Australia Australia - Theo Hayez, 18, Belgian backpacker, Byron Bay, June 2019 #3

[T-dawg420]

Theo Hayez's family reject police theory that backpacker fell into ocean

 

[Rocket333]

I generally point put at this stage to people touting conspiracy theories (and I myself have hinted questioned the police force many times); that limiting one's focus with such a theory is generally a wasted effort. To consider such a theory, we must believe that all the police involved with handling the phone, and all those police that knew about it would turn a blind eye. Now mothers and fathers are police officers and keeping evidence such as TH's phone does not only have legal ramifications but also personal ones. To suggest police would willingly keep such evidence quiet is very far fetched. If there is some operating in the BB community, do you really think the police force is going to protect a killer?

I'm quite disappointed to see such a limited perspective and that a member of this group would tell another to open their eyes to a conspiracy theory. The thing that makes this page great is the various perspectives and avenues for information and opinion. It's just like GM saying I know what happened, TH ran off and joined a hippy cult.
Not cool.

If you’re alleging the “conspiracy theory” suggestion was mine, it wasn’t. I don’t do conspiracies. If you’re referring to my inclusion of the David Murray saying that the police said the phone wasn’t Theo’s, I am pointing out that this statement didn’t come directly from the police AND it could be inaccurate given other ambiguous accounts of police responses and actions. My point is to question everything, even the perceived police activity and position.

 

[T-dawg420]

Oh, I have taken this into account. The police force were accused of doing this during the Ivan Milat case by a person named Alister Shipsey. The allegation was that they framed IM for the murders because the Olympic games were coming to AUS and that the muders were chasing the $$ away.
Once again, imagine why some of these people joined the police force. Now consider that for this to work, all the members of the BB police would have to be in agreement, otherwise, there's no secrecy. All the coppers involved would have to comply with this rhetoric. The next thing we have to consider is that outside agencies are also part of the investigation, and one way or another if the BB police were withholding evidence, there is a chance they would be discovered. I mean there are a lot of reasons why this theory is questionable. Then we must consider the systems within the police force and justice departments and how it was decided to protect a potential killer, and how that works with other departments. It's an unlikely suggestion.

I wonder how many times a police officer has been told by an outranking officer to stop their investigations even when their entire existence tells they should keep investigating.

Perhaps along with the reading on the coroner, people can read about police investigations going bad. And the many reasons why investigations can go bad.

It doesn’t have to be the entire force...one or two high ranking officers with a lot of sway can effect whole police departments..

Once again it’s great reading.....I’m not saying the Byron bay police did this with this investigation...

That kid getting assaulted by the police office that was played in the podcast shows that even the Byron police can make poor decisions

Imo

 

[Rocket333]

I generally point put at this stage to people touting conspiracy theories (and I myself have hinted questioned the police force many times); that limiting one's focus with such a theory is generally a wasted effort. To consider such a theory, we must believe that all the police involved with handling the phone, and all those police that knew about it would turn a blind eye. Now mothers and fathers are police officers and keeping evidence such as TH's phone does not only have legal ramifications but also personal ones. To suggest police would willingly keep such evidence quiet is very far fetched. If there is some operating in the BB community, do you really think the police force is going to protect a killer?

I'm quite disappointed to see such a limited perspective and that a member of this group would tell another to open their eyes to a conspiracy theory. The thing that makes this page great is the various perspectives and avenues for information and opinion. It's just like GM saying I know what happened, TH ran off and joined a hippy cult.
Not cool.

If you’re alleging the “conspiracy theory” suggestion was mine, it wasn’t. I don’t do conspiracies. If you’re referring to my inclusion of the David Murray saying that the police said the phone wasn’t Theo’s, I am pointing out that this statement didn’t come directly from the police AND it could be inaccurate given other ambiguous accounts of police responses and actions. My point is to question everything, even the perceived police activity and position.

 

[BusterXP]

I remember initially they kept misreporting times and got the AM and PM mixed up just had not seen it put like this with the couple hours after part.

Some of the early reports that had am and pm mixed up came from Belgian newspapers and not from disclosed Police reports.
We know that there were information leaks. Some of those leaks may have had crossed wires as they were reported to the media or an error may have been made when publishing.
I recall questioning the time error when I first saw it in a Belgian newspaper.

 

[T-dawg420]

My point is to question everything, even the perceived police activity and position.

Totally agree with this statement. Every possibility should be looked at.

I assume it’s why the family had David Murray make a podcast

I assume it’s why the family engaged a PI

They wouldn’t if they were happy with what the police said happened .

Imo

 

[Aron.Wor]

I wonder how many times a police officer has been told by an outranking officer to stop their investigations even when their entire existence tells they should keep investigating.

Perhaps along with the reading on the coroner, people can read about police investigations going bad. And the many reasons why investigations can go bad.

It doesn’t have to be the entire force...one or two high ranking officers with a lot of sway can effect whole police departments..

Once again it’s great reading.....I’m not saying the Byron bay police did this with this investigation...

That kid getting assaulted by the police office that was played in the podcast shows that even the Byron police can make poor decisions

Imo

Do you do everything your supervisor tells you, especially if it goes against your moral code? I wouldn't.
But I do agree that the BB police force are making illogical or 'easy' conclusions.

 

[SouthAussie]

Do you do everything your supervisor tells you, especially if it goes against your moral code? I wouldn't.
But I do agree that the BB police force are making illogical or 'easy' conclusions.

As musso and I have tried to point out, it is eye opening when a person realises how much police have done behind the scene - without family knowledge, without public knowledge.

I sometimes wonder if the police have discovered exactly why Theo was at the headlands that night - and they are not revealing that info due to Theo being an adult and, as such, he is entitled to privacy in his personal life.

 

[T-dawg420]

Do you do everything your supervisor tells you, especially if it goes against your moral code? I wouldn't.
But I do agree that the BB police force are making illogical or 'easy' conclusions.

Me personally I wouldn’t,,, but that’s why I’m not a cop or in the armed forces.

While police aren’t the same as the army etc, they are taught differently to a ‘normal’ job. When you are a subordinate, You are taught to follow directives of your superiors without question.

We are also talking about police, they have the ability and power to be a lot more ‘persuasive’ In getting you to follow an order that your morals don’t agree with than a supervisor at a KFC.. imo

 

[BusterXP]

Why haven’t Theo’s family come out and taken what the police have said for gospel?

Maybe partly because there is hope. There are also unanswered questions, some that may never be answered.
I've wondered if, at a psychological level, it may be 'easier' (poor use of word) to channel grief and doubt into 'something'. Everyone wants answers.
An unknown fate leaves hope.

 

[feralflower]

Here is a really good read re Coronial Inquests in missing persons. https://www.researchgate.net/public...spected_Deaths_Prevalence_and_Outcomes_in_NSW

 

[Rocket333]

As musso and I have tried to point out, it is eye opening when a person realises how much police have done behind the scene - without family knowledge, without public knowledge.

I sometimes wonder if the police have discovered exactly why Theo was at the headlands that night - and they are not revealing that info due to Theo being an adult and, as such, he is entitled to privacy in his personal life.

No need for you & Musso to point that out as I for one am quite aware. My point was, until all cards are laid evenly on the table for all to see, question everything.

 

[SouthAussie]

No need for you & Musso to point that out as I for one am quite aware. My point was, until all cards are laid evenly on the table for all to see, question everything.

You may have noticed that I was not responding to a post by you.

And I don't believe that the poster that I was responding to - about the subject - was replying, in their post, to you either.

This thread has many participating members, some of who may not be aware of the revelations of an inquest. And if they are, they can roll and scroll.

 

[Rocket333]

Maybe partly because there is hope. There are also unanswered questions, some that may never be answered.
I've wondered if, at a psychological level, it may be 'easier' (poor use of word) to channel grief and doubt into 'something'. Everyone wants answers.
An unknown fate leaves hope.

Oh you would as the family. Their grief defies words and logic. It’d be all encompassing and they would need to make sure they did everything possible for Theo and for themselves. We also wouldn’t be hear chewing so long over each part if their suspicions and perspective didn’t hold some water. It’s hard to understand why the police haven’t been clear and direct with their findings and information, at the very least with the family, except that there’s no body, and their findings aren’t watertight.

 

[BusterXP]

Oh you would as the family. Their grief defies words and logic. It’d be all encompassing and they would need to make sure they did everything possible for Theo and for themselves. We also wouldn’t be hear chewing so long over each part if their suspicions and perspective didn’t hold some water. It’s hard to understand why the police haven’t been clear and direct with their findings and information, at the very least with the family, except that there’s no body, and their findings aren’t watertight.

I think loss and grief and doubt can have many faces and some that only show their face at different times.
I've tried to deal with the loss of an ex partner who took her own life. I want answers but I will never have them. I want to hold people who made her life difficult towards the end responsible. I feel that way at times. I can't go back and say 'wake up to yourself' or try and make things better like I could when we were together. I can't change it but there's a desire to hold some responsible to some extent at times.

 

[Rocket333]

You may have noticed that I was not responding to a post by you.

And I don't believe that the poster that I was responding to - about the subject - was replying, in their post, to you either.

This thread has many participating members, some of who may not be aware of the revelations of an inquest.

I didn’t notice as it wasn’t clear, so thanks for checking as now it’s clear. Inquests are generally fascinating for what is revealed, most especially (typically) the unrelenting police commitment and work. In the meanwhile with Theo’s disappearance, while we wait for these revelations, we are left to amateurly sleuth as equals with all the the tools and scraps of info in our possession.

 

[SouthAussie]

I think loss and grief and doubt can have many faces and some that only show their face at different times.
I've tried to deal with the loss of an ex partner who took her own life. I want answers but I will never have them. I want to hold people who made her life difficult towards the end responsible. I feel that way at times. I can't go back and say 'wake up to yourself' or try and make things better like I could when we were together. I can't change it but there's a desire to hold some responsible to some extent at times.

So sorry for your loss, Buster. And her loss, too. Life is filled with mountains and valleys. If only we could all know, in those darkest of moments, that there can still be much joy ahead in years to come.

 

[T-dawg420]

As musso and I have tried to point out, it is eye opening when a person realises how much police have done behind the scene - without family knowledge, without public knowledge.

I sometimes wonder if the police have discovered exactly why Theo was at the headlands that night - and they are not revealing that info due to Theo being an adult and, as such, he is entitled to privacy in his personal life.

I’ve been thinking for a while that the investigation could have been bungled. Maybe they thought it was just an easy, open and shut case but then as more info came in, the realisation that a more thorough investigation was needed and maybe they jumped the gun in their assumption and instead of covering a crime, they cover incompetence?

But thinking rationally and without blinkers on. Would the police really refer it to the coroner if there was a possibility their investigation practices (or lack thereof) coming into question, ie if they were incompetent?

Esp with the heat on them from 2018 assault on the kid.

Maybe partly because there is hope. There are also unanswered questions, some that may never be answered.
I've wondered if, at a psychological level, it may be 'easier' (poor use of word) to channel grief and doubt into 'something'. Everyone wants answers.
An unknown fate leaves hope.

Good point this.. esp when emotions are involved pointing the finger at someone is very easy to do and sometimes it’s needed!

And I’m the first to admit the police are a very easy target to point the finger at.

I’m like rocket though, I just think until it is 100% known, all possibilities no matter how small or unlikely should be looked at.

 

[Rocket333]

I think loss and grief and doubt can have many faces and some that only show their face at different times.
I've tried to deal with the loss of an ex partner who took her own life. I want answers but I will never have them. I want to hold people who made her life difficult towards the end responsible. I feel that way at times. I can't go back and say 'wake up to yourself' or try and make things better like I could when we were together. I can't change it but there's a desire to hold some responsible to some extent at times.

So sorry you experienced that Buster, and totally understand, agree and relate. Hoping also that you’re being kind to you have forgiving yourself if needed.

To have something or someone to hold to account is perhaps preferable to him being lost at sea. They need closure and without his body and it feeling resolved could mean the raw agony feels eternal.
They seem a sensible and reasonable bunch of people, and I’d imagine they’re just doing what’s right for them and given what they know. Given everything I know and have seen, I am in agreeance with what they’re saying.

 

[Deleted member 249471]

Some things to consider about phone given all the questions about sand and water:

Last GPS location was at 12.05 am Cosy Corner.

There was a ping at 12.56 am ‘near town’. Still appears to be Theo using phone and google maps.

After 2am, the phone was moved into a low signal area. Personally, I doubt it was buried in sand because it was likely no longer on beach and even if it was in sand, it was dug out shortly after. This also means it wasn’t in water.

After 4am, the phone was moved somewhere with a regular signal strength.

Around 6am, the phone exited sleep mode. Possibilities include it being checked, charged, moved to another tower range, Telstra automatically placing it in ‘active mode’, or alarm going off (must ask godfather and cousin if Theo was an early riser or ever set phone alarm).

Last ping was at 1.42pm on Cape Byron, not CC beach. Didn’t appear to have weak signal so not in sand or water.

Phone found in mid July was on CC beach.

Could not be Theo’s phone. Could be Theo’s phone but wiped clean of finger prints and DNA. Could be a new phone planted to look like Theo’s.