Australia- Two sisters in their 20s found dead inside Sydney unit had been there lengthy time, Suspicious deaths, June 2022

[websleuth1111]

Respectfully,

1) i think they were confused about everything.

I don’t want to negate a witness’ story because I firmly believe in freedom of sexual choice. I wonder if the girls got attracted to “girls-only” sign?

To me, it seems they were trying to find a niche, a support group, maybe went to a church (crosses), maybe to an LGBTQ group, tried to have a male friend but he crossed boundaries…to me, so far, the evidence of the lady in a gas station (who said they did not initiate conversations, unless spoken to), is the most reliable report.

Forget that they are from SA. Imagine you see our very young adult of 18, who is super anxious and tooth and nail, tries to be friendly? Not emanating the “friendship vibes”? Probably, we all would think, social anxiety? Maybe this is what everyone knowing them saw? If this is the case, I feel horribly sorry for the girls. It was hard of them to make a step. One wonders if they, too, eventually, died of loneliness, feeling that no one cared?

They had each other. if you have your sister you don't need a friend in the world. A sister fills this space if you are close. No one gets you like your sister when you are close.

 

[Aluev]

-Bleach? The first thought that comes to mind is cleaning when I think of the word bleach! I would not choose to ingest or inhale bleach. There are much nicer ways to go. Being female, I would expect prescription medication as a first-line approach. Not only would bleach be difficult, but you would also likely survive as you probably could not handle the discomfort that the bleach would cause and would probably stop before having the required amount due to pain/discomfort. You also would not want to watch or hear your sister suffer. This makes absolutely no sense to me that they would actively choose bleach. I think bleach has been used to clean up or mask a crime.
(...)
Maybe their clothes were removed and disposed of to ensure no DNA or evidence was left on them. Maybe they were stripped after they died to make sure nothing was left behind. Maybe bleach was poured all over them to prepare to mask the future smell.

Exactly what I was thinking!

 

[Charlot123]

(Well, I know people who thought of dying by ingesting bleach, so it happens).

Question unrelated to manner of death.

Imagine they were scared, and maybe, for a reason. The balcony is easily accessible, the whole house is flimsy.

What are the rules re installing cameras on balconies of rented apartments? At doors? I know they could install an indoor camera, and maybe, even concealed one. Any evidence of any cameras inside the apartment, or on the balcony, installed by the sisters?

 

[dotr]

A woman i used to know, had a husband who enjoyed going out on the apartment balcony each and every morning for ''fresh air''.
As it turned out, all along he had been going out there with a mirror and using it to spy on the couple in the unit below them as they got dressed for work....
Just sayin' fwiw.

 

[bfew]

The balcony is easily accessible, the whole house is flimsy.

What are the rules re installing cameras on balconies of rented apartments? At doors? I know they could install an indoor camera, and maybe, even concealed one. Any evidence of any cameras inside the apartment, or on the balcony, installed by the sisters?

Or additional locks or bolts, or internet enabled movement detectors on the doors and windows to detect windows and doors being opened and closed and log them in the cloud when it happened, along with activating indoor smart cameras to record what was happening around windows and doors and send it immediately up to the cloud for retrieval up to a month later, and to alert the customer on their various smart devices (watch, mobile, tablet, laptop, computer) of the incidents and send screenshots of what is going on in the unit.

 

[bfew]

A woman i used to know, had a husband who enjoyed going out on the apartment balcony each and every morning for ''fresh air''.
As it turned out, all along he had been going out there with a mirror and using it to spy on the couple in the unit below them as they got dressed for work....

Then there's probably military/intel grade very small drones that can be used to spy on people, possibly used to detect whether people are asleep yet, and might be hard to see being deployed during the dead of night.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

My understanding is that fire alarms do not detect carbon monoxide. And I had not noticed that. I'm a little surprised as fire alarms are mandatory in all new buildings in NSW.
We did canvass the carbon monoxide theory a while back. Unflued gas heaters can produce it; as can burning charcoal / coal indoors in little heaters. This is one way people produce CO2 in Japan. However, the CO2 theory has not been supported by comments in the press about the necessary apparatus being present and the apparent absence of a gas heater in the unit.

No, they don’t. Fire alarms work differently depending on brands and method but most detect fire by heat and / or smoke particles. If they say they detect carbon monoxide also, that maybe true but is misleading as carbon monoxide sits low, being a heavier gas than air, so need to be placed at the opposite height than a fire / smoke detector.

 

[dotr]

Then there's probably military/intel grade very small drones that can be used to spy on people, possibly used to detect whether people are asleep yet, and might be hard to see being deployed during the dead of night.

2022

[UNCOVERING!] How to Tell if a Drone is Watching You at Night?

5 ways of how to tell if a drone is watching you at night. Read the article and make sure your privacy isn't compromised by spying drones.

flythatdrone.com

''The threat to privacy is increasing with the decreasing prices of drones. They can carry a high-quality camera that can easily violate your privacy, especially at night without you even knowing about it. A drone with a good quality digital camera can zoom in on your lawn or window from far away and take snapshots. It doesn’t even have to get near your private property.
This makes drones extremely dangerous for people who value their privacy or want to protect their commercial interests from things like corporate espionage.''

''Most commercial drones cannot see inside your house with their normal cameras. However, there is a special class of drones called thermal drones that can see through walls by using their night vision cameras. But even they can only see a shadow of different heat signatures, not a clear picture.''

What does a drone look like at night?​

If a drone is hovering high over your house or property at night, it will look like a blinking star but with rapid movements in different directions. If it is flying low, you can easily spot it by its throbbing white anti-collision light or by the colorful LED lights on the landing gears of most drones.''

2021

Think a Drone Is Spying on You? Here's What to Do

Many people worry that drones will invade their privacy, though experts say the fear is greater than the actual threat.

science.howstuffworks.com

2018

''If a drone were spying on your in your home or backyard, would you even know? Not necessarily. TODAY national investigative correspondent Jeff Rossen stages a revealing demonstration to show how easily you could become a victim of a “peeping drone” – and explains what you can do about it''.

 

[Dotta]

Or additional locks or bolts, or internet enabled movement detectors on the doors and windows to detect windows and doors being opened and closed and log them in the cloud when it happened, along with activating indoor smart cameras to record what was happening around windows and doors and send it immediately up to the cloud for retrieval up to a month later, and to alert the customer on their various smart devices (watch, mobile, tablet, laptop, computer) of the incidents and send screenshots of what is going on in the unit.

Wow
How interesting!

My apartment alarm is perfect - my NEIGHBOURS haha

They see and hear everything

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

This will probably not be a popular opinion, and I hope that I am not in breach of any guidelines here.
I feel strongly that this has been an attempt to make things look like suicide.

Here's my speculations;

-As a female with a sister, there is no way I would go to bed naked, especially if planning on not waking up. The thought of being found naked for most of us would be humiliating. Plus, what if one of us had to get up? Most sisters wouldn't walk around in each other's presence naked.
If my sister or I had a pact, that would indicate they were close; if they were close, they would be in bed together with each other's comfort. You would not want your sister to go alone.

- These were mentally strong girls; to come from SA, a completely oppressive country, on their own and forge a life here takes strong minds. I don't think they would not have made it here, they would have completed their pact before making it here, and they would not go through all of this to end it all. Police are remaining tight-lipped on their visa status- I suspect if they were seeking asylum, this would be kept quiet since SA would be watching every media response; if they were seeking asylum and it was made public, this may put their family at home at risk safety-wise.

- I think if they may have been being funded by a wealthy person (as a form of charity)- I can't remember if I am confusing the case of the HK Saudi sisters or not, but I think I remember them being funded by a wealthy businessman as a form of charity. It would not be far-fetched for these girls to have funding from a charity where a wealthy person gave them x amount of funds or regular funding as charity to help them. I think this would be more likely than the family funding them.

- I don't think they would have been on good terms with their family. I imagine they would have been considered to have brought shame to their family by firstly leaving SA, but leaving their family and not fulfilling their roles as daughters culturally should. I suspect they would have been pretty much disowned and probably hiding from both their family and their country.

-The SA govt may consider the girls as an embarrassment for SA, as women are not supposed to leave home without a male guardian, let alone live an independent life abroad- it is simply not an option for women. And with the SA society considering them shameful, this would also bring shame to the family. So the SA govt/society potentially could want to set an example for them, as could the family (as a form of honour killing). This would make sense as to why they were scared, paranoid and timid. It is a whole different culture, even though it makes no sense to us and seems ridiculous.

-Bleach? The first thought that comes to mind is cleaning when I think of the word bleach! I would not choose to ingest or inhale bleach. There are much nicer ways to go. Being female, I would expect prescription medication as a first-line approach. Not only would bleach be difficult, but you would also likely survive as you probably could not handle the discomfort that the bleach would cause and would probably stop before having the required amount due to pain/discomfort. You also would not want to watch or hear your sister suffer. This makes absolutely no sense to me that they would actively choose bleach. I think bleach has been used to clean up or mask a crime.

We all know how SA work when they want someone gone or made an example for. There have been many high-profile examples of this. They have professional teams that do this work. These people are not going to force entry or leave behind clues. They would not be messy, and they could easily make a death look like a suicide. It does not take much to get keys to an apartment when it is tenanted. Property managers have spare keys that can be accessed relatively easily by the staff in the RE office, by contractors quoting work etc.

It would not be hard to ring the PM, claim to be the tenant and pretend to need something fixed, then contact the PM saying that the landlord has requested a quote for a job- in my industry, often a landlord contacts me, asks for a quote for a repair at their property, I contact the PM, tell them the landlord has requested a quote, they handover keys that we sign in and out of a key register. This scenario happens about once a week in my line of work. Albeit that would be messy in the way that you could risk being at some point identified.

Trained professionals could also have access to tools etc that locksmiths use, and I am sure could access the apartment. The balcony also looks like it would be very easy to access, especially with sliding doors.

Even if they did suicide, how are the confirmed odd happenings explained;

-The man watching their apartment- this was not their imagination, he was spoken to and gave their address as his address.
- Car keyed- (could be a random attack), however, could also be to invoke fear. May not have been random after all.

-Food tampering- what led them to suspect and report this? They would not just come to this worry for no reason. Perhaps they had noticed tampering, or food was not tasting right or packaged right. If they have died from some type of chemical-related death, I think this is important to investigate further.

-If someone had complained that their food was being poisoned and died of poisoning, I would think this is a huge coincidence. And if they had hoped to die, why would they complain about their food being tampered with?

If they were murdered by professionals, it is not going to be a messy murder.


Maybe their clothes were removed and disposed of to ensure no DNA or evidence was left on them. Maybe they were stripped after they died to make sure nothing was left behind. Maybe bleach was poured all over them to prepare to mask the future smell.
I wonder if this happened if it would show on toxicology as being in their system? (I don't know the answer to this)
Or were they stripped as ultimate humiliation to set an example for other women watching the story? Or as an honour killing?
The family didn't want their images made public to assist with the investigation. Is this because they are humiliated, or because they fear their society or govt will identify them and come for them once they know who they are.

If mum did come over, maybe she came over to try and convince them to return to SA, but was unsuccessful. Maybe the girls had to move so the family could not find them again.

I don't think these girls were desperate, they were smart and independent. They had each other and had come so far. They may have been scared for good reason.

Our country would have an interest not to name SA as a suspect in this, if they did this it could risk relations and put Australia at risk of poor relations, which could be very dangerous for national security. It would be easier and safer to make this go away quietly.

All my speculation, of course. Hopefully no guidelines broken




-

I agree with much of what you say here. I believe they have been murdered by someone 'professional enough' behaving like a cold blooded pre-meditated murderer.

What's the chances of two frightened young women being found dead in these circumstances AFTER they have complained of being watched and having their deliveries tampered with? It's such a disservice and so dismissive of LE to suggest suicide and also makes little sense. They sound like women who had been threatened to me.

Seems like the murderer(s) has come in their home with no force (maybe at gunpoint?), done what they need to do, washed everything down with bleach and gone.

No doubt the young women were struggling emotionally - who wouldn't be after all they'd been through? And scared about the future - who isn't? but they were so strong to get so far and they had assets, good education, training, jobs, and one another.

They deserve better than to be dismissed as suicides without rigorous investigation.

 

[Charlot123]

Well, right. The moment I think, “maybe it was a suicide”, I read this

#JusticeForHadil: Saudi girl allegedly fatally stabbed by brother for showing face on TikTok

Hadil's family is allegedly now trying to get her TikTok account scrubbed.

www.dailydot.com

A young girl stabbed by her brother for having a TikTok account where she’d lip-synch to some Arabic songs, showing her face. Her parents support him and slowly replace her TikTok by some holy places. Her account is @jezeel.56.
Just find and look at it, it is absolutely innocent!

And then I think, of course it is possible that these sisters were killed.

ETA: if you want to see the TikTok’s, they are now saved under @jezeel.56 hadil

 

[Dotta]

It is a lost battle against progress.
Young people using Internet see what is happening elsewhere.

MOO

 

[NeverPersonal]

Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney told acquaintance queer women ‘live in fear’ in their homeland | Sydney | The Guardian
Two Saudi sisters found dead in their beds in Sydney attended a girls-only queer event in January where they told acquaintances gay women “live in fear” in Saudi Arabia.

The Guardian understands New South Wales police are investigating whether one or both of the sisters may have feared being persecuted for their sexuality in their homeland, which they fled together in 2017 for Australia, where they made claims for asylum.

The sisters reportedly led reclusive lives, having few friends and contacts in Australia, but a woman has come forward to say she met them at a girls-only queer event earlier this year.

The woman, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the Guardian the sisters were “keeping to themselves” at the party and told her queer people faced oppression in Saudi Arabia.

“I noticed them keeping to themselves in a corner, looking shy and so I went over and started talking to them,” she said.

“They mentioned that they were from Saudi Arabia, and we talked about what it is like to be queer there. They said women live in fear of their safety and that they were grateful to be living in Australia, where they could more freely express themselves.”

The woman said she contacted police as soon as she saw a photo of the sisters in the media.

“The police were very keen to speak to me as it appears the sisters lived a very reclusive lifestyle, especially recently, and so police don’t know much about them,” she said.

She said NSW police were certain one of the sisters identified as queer.

“They did confirm to me that they knew one of the sisters was queer, but they weren’t sure about the other,” the woman said.

The woman said it was “obviously difficult” raising the issue publicly, but when she saw the news about the sisters’ deaths she felt compelled to come forward.

“We spoke about how unsafe it is for Saudi women to be openly gay and that that would put a target on their back, so I wanted to make sure that the police were aware that at least one of the sisters were openly exploring their queer sexuality.

“This information could help find out what has happened to them.”

 

[Dotta]

Saudi sisters found dead in Sydney told acquaintance queer women ‘live in fear’ in their homeland | Sydney | The Guardian
Two Saudi sisters found dead in their beds in Sydney attended a girls-only queer event in January where they told acquaintances gay women “live in fear” in Saudi Arabia.

The Guardian understands New South Wales police are investigating whether one or both of the sisters may have feared being persecuted for their sexuality in their homeland, which they fled together in 2017 for Australia, where they made claims for asylum.

The sisters reportedly led reclusive lives, having few friends and contacts in Australia, but a woman has come forward to say she met them at a girls-only queer event earlier this year.

The woman, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told the Guardian the sisters were “keeping to themselves” at the party and told her queer people faced oppression in Saudi Arabia.

“I noticed them keeping to themselves in a corner, looking shy and so I went over and started talking to them,” she said.

“They mentioned that they were from Saudi Arabia, and we talked about what it is like to be queer there. They said women live in fear of their safety and that they were grateful to be living in Australia, where they could more freely express themselves.”

The woman said she contacted police as soon as she saw a photo of the sisters in the media.

“The police were very keen to speak to me as it appears the sisters lived a very reclusive lifestyle, especially recently, and so police don’t know much about them,” she said.

She said NSW police were certain one of the sisters identified as queer.

“They did confirm to me that they knew one of the sisters was queer, but they weren’t sure about the other,” the woman said.

The woman said it was “obviously difficult” raising the issue publicly, but when she saw the news about the sisters’ deaths she felt compelled to come forward.

“We spoke about how unsafe it is for Saudi women to be openly gay and that that would put a target on their back, so I wanted to make sure that the police were aware that at least one of the sisters were openly exploring their queer sexuality.

“This information could help find out what has happened to them.”

Hmmm...

There is a continuous barrage of info about these poor girls, often contradictory, as if disinformation is the aim.

MOO

 

[K_i_w_i]

IMO it wasn't a suicide. I agree with others that they would have been together if it was suicide and not in separate rooms.

Their unit was on the first floor. It wouldn't be too difficult to gain access to the balcony and access the unit that way.

Apartment Listing

 

[Arboreal]

No, they don’t. Fire alarms work differently depending on brands and method but most detect fire by heat and / or smoke particles. If they say they detect carbon monoxide also, that maybe true but is misleading as carbon monoxide sits low, being a heavier gas than air, so need to be placed at the opposite height than a fire / smoke detector.

Thanks for the information, Observe, which is really helpful. It is really important just for one's own home to know the limitations of fire alarms alarms. I have a CO2 detector, which I have to say has been an excellent investment but am now motivated to look at a CO detector.

 

[Arboreal]

Respectfully,

1) i think they were confused about everything.

I don’t want to negate a witness’ story because I firmly believe in freedom of sexual choice. I wonder if the girls got attracted to “girls-only” sign?

To me, it seems they were trying to find a niche, a support group, maybe went to a church (crosses), maybe to an LGBTQ group, tried to have a male friend but he crossed boundaries…to me, so far, the evidence of the lady in a gas station (who said they did not initiate conversations, unless spoken to), is the most reliable report.

Forget that they are from SA. Imagine you see our very young adult of 18, who is super anxious and tooth and nail, tries to be friendly? Not emanating the “friendship vibes”? Probably, we all would think, social anxiety? Maybe this is what everyone knowing them saw? If this is the case, I feel horribly sorry for the girls. It was hard of them to make a step. One wonders if they, too, eventually, died of loneliness, feeling that no one cared?

Hi Charlot123
Your observations are really apt. Thank you. I'd been wondering what it must have been like for these two girls when they came to Australia in 2017. I remember what it was like for me when I left home at 17, after living in a small isolated rural community and how anxious and lonely I was. And I am sure it must have been many, many times worse for them.
We have a tendency to look at the objective facts - what was found, the state of the unit and so on - and downplay the human dimension: what would they have been feeling?, what was their world view? and so on. You caught that. Tak!

 

[whiterhino]

IMO it wasn't a suicide. I agree with others that they would have been together if it was suicide and not in separate rooms.

Their unit was on the first floor. It wouldn't be too difficult to gain access to the balcony and access the unit that way.

Apartment Listing

View attachment 357850

It looks like such a high traffic area though. Wouldn't someone be spotted easily? If this is what happened, I'm guessing the perpetrator would have to be in good shape. Possibly also into "parkour" bc IDK how anyone could launch themselves up there?

 

[UnDiluted7]

I honestly still feel like no tangible evidence has been produced to suggest foul play or murder.

There has been a lot of speculation in here, plenty of "I would have committed suicide this way" or "I wouldn't do it like that" but not one piece of concrete evidence that says to me this is anything other than tragic misadventure or suicide.

 

[bfew]

It looks like such a high traffic area though. Wouldn't someone be spotted easily?

Maybe temporarily park a high commercial vehicle in front of building to provide some degree of cover from what is going on behind it. We've probably all seen this done in movies before by the pros.

But getting in via the balcony would be at high risk of being seen. Given how many multi-storey appartments there are around there, and all the associated foot-traffic 24/7, let alone the road traffic from it being on a street corner and a very busy main road.

Edit: And the BP across the road that is open 24/7