom on Why She Abandoned 3 Babies at Birth 3 Times

This is a Canadian case of another mother who hid pregnancies and abandoned multiple babies.

Janet Keall finds dad and her B.C. mom who abandoned five babies and kept secret to death

There are many more examples.

Prof Buist said that Keli does not fit in the narrative of mothers who murder, but could have conceivably abandoned "Tegan" or given her away in the context of doing what was best for the baby. Keli's evidence is that if Andrew had not turned up at the hospital, she would have abandoned "Tegan" there.

Interestingly, it was announced today on the Exposed ABC Facebook page that Caro Meldrum-Hanna is going to be offline for a few weeks. Intriguing?

She might be on leave or else is researching/filming for this, or another, story. The world does not revolve around Keli Lane.

 

[Via Marple]

A couple of interesting articles:

Pregnancy denial linked to lifestyle

Psychiatry Online

Interesting conclusion in the American research article:

CONCLUSIONS: The results of the review suggest that little is known about the predictors of maternal filicide and that a systematic, focused program of research on reliable markers for maternal filicide is needed to better prevent these events.

For me it means you have to take the psychiatrist diagnosis with a grain of salt. It is not yet a precise science.

For every Prof Buist there is a Dr Kaplan. Or was it Dr Diamond who testified at the trial?

 

[Via Marple]

She might be on leave or else is researching/filming for this, or another, story. The world does not revolve around Keli Lane.

My first thought was she is taking a break! It has been hard work.

 

[Via Marple]

So, presumably, they are looking for a Balmain postie who delivered to the Wisbeach Street units in 1994-96 and who remembers mail addressed to a Mr Andrew, or even a Mr A., Whatsisname? Or has Keli suddenly remembered that Tegan’s father was an employee of Australia Post? The mind boggles.

A long shot.

 

[Bohemian]

Interesting conclusion in the American research article:

For me it means you have to take the psychiatrist diagnosis with a grain of salt. It is not yet a precise science.

For every Prof Buist there is a Dr Kaplan. Or was it Dr Diamond who testified at the trial?

Exactly VM.

Dr Michael Diamond gave expert evidence at Keli’s trial:

R v Keli LANE [2011] NSWSC 289 (15 April 2011)

 

[Via Marple]

Exactly VM.

Dr Michael Diamond gave expert evidence at Keli’s trial:

R v Keli LANE [2011] NSWSC 289 (15 April 2011)

It has to be said that the other two experts have not met Keli. Although my previous post has found that article that says meeting the patient doesn't mean they can diagnose properly, if patient is lying!

I can imagine if there is re-trial, the case against Keli could easily find another doctor/professor who would meet Keli... And decide that she had killed Tegan

 

[CuriosityKilledtheCat]

She might be on leave or else is researching/filming for this, or another, story. The world does not revolve around Keli Lane.

Of course not! But she announced she had real leads and info last Wednesday week, was on the trail on information and was going to get to the bottom of this last Tuesday and has not been posting since.

 

[CuriosityKilledtheCat]

It has to be said that the other two experts have not met Keli. Although my previous post has found that article that says meeting the patient doesn't mean they can diagnose properly, if patient is lying!

I can imagine if there is re-trial, the case against Keli could easily find another doctor/professor who would meet Keli... And decide that she had killed Tegan

I think Keli would decline to meet with another doctor/psychiatrist.

 

[Bohemian]

Of course not! But she announced she had real leads and info last Wednesday week, was on the trail on information and was going to get to the bottom of this last Tuesday and has not been posting since.

Well, that’s true. I didn’t mean to be sharp with you. Keli Lane, and the attention (and sympathy) she is receiving whilst one of her children is still missing, presumed murdered as a result of her actions, irks me; quite frankly.

 

[CuriosityKilledtheCat]

Well, that’s true. I didn’t mean to be sharp with you. Keli Lane, and the attention (and sympathy) she is receiving whilst one of her children is still missing, presumed murdered as a result of her actions, irks me; quite frankly.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion based on their interpretation of the evidence that has been publicly released so far. Robust debate is healthy and I understand perfectly the scepticism in this case too.

I do think a lot of people will change their minds in time when more information is released.

 

[drsleuth]

Exactly VM.

Dr Michael Diamond gave expert evidence at Keli’s trial:

R v Keli LANE [2011] NSWSC 289 (15 April 2011)

Hmm Dr D........