Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[branmuffin]

Japanese Turning to Suicide by 'Detergent Death'

In the past year, some 300 people have committed suicide by inhaling the fumes from a cocktail of bleach and other household cleaning products. Web sites promote the method as easy and painless, but the toxic clouds have forced the evacuation of whole neighborhoods.

www.npr.org

''In the past year, some 300 people in Japan have killed themselves by deliberately mixing bleach with other household cleaners and then breathing the toxic hydrogen sulfide fumes.

BBC reporter Chris Hogg says 50 people in one month alone have killed themselves that way. The Japanese have been alarmed both by the ease of carrying out a "detergent death" and by the way the toxic gas can seep out and affect people living around the victim.''

Bleached to Death (Again)

In light of the current “Bleachgate” scandal– the peddling of a “Miracle Mineral Solution” which claims to cure intractable illnesses but basically doses users withindustrial bleach, I am partly reprising, partly revising an earlier post on the homicidal use of bleach. Why? Because apparently...

www.wired.com

DEBORAH BLUM
SCIENCE
SEP 19, 2010
''.. In fact, in the United States, household bleach is the number one cause of accidental poisonings, with more than 50,000 cases (including eight deaths) reported to poison control centers in a single year.

Certain, killers and would-be killers know this very well. This July, for instance, a Missouri man became angry with his girlfriend and mixed bleach into a pitcher of lemonade for the woman and her children. Added a little bleach to the ice cubes too. Alerted by the noxious smell, they didn't drink it. He was arrested anyway.

The same month, a (former) cook at a Denny's restaurant in Virginia put bleach into the drinks of two co-workers. Both men were sickened but survived. The bleach poisoner was, of course, arrested.

Was July just a good month for stupid poisoning attempts? Or so I wondered. After all, bleach smells awful, tastes awful (or so I assume) and would send all kinds of chemical warning signals to the would-be victim. But when I did a little more research, I realized that I'd underestimated how often people actually try to poison others with bleach''

''Last year, a nurse in Texas was charged with injecting 10 dialysis center patients with bleach - and killing five of them.''

I should have kept reading! I just posted this study.

 

[Arboreal]

The Sydney Daily Telegraph (a Murdoch "shock-horror" rag of questionable journalistic quality, IMHO) has reported that police believe that Asra and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli’s died as a result of suicide and, according to the DT, the police believe the sisters had a "suicide pact". Quite how police know the sisters entered into a pact, unless they recovered a suicide note, is not stated. At best the pact idea is an educated guess. The DT article is behind a paywall, so I cant provide the text at this time.
The DT report has been breathlessly re-published in other Murdoch titles, all behind paywalls. The DT claims have been re-published, in part, on Sky "News" (another Murdoch media outlet). Just before 18:00 on 03 august, another Murdoch internet "news" site - news.com.au - carried a truncated version of the DT report saying NSW police had "adopted" the suicide theory. The Murdoch report was repeated in the DM, here (late on 03 August) as well as TV Channel 7.
Then on 04 August, The Australian, another Murdoch "news" site and paper (allegedly of slightly better quality) carried this report that I have edited it and reworded it so as to comply with copyright, but have highlighted the salient, but purported, facts:

Sisters’ deaths ‘a suicide tragedy’
RHIANNON DOWN
4 August 2022

Two Saudi sisters whose severely decomposed bodies lay undiscovered ... for as long as six weeks may have died in a suicide pact.

It’s speculated the sisters planned their deaths in a “tragic suicide” after police reportedly found bottles of chemicals and other substances beside their bodies.

[Arboreal comment: "It's speculated" - by whom? Police? The Australian? A bloke in a pub? Moreover, the sentence is poorly written. The way it reads is that the sisters' [speculated] suicide occurred AFTER police found various substances. In fact, it is the other way round. It should have been written as: Police are reported to have found bottles of chemicals and other substances beside the sisters' bodies. This had led to speculation [by whom?] that the sisters' committed suicide.]

The remains of the ... sisters who appear to have no known social media presence, few friends and whose work history remains largely unknown, were discovered on June 7 during a welfare check ....

There was no sign of a break in or forced entry at their apartment ... the sisters were found in separate bedrooms with no signs of injury, police said.

[Arboreal comment: Many reports state the sisters were naked. But the DM says the bodies were fully clothed.]

Police said they were treating the deaths as suspicious as the cause of death could not be established and the circumstances were “unusual”.

[Arboreal comment: Standard police approach.]

The DT reported that Interim toxicology results showed traces of the chemicals in the women’s bodies but further testing by specialist pathology labs is required before an exact cause of death can be determined.

Police earlier said due to the advanced decomposition of their bodies, obtaining toxicology results was “problematic”.

 

[Arboreal]

The news.com.au site carried what appears to be the DT report,but under the headline: "New details emerge about the living situation of Saudi sisters weeks before their deaths". The new details are:

• Police reportedly believe the sisters entered into a suicide pact;
• The Daily Telegraph reports bottles of chemicals and other substances found beside the sisters' bodies;
• Interim toxicology reports have shown traces of the substances in the women’s bodies;
• “There’s no indication of anyone else being in the unit,” a police source told the DT;
• “It really does appear to be a tragic suicide.”
• However the exact cause of death for each woman has yet to be determined.

The Channel 7 story, referred to in my earlier post, carried this additional piece of information:

• Bank records showed funds were drying up, police told The Telegraph.

 

[Arboreal]

Some folks here have speculated that the Alsehli sisters were prompted to suicide because their claim for asylum or refugee status had been rejected. This, it seems to me, is speculation. The Guardian carried this:
Guardian Australia has confirmed Asra Abdullah Alsehli, 24, and Amaal Abdullah Alsehli, 23, were asylum seekers: each had an active claim for asylum ongoing with the Department of Home Affairs and had engaged with settlement services providers in Sydney. The nature of their claim for asylum – their basis for seeking protection – is not known.

 

[Arboreal]

There's lots of people not on Websleuths that think we are the morbid curiosity crew to spend so much time reading about terrible murders, heartbreaking disappearances and mysterious deaths. We just channel the curiosity in different ways.

What I find interesting here is sifting the information available and seeing what cane be deduced or inferred nd that involves also making judgements about the credibility of the information and the reliability of the source. A lot of the information in the press is utter rubbish and so one has to be on one's guard against it. But there are often useful pieces of information.

 

[AgathonM]

quick question, aren't there any pictures of their apartment / unit/ flat?

 

[Arboreal]

If you have a mind to, almost anything can be used to end one's life and what can be used is determined by imagination, what you might have seen in the past and what funds and materials you have access to. Hence, the use of detergent and other chemicals to make a toxic cloud. And using bleach to harm people is now uncommon. See dotr's excellent post #575, above.
The Japanese seem to lead the way in finding innovative ways<modsnip>. There is suicide by charcoal burning and hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg gas). See this WIRED report.
Using bleach in a suicide is also known, particularly amongst women attempting to escape oppressive, abusive families and religions. There is the infamous case of Shafilea Iftikhar Ahmed, a Muslim British-Pakistani girl who, in 2003, who was murdered by her parents in a suspected honour killing at the age of 17, due to their belief that she had become too Westernised. For a studey of honour killings in the UK, see this paper.
During a trip to Pakistan earlier in 2003, Ahmed had swallowed bleach in what was reported to be a suicide attempt.
Arboreal comment:
The discovery of bleach and "other chemicals" near the bodies of the Alsehli sisters is highly suggestive of death through ingestion of bleach (and possibly other chemicals).
News reports saying traces of these chemicals were discovered in the bodies of the sisters supports the conjecture that ingestion of bleach was the cause of death. Toxicology tests will, hopefully confirm this.

 

[AgathonM]

If you have a mind to, almost anything can be used to end one's life and what can be used is determined by imagination, what you might have seen in the past and what funds and materials you have access to. Hence, the use of detergent and other chemicals to make a toxic cloud. And using bleach to harm people is now uncommon. See dotr's excellent post #575, above.
The Japanese seem to lead the way in finding innovative ways <modsnip>. There is suicide by charcoal burning and hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg gas). See this WIRED report.
Using bleach in a suicide is also known, particularly amongst women attempting to escape oppressive, abusive families and religions. There is the infamous case of Shafilea Iftikhar Ahmed, a Muslim British-Pakistani girl who, in 2003, who was murdered by her parents in a suspected honour killing at the age of 17, due to their belief that she had become too Westernised. For a studey of honour killings in the UK, see this paper.
During a trip to Pakistan earlier in 2003, Ahmed had swallowed bleach in what was reported to be a suicide attempt.
Arboreal comment:
The discovery of bleach and "other chemicals" near the bodies of the Alsehli sisters is highly suggestive of death through ingestion of bleach (and possibly other chemicals).
News reports saying traces of these chemicals were discovered in the bodies of the sisters supports the conjecture that ingestion of bleach was the cause of death. Toxicology tests will, hopefully confirm this.

I believe they were murdered

 

[Arboreal]

Asra and Amaal Alsehli: Suicide, murder suicide or murder?
News reports have not mentioned a suicide note or information taken from phones or PCs that might suggest an intent to suicide. Police may have such information but have not released it. we will need to wait and see.
The murder (and by that honour killing) conjecture seems discounted by police and also not strongly supported by publicly available information:
- no forced entry to unit
- no indication that anyone apart from the sisters was present in the unit;
- no injuries on the body or other signs of violence.
Against this, there are reports that the sisters were fearful and afraid, they had reported tampering with their food delivery and a suspicious person lurking, and the elder sister had taken out but then dropped an AVO against a young man. This state of affairs seems to have developed in the past couple of years, since moving to the unit, reportedly in about 2020.
We have then witness reports as to the sisters demeanour and actions vs the physical evidence.
Sometimes two people in a close relationship develop shared beliefs, including psychosis and other mental disorders. It is called Folie à deux, which is defined as an identical or similar mental disorder affecting two or more individuals, usually the members of a close family. The individuals form a mutually dependent dyad, and one can't live without the other.
It is a conjecture, but that may have been happening here. If so, then the preponderance of information points away from an honour killing towards a joint suicide, which can include a suicide pact, or a murder suicide.
Unless there is some note or perhaps use of a phone to show one sister died after the other, it may be impossible to determine with certainty whether the Alsehli sisters' death should be considered a joint suicide (or suicide pact) or a murder suicide. It is unclear whether police or journalists are using the term "pact" to refer to the sisters' death. If it is the police, it may be conjecture; or it may be the police hve additional information not yet released.
Publicly, at least, there is little information about the dynamics in the Alsehli sisters' relationship. A person who allegedly knew them well, Rita, with whom they first lived in Fairfield when they first settled in Sydney, appears not to have been quizzed on this point by journalists.
There is so much in this tragedy that, in terms of public information, is not clear. For instance, were there really crucifixes found in the unit? Who put them there? Were they associated with the sisters? Were the sisters found naked or clothed? If naked, this may be significant. For instance, in Saudi society, female nakedness is considered highly offensive. So, it may be one last way of telling their family that they rejected them and their values and religion. Sometimes suicide represents a form of freedom to the person. Rather than being and act of desperation it is an act of self-determination and assertion of autonomy, choice and liberty. In some, it is a way of escape. I suspect in this case none of that is so. But I am not sure what it might be. My hunch is that given the purported method, drinking bleach, which is an awful way to die, is a sign of despair.

 

[Arboreal]

I believe they were murdered

Why do you believe that?

 

[Arboreal]

quick question, aren't there any pictures of their apartment / unit/ flat?

Here and here.

 

[Charlot123]

Um... Who is reviewing suicide methods?? Who could say what is and isn't painless?! I can't believe that made me laugh.

I doubt very much that mixing bleach with detergent and inhaling the vapour would be painless. It would probably make the eyes, nose, throat burn. Blisters, coughing up blood, vomiting. However it could also probably cause loss of consciousness before the person gets to fresh air. Especially if they're under the influence of other things or in an enclosed space.

From what I read there was apparently bleach all over the floors and something about a lot of "fluids". Maybe I misunderstood?

No matter what, if it was suicide it's very tragic. Their lives were worth more than $5000.

Of course it is painful. About the groups, I suspect, hopeless people go there, and the mods are simply obsessed with death. But my question was different - there should be more than a “thumbprint” of the girls online. People don’t exist in a vacuum.

 

[AgathonM]

Here and here.

Thanks man, also I believe they didn't commit a double suicide for two reasons. First the two sister have no reason that we know of to commit double suicide. We know they had money since they lived in an expensive unit and drove a BMW. We know they were not lonely because they had each other. The second reason is because there was no evidence that they decided to commit double suicide and even if they did, in most suicide cases they leave a note saying why they did it, and yet the two sisters didn't. I believe they were murdered because they fled Saudi Arabia most likely because they refused to live by the rules there and decided to live abroad. An indication of that is shown in one of the girl's hair. You can see clearly that it was dyed in yellow and that is not her hair's real color. The fact that she dyed her hair shows that she didn't wear a hijab which in some families in Saudi Arabia is forbidden. There was some cases before where girls were killed because they removed their hijab so my theory is not entirely impossible, it is however far fetched. The other girl was probably killed because she saw the murder. Most likely someone which she already knows from Saudi Arabia. My theory is that person left the country to go after them but waited to kill them for some time so it wouldn't appear suspicious and so he/she could get more info about their style of living. Again my theory is very far fetched but not entirely impossible.

 

[AgathonM]

Here and here.

Also have you noticed that there are no fire alarms attached to the ceilings so there is the probability that they were killed by a high concertation of carbon monoxide gas which can be easily made at home (there was a case where a man killed his wife with that method) and the chemicals found near their bodies was only to distract the police.

 

[Charlot123]

indeed not, even just an average bumbling fool murderer might manage to put gloves on or avoid touching surfaces or … maybe they laid the girls on their beds, put crosses for them, had a really good clean up with a ton of bleach and walked out. They would not be to know the cctv wouldn’t capture them or be erased so they probably covered their face / head. Motorcycle helmet maybe ? Look like a delivery person ?

Or, a strange person the girls were speaking about was, in fact, scouting the position of cctv cameras? Back exits? Ways to enter the balcony that was corner and above the burger shop?

 

[ForensicToxicologist]

Thanks man, also I believe they didn't commit a double suicide for two reasons. First the two sister have no reason that we know of to commit double suicide. We know they had money since they lived in an expensive unit and drove a BMW. We know they were not lonely because they had each other. The second reason is because there was no evidence that they decided to commit double suicide and even if they did, in most suicide cases they leave a note saying why they did it, and yet the two sisters didn't. I believe they were murdered because they fled Saudi Arabia most likely because they refused to live by the rules there and decided to live abroad. An indication of that is shown in one of the girl's hair. You can see clearly that it was dyed in yellow and that is not her hair's real color. The fact that she dyed her hair shows that she didn't wear a hijab which in some families in Saudi Arabia is forbidden. There was some cases before where girls were killed because they removed their hijab so my theory is not entirely impossible, it is however far fetched. The other girl was probably killed because she saw the murder. Most likely someone which she already knows from Saudi Arabia. My theory is that person left the country to go after them but waited to kill them for some time so it wouldn't appear suspicious and so he/she could get more info about their style of living. Again my theory is very far fetched but not entirely impossible.

Respectfully, they had plenty of reasons to commit suicide. Covid and 2020 were awful to even the most stable people. We haven’t heard of them having a current job, they were facing eviction, had plenty of past trauma, were likely running out of time with their bridging visas, etc. Even typing that I feel overwhelmed for them.
2. They didn’t appear to currently have any significant money. Sources stated their financials had “dried up” and they were 10 weeks behind on rent even before their deaths. I’d be interested to know about car payments. Even if they were behind, if the car was worth more than they owed, which is likely in the current market, it could be sold and used to pay off debts including the car itself. Owing payments could be a barrier in selling it for them.
3. They likely were somewhat lonely. Being in a foreign country with only one other person by your side who understands you is very isolating. We’ve heard nothing about/from any friends. A former landlord is a far cry from a friend or support system. Also, people can be around a huge crowd with a million “friends” and still feel extremely alone.
4. Amaal’s hair is not an indicator of anything for me. There are other posts here stating Saudi women often receive luxurious beauty treatments and can show it off among other women and their spouse. They just have to cover up in religious dress in public.
5. The note. I thought about this, but who would they leave it for? A family they don’t speak to and may be shunned from? Friends they don’t have? A job that is no longer in place? I can see them thinking “what’s the point”.

As someone who experiences depression, even the most basic tasks like getting the mail can be overwhelming and unbearable for me at times. I have a $850 check from two years ago that isn’t cashed simply because I couldn’t force myself to get to the bank for 6 months after the death of my mother. Mental illness is awful and different for all who experience it. I’m not necessarily convinced the sisters committed suicide, but I think we should be cautious discounting it based on the reasons you stated.

 

[AgathonM]

Respectfully, they had plenty of reasons to commit suicide. Covid and 2020 were awful to even the most stable people. We haven’t heard of them having a current job, they were facing eviction, had plenty of past trauma, were likely running out of time with their bridging visas, etc. Even typing that I feel overwhelmed for them.
2. They didn’t appear to currently have any significant money. Sources stated their financials had “dried up” and they were 10 weeks behind on rent even before their deaths. I’d be interested to know about car payments. Even if they were behind, if the car was worth more than they owed, which is likely in the current market, it could be sold and used to pay off debts including the car itself. Owing payments could be a barrier in selling it for them.
3. They likely were somewhat lonely. Being in a foreign country with only one other person by your side who understands you is very isolating. We’ve heard nothing about/from any friends. A former landlord is a far cry from a friend or support system. Also, people can be around a huge crowd with a million “friends” and still feel extremely alone.
4. Amaal’s hair is not an indicator of anything for me. There are other posts here stating Saudi women often receive luxurious beauty treatments and can show it off among other women and their spouse. They just have to cover up in religious dress in public.
5. The note. I thought about this, but who would they leave it for? A family they don’t speak to and may be shunned from? Friends they don’t have? A job that is no longer in place? I can see them thinking “what’s the point”.

As someone who experiences depression, even the most basic tasks like getting the mail can be overwhelming and unbearable for me at times. I have a $850 check from two years ago that isn’t cashed simply because I couldn’t force myself to get to the bank for 6 months after the death of my mother. Mental illness is awful and different for all who experience it. I’m not necessarily convinced the sisters committed suicide, but I think we should be cautious discounting it based on the reasons you stated.

First of all I am sorry for your loss, second thank you for the extra info. Also most sources said that they were self employed and earned money which they can afford a good looking apartment with. So in my opinion, if they happen to commit double suicide, which rarely occurs, it would certainty not be for financial reasons. your opinion about the note is quite convincing though so I thank you for the extra enlightenment. About my hair theory it is base mostly on the fact that they were unmarried and didn't talk to their families for a while so she had no one to show the hair too except the public. I am not ruling out that it could be double suicide, but I am trying to put a possibility among the other ones.

 

[ForensicToxicologist]

First of all I am sorry for your loss, second thank you for the extra info. Also most sources said that they were self employed and earned money which they can afford a good looking apartment with. So in my opinion, if they happen to commit double suicide, which rarely occurs, it would certainty not be for financial reasons. your opinion about the note is quite convincing though so I thank you for the extra enlightenment. About my hair theory it is base mostly on the fact that they were unmarried and didn't talk to their families for a while so she had no one to show the hair too except the public. I am not ruling out that it could be double suicide, but I am trying to put a possibility among the other ones.

I’m with you about trying to look at all possible options. I’m honestly torn between suicide and foul play. I fully respect your opinions and appreciate you putting so much thought into sharing with us. I truly hope I didn’t come off as “attacking” your thinking, my brain just started rolling at the theories and I had to get it all out!

ETA: here’s a link to one article referring to what I said about their current financials. Other sources repeated the same quote.

Tragic twist in case of Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney unit

Despite several strange turns coming to light, little remains known about the sisters - but police have a leading theory.

7news.com.au

 

[Charlot123]

Here's an interesting health article regarding the issue of 'detergent deaths' in Japan in the early 2000s. We haven't really heard whether the sisters had computers to find out what their search history was. If they didn't have a computer but had access to one where they worked it would be interesting to look at the search history at the work site.

Like you I thought that ingesting bleach would be a hideously painful death but it doesn't seem like it would be according to the link. Also, using large amounts of bleach actually anesthetizes your nasal passages, called olfactory nerve paralysis. It can also take on a sweeter smell in huge quantities.

“Detergent suicide” by adolescent as instructed by internet: A case report

OA Text is an independent open-access scientific publisher showcases innovative research and ideas aimed at improving health by linking research and practice to the benefit of society.

www.oatext.com

As always, very sorry that in the context of the Japanese girl being a straight A student, her mental disarray was missed. To me, the poor child looks as is she had Asperger’s/borderline traits (there might be an overlap); it is so sad because a good therapist might have been enough to save her. As it often happens, a brilliant female’s life is lost. (( (Parents! A grades do not mean your child is happy! Loneliness kills teenagers!).

However, H2S, hydrogen sulfide (yes! Car battery! I smelled it once) is a nasty-smelling gas and I can’t imagine it not leaking out of the apartment. Tenants would have smelled it. It is very dangerous.

 

[MissUnderstood]

I can’t stick to a theory on this one!! If suicide why go to seperate rooms? I would be together with the one I’m willing to end my life with. But if foul play, why seperate rooms? Did one not hear the other being killed and slept through it? Moo