Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #13

[sosocurious]

I apologies for having posted that article then not paraphrasing.
On grandson duties and got called away.

 

[spiritualdreaming]

William Tyrell is still missing- we need to keep circulating his little face -
http://showandtellonline.com.au/wha...is-pictures-and-lets-get-this-little-boy-home

That article is so beautifully written, brought a tear to my eye [emoji26]

 

[Adrianna]

That article is so beautifully written, brought a tear to my eye [emoji26]

Oh yes i so agree. As mothers it just tugs so much.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

I haven't read the article, but the judge they are referring to, is it the judge from the recent bail application, or a judge from a previous time - i.e. when it was claimed the trial didn't go ahead to protect the girls from more trauma?

I have bought a copy of the Australian and, having read the article on paper, I THINK all of the comments are from the judge in an earlier case. This is because the article talks about information gleaned from court documents (as opposed to what was heard at the bail application). Its very difficult to know though because the article is ambiguous.

That would also make sense of the comment about the witness being "obsessive, compulsive and bizarre" because the judge could be referrig to his perceptions of the way she gave evidence.

 

[Kyja]

After reading the judges comments regarding the witness being " obsessive compulsive and bizarre" I can't help but wonder what she (the witness) said exactly. That's quite a statement to make about a witness. I'd also love to know who else she has "accused" of similar crimes in the past.
One can only imagine what she's been subjected too having a brother like that, even just knowing what he's done would be horrendous. Does anyone know of any other siblings in that family?

 

[stormyseas]

After reading the judges comments regarding the witness being " obsessive compulsive and bizarre" I can't help but wonder what she (the witness) said exactly. That's quite a statement to make about a witness. I'd also love to know who else she has "accused" of similar crimes in the past.
One can only imagine what she's been subjected too having a brother like that, even just knowing what he's done would be horrendous. Does anyone know of any other siblings in that family?

It does seem to be an extreme description of a witness, particularly considering her family history. Just because somebody suffers from a potential mental illness should not therefore imply that evidence given by such a witness is inaccurate or untrue.

IMO

 

[sosocurious]

Key Witness in case against BS has been described as obsessive cumpulsive and bizzare by a judge .

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/new...izarre-obsessive/story-e6frg6nf-1227416930616

Paraphrasing

In the case against BS it was previously found by a judge that the witness to have "propensity to make allegations against men of misconduct of various kinds.

Accusations that BS and another woman sexually abused children - these charges are unrelated to the charges he now faces. The judge said he was "reasonably satisfied" abuse did not take place.
The charges BS currently faces have been separately alleged by the witness. The judge said the witness was bizarre compulsive and obsessive.

police facts also tendered in court BS is alleged to have abused 2 sisters in 1987. Medical evidence is said to support these charges as well as the testimony of the girls allegedly involved.

 

[Makara]

It does seem to be an extreme description of a witness, particularly considering her family history. Just because somebody suffers from a potential mental illness should not therefore imply that evidence given by such a witness is inaccurate or untrue.

IMO

I'm curious to know if that particular judge has a degree in psychology. How else does he determine if the witness is obsessive compulsive? Or was he simply being tacky and insulting by referring to her as compulsive and obsessive and bizarre. I thought judges were to remain impartial and only judge the facts at hand. He sounds like a nasty piece of work IMO.

 

[stormyseas]

I'm curious to know if that particular judge has a degree in psychology. How else does he determine if the witness is obsessive compulsive? Or was he simply being tacky and a insulting by referring to her as compulsive, obsessive and bizarre. I thought judges were to remain impartial and only judge the facts at hand. He sounds like a nasty piece of work IMO.

I agree. Unless he had a registered psychologist or psychiatrist providing a formal diagnosis as an expert witness, then I would suggest it was an unprofessional and biased assumption.

IMO

 

[Makara]

Paraphrasing

In the case against BS it was previously found by a judge that the witness to have "propensity to make allegations against men of misconduct of various kinds.

Accusations that BS and another woman sexually abused children - these charges are unrelated to the charges he now faces. The judge said he was "reasonably satisfied" abuse did not take place.The charges BS currently faces have been separately alleged by the witness. The judge said the witness was bizarre compulsive and obsessive.

police facts also tendered in court BS is alleged to have abused 2 sisters in 1987. Medical evidence is said to support these charges as well as the testimony of the girls allegedly involved.

BBM: Reasonably satisfied?? Not good enough IMO. Shouldn't a judge be completely satisfied with his judgement? Queue Ksks.

 

[they'll get you]

This still intrigues me, this happened 2 weeks after William went missing and the couple stayed in the park for 2 weeks. The cry was described as an infant...how old was the cry? Would a middle aged couple have an 'infant' unless it was a grandchild. I wonder if anything came of this.

The owner of the caravan park told Fairfax Media that a resident had called police after hearing a child crying in a cabin where a middle-aged couple from Victoria stayed from September 28 to October 9.

"They heard an infant crying and they thought it was coming from that cabin," the owner said.

"We don't have kids, [nor are there] many children in the park; they are all retired here, so it is an unusual sound," he said.

"Police came here. They wanted to have a look through even though I'd been through that cabin since. We went down because obviously there might have been a body in there or [the police] thought there could be."

The owner said he gave the address of the couple to police and "away they went".



http://www.portnews.com.au/story/2830409/william-tyrell-focus-turns-to-bonny-hills-home/

 

[sosocurious]

Police ALSO uncovered records held by the NSW FACS concerning persistent sexual abuse in the MID 1980's.

The case where the judge has said the witness is bizarre and he is reasonably satisfied abuse by BS and another woman did not occur - IMO could well be before the 1987 allegations that have medical evidence that abuse did occur.

The judge said the woman had a propensity to make allegations against men of various kinds.

Well I am not going to make any judgement on this woman until I hear the evidence.While the witness can not be named it could be presumed that her brother is a paedophile and her ex-partner is an accused paedophile.
There is medical evidence to confirm the 2 girls have been sexually abused during April and May 1987 ... just maybe there was ongoing abuse. IMO

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...h-three-children/story-e6frgczx-1227322290523

 

[sosocurious]

I'm curious to know if that particular judge has a degree in psychology. How else does he determine if the witness is obsessive compulsive? Or was he simply being tacky and insulting by referring to her as compulsive, obsessive and bizarre. I thought judges were to remain impartial and only judge the facts at hand. He sounds like a nasty piece of work IMO.

We have heard about some judges in recent years - just saying. imo

 

[Cleaver Greene]

BBM: Reasonably satisfied?? Not good enough IMO. Shouldn't a judge be completely satisfied with his judgement? Queue Ksks.

In criminal cases the standard of proof is beyond reasonable doubt. However, in civil cases the standard of proof is on the balance of probabilities.

The judge's comment about the alleged abuse couldn't have been in a criminal trial. My guess is that it was a Family Court custody matter where the judge has to make decisions based on all the evidence. If a party makes allegations about another party, the judge would have to assess which version he believes for each allegation.

The judge also has to make findings on credibility, so it is not just a factual finding, but the comments by the judge do seem a bit extreme.

We all need to remember though that we don't know what the judge actually said. We are just relying on a journalist's interpretation and the comments could have been taken completely out of context.

 

[msadventure]

Mr O'Brien said the statements about his client allegedly causing horrific injuries to the girls - which are from a court hearing in the late 1980s - were made by the victims after 'tutoring' or 'coaching' by their mother and other adults.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...am-Tyrrell-related-child-rapist-murderer.html

I am not aware of the procedure that occurs when victims are examined by professionals at either a hospital or an abuse centre, but surely, the victims would be asked by counsellors 'who did these bad things to you?' in a way that is NOT prompted. Surely it's all noted - despite the 'so called tutoring or coaching by the mother etc'.

 

[sosocurious]

I am not aware of the procedure that occurs when victims are examined by professionals at either a hospital or an abuse centre, but surely, the victims would be asked by counsellors 'who did these bad things to you?' in a way that is NOT prompted. Surely it's all noted - despite the 'so called tutoring or coaching by the mother etc'.

I am not aware either msadventure - but you would hope that the medical and psychological notes would be subjective, objective and detailed.

There has been discussion recently about the injuries of the victim and the healing time of injuries of sexual assault.

I came across this very brief research abstract and was surprised to learn how quickly healing occurs.
Abrasions and mild submucosal haemorrhages disappear in 3 to 4 days.
Where as marked haemorrhages persist for 11 to 15 days.

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/119/5/e1094.abstract

 

[L2L]

I understand that Facebook isn't MSM and the restrictions involved, but I hope it's alright to ask : does the bf have a Facebook page? If so, it's beyond weird! Or belongs to someone else? An uncle? If I shouldn't ask this, please let me know.

 

[Karo]

I'm curious to know if that particular judge has a degree in psychology. How else does he determine if the witness is obsessive compulsive? Or was he simply being tacky and insulting by referring to her as compulsive, obsessive and bizarre. I thought judges were to remain impartial and only judge the facts at hand. He sounds like a nasty piece of work IMO.

The judge wasn't diagnosing her.
You can be compulsive bizarre and obsessive without having a medical condition, I think he was saying she is a compulsive liar perhaps.
Being a victim of abuse doesn't automatically make someone honest.

 

[Makara]

In criminal cases the standard of proof is boyond reasonable doubt. However, in civil cased the standard of proof is on the balance of probabilities.

The judge's comment about the alleged abuse couldn't have been in a criminal trial. My guess is that it was a Family Court custody matter where the judge has to make decisions based on all the evidence. If a party makes allegations about another party, the judge would have to assess which version he believes for each allegation.

The judge also has to make findings on credibility, so it is not just a factual finding, but the comments by the judge do seem a bit extreme.

We all need to remember though that we don't know what the judge actually said. We are just relying on a journalist's interpretation and the comments could have been taken completely out of context.

My understanding of family law cases is that they are conducted 'behind closed doors' so to speak. No media is permitted into court, the related documents are not made public. Everything remains private.

 

[sosocurious]

The judge wasn't diagnosing her.
You can be compulsive bizarre and obsessive without having a medical condition, I think he was saying she is a compulsive liar perhaps.
Being a victim of abuse doesn't automatically make someone honest.

She is the witness - I don't think she is the victim. imo