Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

  • #461
Just gonna compile some of the concerning & interesting developments.

Saudi sisters: Crucifixes found in Alsehli siblings' Canterbury unit | Daily Mail Online
One of the employees from their building management company told Daily Mail Australia there were two crucifixes found on the floor of one of the bedrooms.

It is unclear whether the crosses belonged to the women, or if they indicated they had renounced Islam.

Sources reveal contents of Canterbury apartment where Saudi sisters, Amaal and Asra Alsehli, found dead - ABC News
The ABC has confirmed that the sisters had applied for a protection visa with the Department of Home Affairs, and they had been in contact with a settlement service for refugees.

Michael Baird, a director of Sydney's Transparent FM Building Management which manages the Canterbury apartment block, said he was aware that the young women were concerned about their safety.

In a January 2022 email sent to the site manager, younger sister Amaal asked if building management could check the security cameras as she feared someone had tampered with a recent food delivery order.

Mr. Baird said his first interaction with the women had taken place earlier this year when their car had been "keyed".

"We believed that it was not a personal attack to them because they'd parked their car in an unusual position. And somebody's obviously taken offence to it," Mr Baird said, about the incident.

His second interaction with the women was when he organised for a plumber to visit their apartment.

"When [the plumber] came out of that unit, he said that he was concerned that there was something untoward happening in the apartment. He got a very bad vibe," Mr Baird said.

"He was pretty shaken up. He said, 'I'm never coming back to that apartment again'."

Mr Baird asked the local site manager to contact the police at the time and he understood that the women had subsequently told police they were fine.
[MY NOTE: ah, so this is why there was a welfare check - they freaked out the plumber... i'd like to hear from him]

Another building worker told the ABC that he knew that the women had noticed a man watching their apartment from across the street.

The worker, who is familiar with the building's residents, said he'd also seen an unknown Middle Eastern man inside the building on two occasions in the months leading up to the sisters' death.

The building worker said when he asked the man which apartment he was from, the man gave the women's address.


[Their neighbor and friend] Rita said the sisters' mother had visited Australia on one occasion.

"Their mum came here once. She didn't like it. Then she went back to her country," Rita said.


The young women led a discreet life. They didn't have many visitors, apart from a man Rita believed to be Asra's boyfriend, an "Iraqi man with a beard".

At the time of publication, Rita said the police had not interviewed her or her family. The police also have not interviewed the building manager.

Saudi sisters Asra, Amaal Abdullah Asehli: Sydney man who was hit with restraining order speaks | Daily Mail Online
  • Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, were asylum seekers
  • They jumped on a plane from Saudi Arabia to Sydney, via Hong Kong, with $5k
  • Five years after arriving in Sydney, they were found dead in their unit in June
  • Asra took out an AVO against a man in 2018 - but the matter was dropped in 2019
  • The man said he met Asra in the street and struck up a non-romantic friendship
  • He said she took out an AVO after they had a 'small fight' but it was revoked
The sisters' only known interaction with the Australian justice system occurred in 2018, when Asra filed an apprehended violence order (AVO) against a 28-year-old man. The matter was withdrawn in court the following year.

The man told the Daily Telegraph he struck up a non-romantic friendship with Asra after 'meeting her on the street', before a 'small fight' led her to contact police and take out an AVO.

'We had an argument, you know, like friends do...she was afraid so she contacted the police,' the man told the newspaper. 'Then the three of us went to the police, me, her and Amaal (Asra’s sister) and we told them what happened.

'We went to court [in 2019], the three of us and I told the judge what happened. Amaal explained it was just an argument and Asra was frightened but there was no problem anymore.'


Daily Mail Australia is not suggesting the man had anything to do with the mysterious circumstances that led to the sisters' deaths.

The man said he had not spoken to the sisters for about two years and was 'upset' and 'shocked' to learn of their deaths.

He said he has spoken to the police and told them everything he knows about the women.

For weeks, NSW Police assured media the sisters 'well-connected' family in the Saudi kingdom were 'cooperating' and 'helping' with the investigation.

It has since been alleged that the family blocked detectives from releasing photographs of the women as part of a public appeal to shed light on the baffling case.

Police were unable to explain a delay on the release of toxicology reports which usually takes four to six weeks, despite previously insisting the findings were being 'fast-tracked'.


'That is a matter for the coroner,' police said in response our inquiries.

Until now, investigators always insisted the family were cooperating with investigators and had 'no reason' to believe the Alsehli sisters fled their homeland.

The coroner has not released the bodies of the sisters to their family, although it is understood they could be buried in Sydney.

They were also reported to have renounced Islam and became atheists. One had a boyfriend in Sydney.

Detective Inspector Claudia Allcroft insisted there was 'nothing to suggest' their family was involved in their deaths.


The women were not known to be part of any dissident Saudi networks.

The landlord said the sisters, who it reported fled Saudi Arabia in 2017 with $5,000 during a family holiday, both attended TAFE in Wetherill Park.

They also both worked doing traffic control for a Sydney building company.


'I was shocked when I saw their photos, I have no idea how this could have happened. They were very cute and friendly girls, we never had any problems with them,' their landlord told The Guardian.

The mysterious deaths have made waves on social media, with many Middle Eastern locals asking why the sisters felt the need to escape the Saudi Kingdom.

One man said the women exposed themselves to danger when they left their homeland: 'Do not leave Saudi Arabia in search of freedom. You will not find it.'

Both women registered ABNs in 2018 for sole trading to a Wetherill Park address, in Sydney's west, but police still can't confirm what they did for work.

They also drove a black BMW coupe which normally costs upwards of $38,000, and lived in a modern, two-bedroom $490-per-week apartment.

There were also three welfare checks carried out by police in the months before the girls were finally discovered in separate beds of their first-floor unit as mail piled up outside their door.

2017:
  • Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, are believed to have fled Saudi Arabia during a family holiday
  • They have $5000
  • They flew to Sydney, via Hong Kong, and made contact with a refugee centre.
2019: Asra took an AVO out against a man, but it was later dismissed.

2020: They frequently visited a service station around their flat, with locals describing them as 'friendly'.

2022:
  • Police conducted two welfare checks early in the year.
  • In one of the checks, the pair were described as 'timid' and refused to let anyone enter the apartment.
  • They eventually allowed officers to enter, but stayed huddled together in the far corner of the unit.
May, 2022:
  • The owner of their Canterbury unit filed a civil case against Asra on May 13.
  • That action was taken four weeks after sheriff's officers went to the apartment to serve the women with an eviction notice.
June 7, 2022:
  • Officers conducting a welfare check made the grisly discovery.
  • There was no sign of forced entry.
  • Police believe the sisters died in May, but have not been able to determine a cause of death.
 
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  • #462
If there was some kind of suicide pact (or m/s) maybe one sister waited so there would be someone to hide any "evidence"? Maybe out of concern or consideration for their family they might have agreed to hide or conceal their suicide? Some cultures consider suicide to be shameful and this could be one reason their family didn't want their photos published.

It IS suspicious. M/S, suicide pact, murder all make more sense than both of them dying at the same time from the same thing accidentally or "naturally". If they bought drugs specifically for the purpose of suicide, the only proof might have been ingested weeks ago. FWIW some poisons, heavy metals etc can be detected in hair.

Whatever happened to the footage and the food order? Why did they need a plumber and why did he think something bad was going on there? Did anyone check the building surveillance for images of the Middle Eastern man?
 
  • #463
If the young women had come from a different cultural background, I might be thinking along the lines of them believing they had been cursed, or death-wished, eg "the evil eye", bone-pointing, or similar. For non-Australians, bone-pointing is an Aboriginal practice (possibly extinct nowadays) where a medicine man or shaman literally points a "magic" bone at someone, usually as a punishment. The recipient often sickens and dies, apparently.
In Saudi Arabia there are folk beliefs in witchcraft and sorcery and magic; and the Saudi state, implementing sharia, prosecute people for witchcraft and sorcery and magic for which the penalty is death. And yes, the Saudis do execute people for these "crimes". Many Saudis consider crucifixes as a sign of idolatry, because Christians venerate the cross and to the Saudis, worship it.
The sisters may have been possessed of beliefs in witchcraft and sorcery and magic and it is speculation that they were. I've not seen any reputable information that they were and tend to think they were not. As for the purported discovery of the crucifixes in the apartment, I find this perplexing. Police would remove such items for testing, being small and portable; or they would be bundled with the sisters' other effects. Finding them just lying on the floor is not, as far as I am familiar, with the way police do things.
 
  • #464
Just gonna compile some of the concerning & interesting developments.

Saudi sisters: Crucifixes found in Alsehli siblings' Canterbury unit | Daily Mail Online
One of the employees from their building management company told Daily Mail Australia there were two crucifixes found on the floor of one of the bedrooms.

It is unclear whether the crosses belonged to the women, or if they indicated they had renounced Islam.

Sources reveal contents of Canterbury apartment where Saudi sisters, Amaal and Asra Alsehli, found dead - ABC News
The ABC has confirmed that the sisters had applied for a protection visa with the Department of Home Affairs, and they had been in contact with a settlement service for refugees.

Michael Baird, a director of Sydney's Transparent FM Building Management which manages the Canterbury apartment block, said he was aware that the young women were concerned about their safety.

In a January 2022 email sent to the site manager, younger sister Amaal asked if building management could check the security cameras as she feared someone had tampered with a recent food delivery order.

Mr. Baird said his first interaction with the women had taken place earlier this year when their car had been "keyed".

"We believed that it was not a personal attack to them because they'd parked their car in an unusual position. And somebody's obviously taken offence to it," Mr Baird said, about the incident.

His second interaction with the women was when he organised for a plumber to visit their apartment.

"When [the plumber] came out of that unit, he said that he was concerned that there was something untoward happening in the apartment. He got a very bad vibe," Mr Baird said.

"He was pretty shaken up. He said, 'I'm never coming back to that apartment again'."

Mr Baird asked the local site manager to contact the police at the time and he understood that the women had subsequently told police they were fine.
[MY NOTE: ah, so this is why there was a welfare check - they freaked out the plumber... i'd like to hear from him]

Another building worker told the ABC that he knew that the women had noticed a man watching their apartment from across the street.

The worker, who is familiar with the building's residents, said he'd also seen an unknown Middle Eastern man inside the building on two occasions in the months leading up to the sisters' death.

The building worker said when he asked the man which apartment he was from, the man gave the women's address.


[Their neighbor and friend] Rita said the sisters' mother had visited Australia on one occasion.

"Their mum came here once. She didn't like it. Then she went back to her country," Rita said.


The young women led a discreet life. They didn't have many visitors, apart from a man Rita believed to be Asra's boyfriend, an "Iraqi man with a beard".

At the time of publication, Rita said the police had not interviewed her or her family. The police also have not interviewed the building manager.

Saudi sisters Asra, Amaal Abdullah Asehli: Sydney man who was hit with restraining order speaks | Daily Mail Online
  • Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, were asylum seekers
  • They jumped on a plane from Saudi Arabia to Sydney, via Hong Kong, with $5k
  • Five years after arriving in Sydney, they were found dead in their unit in June
  • Asra took out an AVO against a man in 2018 - but the matter was dropped in 2019
  • The man said he met Asra in the street and struck up a non-romantic friendship
  • He said she took out an AVO after they had a 'small fight' but it was revoked
The sisters' only known interaction with the Australian justice system occurred in 2018, when Asra filed an apprehended violence order (AVO) against a 28-year-old man. The matter was withdrawn in court the following year.

The man told the Daily Telegraph he struck up a non-romantic friendship with Asra after 'meeting her on the street', before a 'small fight' led her to contact police and take out an AVO.

'We had an argument, you know, like friends do...she was afraid so she contacted the police,' the man told the newspaper. 'Then the three of us went to the police, me, her and Amaal (Asra’s sister) and we told them what happened.

'We went to court [in 2019], the three of us and I told the judge what happened. Amaal explained it was just an argument and Asra was frightened but there was no problem anymore.'


Daily Mail Australia is not suggesting the man had anything to do with the mysterious circumstances that led to the sisters' deaths.

The man said he had not spoken to the sisters for about two years and was 'upset' and 'shocked' to learn of their deaths.

He said he has spoken to the police and told them everything he knows about the women.

For weeks, NSW Police assured media the sisters 'well-connected' family in the Saudi kingdom were 'cooperating' and 'helping' with the investigation.

It has since been alleged that the family blocked detectives from releasing photographs of the women as part of a public appeal to shed light on the baffling case.

Police were unable to explain a delay on the release of toxicology reports which usually takes four to six weeks, despite previously insisting the findings were being 'fast-tracked'.


'That is a matter for the coroner,' police said in response our inquiries.

Until now, investigators always insisted the family were cooperating with investigators and had 'no reason' to believe the Alsehli sisters fled their homeland.

The coroner has not released the bodies of the sisters to their family, although it is understood they could be buried in Sydney.

They were also reported to have renounced Islam and became atheists. One had a boyfriend in Sydney.

Detective Inspector Claudia Allcroft insisted there was 'nothing to suggest' their family was involved in their deaths.


The women were not known to be part of any dissident Saudi networks.

The landlord said the sisters, who it reported fled Saudi Arabia in 2017 with $5,000 during a family holiday, both attended TAFE in Wetherill Park.

They also both worked doing traffic control for a Sydney building company.


'I was shocked when I saw their photos, I have no idea how this could have happened. They were very cute and friendly girls, we never had any problems with them,' their landlord told The Guardian.

The mysterious deaths have made waves on social media, with many Middle Eastern locals asking why the sisters felt the need to escape the Saudi Kingdom.

One man said the women exposed themselves to danger when they left their homeland: 'Do not leave Saudi Arabia in search of freedom. You will not find it.'

Both women registered ABNs in 2018 for sole trading to a Wetherill Park address, in Sydney's west, but police still can't confirm what they did for work.

They also drove a black BMW coupe which normally costs upwards of $38,000, and lived in a modern, two-bedroom $490-per-week apartment.

There were also three welfare checks carried out by police in the months before the girls were finally discovered in separate beds of their first-floor unit as mail piled up outside their door.

2017:
  • Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, are believed to have fled Saudi Arabia during a family holiday
  • They have $5000
  • They flew to Sydney, via Hong Kong, and made contact with a refugee centre.
2019: Asra took an AVO out against a man, but it was later dismissed.

2020: They frequently visited a service station around their flat, with locals describing them as 'friendly'.

2022:
  • Police conducted two welfare checks early in the year.
  • In one of the checks, the pair were described as 'timid' and refused to let anyone enter the apartment.
  • They eventually allowed officers to enter, but stayed huddled together in the far corner of the unit.
May, 2022:
  • The owner of their Canterbury unit filed a civil case against Asra on May 13.
  • That action was taken four weeks after sheriff's officers went to the apartment to serve the women with an eviction notice.
June 7, 2022:
  • Officers conducting a welfare check made the grisly discovery.
  • There was no sign of forced entry.
  • Police believe the sisters died in May, but have not been able to determine a cause of death.
The Hong Kong claim in the timeline (I had it in the timeline I posted a few days ago - I should update it) has now been, it appears debunked:
Sydney Morning Herald:
<<Another person with knowledge of the case, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the sisters had travelled to Australia through Jordan and Dubai. Police have been tight-lipped about their movements and visa status.>>
It seems to be confusing this case with another case: [same source]:
<<Another set of sisters who used the names Reem and Rawan were famously detained in Hong Kong in 2018 at the request of Saudi authorities after renouncing Islam and fleeing their family while on holiday with $5000 they had secretly saved.
Contacts of those sisters confirmed to the Herald that they were alive and well in an undisclosed country.>>
 
  • #465
It looks as though the girls' surname has been misspelled in some media articles. It was previously reported as Abdullah Al-Sahli or Abdullah Alsahli, then changed to Alsehli. There's also been a few different spellings of their firstnames - Esraa, Isra, Asra, and Amal and Amaal.
It depends how the Arabic is transliterated. Hence different spelling.
 
  • #466
About 20 percent of people sleep naked. In the case of millenials a whopping 66 percent of them like to sleep naked. Being found naked in bed isn't suspicious on its own. I guess you could assume that a couple of young women who grew up in a hostile environment where they were scrutinized all the time, the likelihood of sleeping naked would be very low. I know if I had a father or brother who might barge into my bedroom to make sure I wasn't engaging in anything 'untoward' I'd be trussed up like a mummy.

About the crucifix. Yes, it could be a symbol of their new found freedom from the oppression of their original faith. But why would they want to replace a discarded religion with a new one that comes with its own set of rules? I find that people who abandon their faith, regardless of what it was, are less likely to embrace another one so quickly. That isn't to say that people without religion are without spirituality, in fact they can be more in tune with true spirituality than someone restricted by dogma.

In the Muslim faith converting to Christianity is apostasy. Renouncing Islam is apostasy and can be considered treason by many Muslim clerics although not all Muslim countries mete out punishment for it. Two countries, Iran and Saudi Arabia, still believe apostates should be sentenced to death. Is there any evidence that during their years in Australia they showed an interest in Christianity, attending church services or asking questions about it? If the answer is no, then perhaps the presence of the crucifixes take on a much darker meaning.

Someone upthread mentioned witchcraft. It made me wonder about how fear and the paranoia of discovery exacerbated by the extended isolation of Covid could manifest itself in attempts to ward off the dangers of being found out. It's going into cray cray territory but there is such a thing as spiritual possession and exorcism in Islam. If the sisters were beset by fear and paranoia perhaps they used crucifixes as talismans to ward off any attempts to be possessed.


Honestly, I don't know what to think about these poor girls' deaths. They don't appear to be natural deaths to me, but I don't think they are suicides either. At least, not suicides in the traditional sense. Like the way all those people jumped from the Twin Towers on 9/11. They weren't killing themselves they were fleeing from being burned alive. These deaths are mysterious and the mystery is enhanced by the cryptic remarks of the landlord and plumber and the general demeanor of the sisters when they were visited for wellness checks. The fact that more than wellness check was made is incredibly sad because no one could ever have predicted this outcome.
 
  • #467
The Hong Kong claim in the timeline (I had it in the timeline I posted a few days ago - I should update it) has now been, it appears debunked:
Sydney Morning Herald:
<<Another person with knowledge of the case, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the sisters had travelled to Australia through Jordan and Dubai. Police have been tight-lipped about their movements and visa status.>>
It seems to be confusing this case with another case: [same source]:
<<Another set of sisters who used the names Reem and Rawan were famously detained in Hong Kong in 2018 at the request of Saudi authorities after renouncing Islam and fleeing their family while on holiday with $5000 they had secretly saved.
Contacts of those sisters confirmed to the Herald that they were alive and well in an undisclosed country.>>
If you look at the story of their travels on their twitter account, you will see that it's the same sisters. Their ages, date of escape, etc all correlate.
 
  • #468
It is not clear whether the crosses were a sign the pair had converted to Christianity or if they belonged to the women at all. bbm *this was my gut instinct and still my thought process. This would have been reported at the same time they said the rooms were cleared out. It may have been but I don’t remember it that way. Details have updated and changed so quickly…
 
  • #469
Possibly. Paradoxical undressing is a thing, in cases of hyperthermia. But some poisons and psycho active drugs can cause a person to disrobe.

I remember the "skin burning sensation" some people with paresthesia caused by poisoning reported. This could make a person disrobe. But it usually would cause other symptoms, such as vomiting. There might be a very rapid death from cardiopulmonary collapse from a poison, but this would usually look different, I presume. Cyanide would cause instant death. Disrobing is unlikely given that these were young women, unless some factors were at play.

As you have said, advanced decomposition would mask most manners of death. ( You'd think that neighbors should smell something, though.

Some additional considerations: avitaminosis? If they, indeed, lived on energy drinks. Profound vitamin deficiency could cause both physical and mental symptoms. It is a very sad and lonely death.

I don't think that the landlord was harassing them, but it seems that every complaint was too easily discounted. They spoke about an odd man, and there was a man. And then they died.

Maybe they were afraid of the police in the context of having applied for asylum?
 
  • #470
Was Amaal a natural blonde?
The passport pics must have been taken in their native country and I'm curious if it is allowed for women to dye their hair.
I know very little about women's lives in SA.
 
  • #471
It is not clear whether the crosses were a sign the pair had converted to Christianity or if they belonged to the women at all. bbm *this was my gut instinct and still my thought process. This would have been reported at the same time they said the rooms were cleared out. It may have been but I don’t remember it that way. Details have updated and changed so quickly…

I really doubt they converted to Christianity, because to convert, you go to church, and then you get so much support from the community…you won’t be alone.

I equally doubt they were camouflaging, as one of newspapers said, because if they were in any way connected to anyone from the Saudi, they won’t run out of money for the apartment. Not even close…
 
  • #472
Was Amaal a natural blonde?
The passport pics must have been taken in their native country and I'm curious if it is allowed for women to dye their hair.
I know very little about women's lives in SA.
She was dyed blonde.
It is not allowed to show their hair to men in SA. I would assume one is allowed to attract the husband and show off wealth in the company of women.
 
  • #473
So, they had a car.
I read that only recently women in SA have been allowed to drive cars.

I wonder if the sisters took driving lessons in Australia?
And what about driving licence?

It seems the first year/s seemed normal and active (school/work/learning to drive (?)/ social interactions (boyfriend/neighbour Rita).
 
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  • #474
I really doubt they converted to Christianity, because to convert, you go to church, and then you get so much support from the community…you won’t be alone.

I equally doubt they were camouflaging, as one of newspapers said, because if they were in any way connected to anyone from the Saudi, they won’t run out of money for the apartment. Not even close…
If they were murdered, perhaps de-clothing the bodies and leaving crucifixes in the room could be an added act of disrespect given their upbringing?
 
  • #475
If they were murdered, perhaps de-clothing the bodies and leaving crucifixes in the room could be an added act of disrespect given their upbringing?
Yes.
The final insult/humiliation.

MOO
 
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  • #476
Also,
Re: not a trace of forced entry.

Experienced burglars can open ANY doors without difficulty.
Not to mention balcony doors.

The sisters could have also been targeted in sexual attack and smothered by pillows.

MOO
 
  • #477
An update by the rental agent in the ad..


Capture+_2022-08-02-21-26-47(1).png
 
  • #478
If they were murdered, perhaps de-clothing the bodies and leaving crucifixes in the room could be an added act of disrespect given their upbringing?

(I don’t know how Islamists would treat dead women, how big of a haram it is to leave young women unclothed). But - from old verses about the Caucasus war, I remember that if after death, it is found that a Muslim person was a secret convert to Christianity, it is less of apostasy and more of renegade behavior (still a difference between “no god” or “same god, different prayers”). However, a secret renegade is treated accordingly after death. No Muslim burial, maybe the body is just thrown out into the desert? As I said, it was in old times, things might be different now.

…and chances are, it was all simpler. No time, so left undressed and ran away,
 
  • #479

Rbbm.​

''Preparing The Body​

To prepare the body for burial, it must be washed (“Ghusl”) and shrouded (“Kafan”). Close same-sex family members are encouraged to give Ghusl, though in the case of spousal death the spouse may perform the washing. The body should be washed three times. If, after three washings, the body is not entirely clean, it may be washed more, though ultimately the body should be washed an odd number of times. The body should be washed in the following order: upper right side, upper left side, lower right side, lower left side. Women’s hair should be washed and braided into three braids. Once clean and prepared, the body should be covered in a white sheet.

To shroud the body, three large white sheets of inexpensive material should be laid on top of each other. The body should be placed on top of the sheets. Women should, at this point, be dressed in an ankle-length sleeveless dress and head veil. If possible, the deceased’s left hand should rest on the chest and the right hand should rest on the left hand, as in a position of prayer. The sheets should then be folded over the body, first the right side and then the left side, until all three sheets have wrapped the body. The shrouding should be secured with ropes, one tied above the head, two tied around the body, and one tied below the feet.
The body should then be transported to the mosque (“masjid”) for funeral prayers, known as “Salat al-Janazah.”
 
  • #480
Experienced burglars can open ANY doors without difficulty.
Wow, that would be a very frightening thing to believe.
 

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