Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sept 2014 - #17

[Fence Sitter]

Makara are we allowed to post the correct address for those who cant find it and stop being cryptic.

 

[sleepinoz]

Makara are we allowed to post the correct address for those who cant find it and stop being cryptic.

I'm not a mod but my guess would be NO, as it is not the POI's address. It is the address of an innocent party.

 

[Bohemian]

This may be the route:

http://www.whereis.com/directions?n...805571&elon=152.711020295&rt=shortest_notolls

Not sure if I have correct street?

Route would take William very close to 'Ghost' (aka Houston Mitchell Drive) and Long Point Roads. Also very close to the motocross/go-kart tracks and Cowarra Access Road to Cowarra Dam, that I've posted about previously. I am almost sure LE will find something (anything!) that will help them if they look at the 'triangle' formed by Bago and Burrawan Forest Roads and the Pacific and Oxley Highways; particularly the goddam dam! It's been really bugging me for some reason. Wish I could go there myself but I don't drive (only rode motorbikes in my youth, many moons ago.)

[bump]

This is the link I meant:

http://www.whereis.com/directions?n...31.468524&elon=152.711686&rt=shortest_notolls

 

[Karo]

You know, that happens more often than most people know, we are told that "children never lie about abuse" well, no they probably don't but we do know that adults do, whether the "abuse" occurred when they were children or not.
However the accusations stay and some people never are seen as innocent again.
There will also be those who say "so what? a few people with their reputation ruined but a lot of children saved"

Considering Paul Bickford was management. Considering the TV coverage. Extensive newspaper coverage. Considering the plethora of police interviews. Imagine the paranoia. It was doomed from the day 2 blokes resigned.



I have to admit. Reading about peoples thoughts on this whole situation has changed my whole mindset. I wont be volunteering for anything that involves children any more. We have young children. If the kids want sleep overs they can get stuffed. No looking after other kids when asked. Little wonder my parents never allowed it. If kids want to play over our house, there will be a second parent or no show. Ive never had a work with children card. Ive done a lot of volunteer work, never worked with kids or wanted to, never will now. As for organisations like GAPA, not with a barge pole. Being a bloke is very different to being a woman. People are paranoid and I cant say i blame them.

I must say, the fact that some kids around the corner that went for the grandfather, $$$$ as motive on sex abuse chargers because their laziness isnt working out for them hasn't helped things. Later minds were changed after a few visits to a psychologist. Mainly because the professional worked out the 2 were lying through their teeth. Its crap no one needs.

 

[crabstick]

The girl in particular who concocted the concept was turning 18. The rest the family a little older. It was the mother who took her to the psych, I would say after a recommendation before it was found what she was up to. But we diverse. Its more common than you think. Yep, Im sure there will plenty of other people ready to step forward in a volunteer capacity. Thanks, no more response, off topic.

They say children start remembering when they are 4. Maybe this is part the reason for them being targeted. William was a target for that very reason?

You know, that happens more often than most people know, we are told that "children never lie about abuse" well, no they probably don't but we do know that adults do, whether the "abuse" occurred when they were children or not.
However the accusations stay and some people never are seen as innocent again.
There will also be those who say "so what? a few people with their reputation ruined but a lot of children saved"

 

[Bohemian]

This may be the route:

http://www.whereis.com/directions?n...805571&elon=152.711020295&rt=shortest_notolls

Not sure if I have correct street?

Route would take William very close to 'Ghost' (aka Houston Mitchell Drive) and Long Point Roads. Also very close to the motocross/go-kart tracks and Cowarra Access Road to Cowarra Dam, that I've posted about previously. I am almost sure LE will find something (anything!) that will help them if they look at the 'triangle' formed by Bago and Burrawan Forest Roads and the Pacific and Oxley Highways; particularly the goddam dam! It's been really bugging me for some reason. Wish I could go there myself but I don't drive (only rode motorbikes in my youth, many moons ago.)

[bump]

This is the link I meant:

http://www.whereis.com/directions?n...31.468524&elon=152.711686&rt=shortest_notolls

This may give a better idea of the area I'm referring to:

http://www.whereis.com/directions?n...805571&elon=152.711020295&rt=shortest_notolls

 

[crabstick]

I can assure you, none of that applies where I take the kids. One bloke wandered into the grounds about a month ago. They locked the whole school down.
There are policies in place, such as no adults in the playground after school after a certain time of pick up as other after care kids are in the area.
If anything happens around the school regards crime I make mention of it to an ex-copper who is stay at home and on the P&C. As it turns out, the lock down was an intravenous off his head on meth wandering the suburb I told the ex-copper about.

Sometimes I think there is some mentally ill, paranoid so to speak, such as Thylacine7 mentioned, who do stupid things. If your not a bloke you wouldn't understand. I was lucky with my mothers group. Brilliant bunch of women, although the husbands were wary at first.

That lovely person who offered to mind the kids if your in the poop getting to pick your kids was me Wexford. That policy has now changed. How could I be so naive to think if mum couldn't make it, ring me. They just closed the tuck-shop 3 days a week.

Its all for the greater good.

BBM dont say that Crabby. It's what I do all the time and I love it. One of the things I enjoy about my job is the fact I am aware of these things and I can do something about it. It amazes me how naive people are about child protection. How many times I get asked if parents can just drop and run. Really? Where do you think paedophiles hang out? That lovely person who offers to pick up and drop your child off for you even if their own kid isnt going? Is that ok? No it's not ok. Why would they do that? I think awareness is our biggest weapon.

 

[Bohemian]

<snipped by me for clarity of response>

They say children start remembering when they are 4. Maybe this is part the reason for them being targeted. William was a target for that very reason?

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of [humans], crabby? I'm not anyone knows why but the 'person' who took William themselves.

 

[louisepiglet]

It's very different for men though, sad but true. Even as a well-known dad at my kids' child care, I've still seen funny looks from other parents and even the staff, when I'm helping my kids in the bathroom there, especially if other kids are in there.

Like crabby says, you can understand it (and even though there've been cases of women abusers, I'd say they're vastly outnumbered, so it's almost 'better safe than sorry'), but doesn't make it any easier to be looked at like that, and it's one of the main reasons there are so few men in those kind of jobs, because it's almost an assumption in some circles that they're some sort of deviant trying to get access to kids, but it's well known how valuable good male role models can be for little kids, and more male early educators could really help that.

Reminds me of that ridiculous case recently where that poor geek dad (could so easily have been me!) took a photo of himself next to a Darth Vader cut-out at a shopping centre and some mum plastered it all over Facebook and accused him of being a pedo after kids, when he was just taking a nerdy photo for his kids. That's a kinda different issue (the danger of social media!) but still shows how knee-jerk some people can be about men near kids.

I've rarely ever taken photos of my kids at their swimming lessons - only ever with permission from the staff, and got in so close as to cut out any other kids (couldn't sit back and zoom as who'd know what you actually took) - and it makes me sad to think I'll never have any photos of those milestones, for (I-don't-think-unjustified) fear of someone taking issue with it, and in such a public place with so many 'witnesses', it could easily snowball into something you could never come back from (eg the dad above will probably forever have those stories popping up if people google his name, even though if people read them properly they'd see the full story), and even accusations proven totally false can irrevocably damage a person's future (I swear I remember reading about someone who had their 'work with kids' status removed after a completely baseless accusation, even after it was proven utterly false, his reputation never recovered with some people... reminds me of 'The Hunt', with Mads Mikkelsen... upsetting story but very possible, even if the ending diluted it a bit).

You often hear in the media how many males won't help a fallen/lost child in public for fear of being accused of something untoward (many women feel that way too of course, though usually fearing some other accusation than paedophilia).

It's hard... is it an overreaction or sensible caution?

This is true. My hubby was home by himself when he heard a young girl being attacked by a dog out the front of our house. He ran out and chased the dog off but said he felt he could not touch the girl because he was a man. Luckily the female neighbour across the road also came out and comforted the girl and walked her home. My hubby said his first instinct was to pick the girl up as he would with our own children but he thought it might look bad. What a sad indictment on our society.

 

[Puggle]

I feel for guys in that respect....As it is true that they are often looked at a little more suspiciously... It's very sad... I feel for your Hubby in that situation..not a nice feeling for him at all.
Puggle xx

I was hoping someone might know a little about the process to charge/Have someone arrested for child sexual Abuse.

So Tony Jones was arrested? charged? Presented in court for First Hearing? On the 27th of September 2014. I'm still not sure which it is???

BUT ...my question... Obviously a complaint would be made to police by the Child's parents..

Then it would be investigated.... How they investigate I'm not sure???

But this process would take some time (How long???) before he is ultimately charged.

IF this was abduction perpetrated by a "Ring" ... it would be a first here in Australia.. that I know of (If anyone can find another similar - that would be great to compare - get some background)

Someone (sorry can't remember who) suggested if the person knew they were likely to be going away and doing time in prison anyway...that they may just commit such an act on impulse due to an irrational logic.

We saw evidence of this thinking in transcripts from Hillsley's psych evaluation - we he stated something along the lines that he considered raping the girl (niece) because it was what the Family were thinking may happen, so he may as well do it.. (I'll try to find the link for that one - I should have saved it...it took me long enough to find the first time)

Yeah so I'm curious... Can anyone shed any light on an approximate time frame for....Allegation/Reported Offence TO Arrest/Being charged

 

[thylacine7]

I understand how you feel stigmatised. I have felt that way my whole life, for one reason or another. I have learnt to ignore the few stares, much criticism (both in front of and behind my back) and just be me. I will not live my life in fear of 'what other people think/do/say'); to me that is no life 'lived' at all. I am a decent person who wouldn't break the law knowingly, am altruistic and rarely vindictive. If people have a problem with me; that's usually their problem, not mine (and vice-versa )

My favourite Aesop's fable (thanks Pop!) may better illustrate my point:

http://m.taleswithmorals.com/aesop-fable-the-man-the-boy-and-the-donkey.htm

Hey I've never been someone to care what people think, I think the fear (not specifically referring to me, just in general) is more the damage that can be done by what they say, and whom they tell, and the issues that can cause down the track even when there was absolutely nothing untoward going on.

 

[crabstick]

Same same, two girls got out a car in an industrial area and attacked a girl on the side the road, wrestling her to the ground, stealing her mobile phone. I knew what was going on because the number plates were covered.
I didn't do a thing because being a man attacking two girls to stop the robbery would have drawn all sorts of conclusions from industrial units near by.
They used the two girls deliberately in the attack. All I could do was park in front the car to slow it down. But the girl who was assaulted was traumatised.

This is why, even though Williams abduction might have been opportunistic. There is a mindset, a loose pre plan prior. Like where to take the child?

This is true. My hubby was home by himself when he heard a young girl being attacked by a dog out the front of our house. He ran out and chased the dog off but said he felt he could not touch the girl because he was a man. Luckily the female neighbour across the road also came out and comforted the girl and walked her home. My hubby said his first instinct was to pick the girl up as he would with our own children but he thought it might look bad. What a sad indictment on our society.

 

[Makara]

Makara are we allowed to post the correct address for those who cant find it and stop being cryptic.

No. And sleuthing the address of an innocent party needs to stop now.

 

[Bohemian]

Hey I've never been someone to care what people think, I think the fear (not specifically referring to me, just in general) is more the damage that can be done by what they say, and whom they tell, and the issues that can cause down the track even when there was absolutely nothing untoward going on.

I agree but, usually, the truth will out in the end. I am not unsympathetic to men's plight (I grew up very close to my four brothers, Dad and Pop) and I know decent men are often tarred with the same brush as those who are not so decent. As someone up the thread said; "It's a sad indictment of our society." I am not so judgemental but I've always been an exception to the rule; hence, my own stigmatisation.

 

[sosocurious]

I feel for guys in that respect....As it is true that they are often looked at a little more suspiciously... It's very sad... I feel for your Hubby in that situation..not a nice feeling for him at all.
Puggle xx

I was hoping someone might know a little about the process to charge/Have someone arrested for child sexual Abuse.

So Tony Jones was arrested? charged? Presented in court for First Hearing? On the 27th of September 2014. I'm still not sure which it is???

BUT ...my question... Obviously a complaint would be made to police by the Child's parents..

Then it would be investigated.... How they investigate I'm not sure???

But this process would take some time (How long???) before he is ultimately charged.

IF this was abduction perpetrated by a "Ring" ... it would be a first here in Australia.. that I know of (If anyone can find another similar - that would be great to compare - get some background)

Someone (sorry can't remember who) suggested if the person knew they were likely to be going away and doing time in prison anyway...that they may just commit such an act on impulse due to an irrational logic.

We saw evidence of this thinking in transcripts from Hillsley's psych evaluation - we he stated something along the lines that he considered raping the girl (niece) because it was what the Family were thinking may happen, so he may as well do it.. (I'll try to find the link for that one - I should have saved it...it took me long enough to find the first time)

Yeah so I'm curious... Can anyone shed any light on an approximate time frame for....Allegation/Reported Offence TO Arrest/Being charged

BBM
This one four months Puggle..

A 50-year-old man faced Port Macquarie Court yesterday in relation to alleged assaults against six boys between 1998 and 2012 in NSW.

The man, who was a truck driver at the time of the offences, was arrested at Port Macquarie just before 11am on Tuesday following a four-month-long operation by the Child Abuse Squad and Mid North Coast Local Area Command.

The assaults are alleged to have taken place at Tamworth, Narrabri, Moree, Penrith, Kingswood Park and Wauchope.

http://www.portnews.com.au/story/1378141/man-refused-bail-on-sexual-assault-charges/

 

[stormyseas]

http://www.portnews.com.au/story/3389337/man-charged-with-possessing-child-🤬🤬🤬🤬/?cs=257

Man charged with possessing child in Taree.

 

[catswhiskers]

I pictured a hippy type of pub the way you described it, but it does sound rather creepy.

I go to a league's club sometimes and there is a lot of cameras trained on the play room, but I wonder if that is to monitor kids who have possibly been dumped there while parents gamble? The cameras are very obvious and there are signs to say there are cameras monitoring, but come to think of it, other than in the gambling area, I don't recall seeing cameras anywhere else. I'll have to look next time we go. It makes you wonder who is watching the kids play through the CCTV.

I don't think it's uncommon for cameras to be used to monitor the playrooms like this. At one of my local pubs there are several cameras in the playroom itself, and the monitors are displayed in the dining/bar area so parents themselves can keep an eye on their kids themselves - seems like a good security measure to me.

 

[Bohemian]

I was hoping someone might know a little about the process to charge/Have someone arrested for child sexual Abuse.

So Tony Jones was arrested? charged? Presented in court for First Hearing? On the 27th of September 2014. I'm still not sure which it is???

BUT ...my question... Obviously a complaint would be made to police by the Child's parents..

Then it would be investigated.... How they investigate I'm not sure???

But this process would take some time (How long???) before he is ultimately charged.

IF this was abduction perpetrated by a "Ring" ... it would be a first here in Australia.. that I know of (If anyone can find another similar - that would be great to compare - get some background)

Someone (sorry can't remember who) suggested if the person knew they were likely to be going away and doing time in prison anyway...that they may just commit such an act on impulse due to an irrational logic.

We saw evidence of this thinking in transcripts from Hillsley's psych evaluation - we he stated something along the lines that he considered raping the girl (niece) because it was what the Family were thinking may happen, so he may as well do it.. (I'll try to find the link for that one - I should have saved it...it took me long enough to find the first time)

Yeah so I'm curious... Can anyone shed any light on an approximate time frame for....Allegation/Reported Offence TO Arrest/Being charged

All the information on AJ, charge date, bail hearing(s) and sentencing have already been posted on this forum, puggs, as far as I remember.

More generally, time elapsed between investigation, arrest, laying charges, bail hearing(s), pleading, committal hearing and trial (including adjournments) and sentencing; would vary greatly, I imagine, due to a number of factors; such as gathering statements, testing alibis, collection and testing of physical evidence, approval to refer the case to trial by the DPP, court schedules, etc. The NSW Police, DPP or Justice Department's websites may be able to offer more information. Also, the Australian Bureau of Statistics, NSW BOCSAR and the Australian Institute of Criminology keep crime statistics.

As for paedophile 'rings' where they enslave children and move them from perp to perp/place to place, I haven't heard of any here either (only sexual slavery of adults); and the only ones I have heard about involving children have been overseas; mainly in SE Asia. You might have to do some research on this one; I'd start with the Australian Institute of Criminology's publications. I think there is a Hague Convention on the (Sexual?) Exploitation of Children; maybe you could search that term.

I think the case you are talking about regarding a perp committing additional child sexual offences while awaiting trial/sentencing may have been in WA. The information, including a link to MSM, is at the beginning of this thread or toward the end of the last, I think.

Here's the link to the statement given by Hillsley you mentioned. R v Jeffrey John Hillsley [1992] Federal Court of Australia:

http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/s...ynonyms=0&query=Jeffrey AND John AND Hillsley

 

[Makara]

I feel for guys in that respect....As it is true that they are often looked at a little more suspiciously... It's very sad... I feel for your Hubby in that situation..not a nice feeling for him at all.
Puggle xx

I was hoping someone might know a little about the process to charge/Have someone arrested for child sexual Abuse.

So Tony Jones was arrested? charged? Presented in court for First Hearing? On the 27th of September 2014. I'm still not sure which it is???

BUT ...my question... Obviously a complaint would be made to police by the Child's parents..

Then it would be investigated.... How they investigate I'm not sure???

But this process would take some time (How long???) before he is ultimately charged.

IF this was abduction perpetrated by a "Ring" ... it would be a first here in Australia.. that I know of (If anyone can find another similar - that would be great to compare - get some background)

Someone (sorry can't remember who) suggested if the person knew they were likely to be going away and doing time in prison anyway...that they may just commit such an act on impulse due to an irrational logic.

We saw evidence of this thinking in transcripts from Hillsley's psych evaluation - we he stated something along the lines that he considered raping the girl (niece) because it was what the Family were thinking may happen, so he may as well do it.. (I'll try to find the link for that one - I should have saved it...it took me long enough to find the first time)

Yeah so I'm curious... Can anyone shed any light on an approximate time frame for....Allegation/Reported Offence TO Arrest/Being charged

It's not clear how long ago the allegations were made against AJ but it's been reported that he had been sexually molesting the little girl over a two year period. Upon receiving the initial complaint about the sexual abuse AJ would have been investigated by the police and the allegation put to him. AJ pleaded guilty to the charges. There would have been a court hearing (sometime in September 2014) where he was given the opportunity to plead guilty or not guilty before a magistrate. He was jailed on 27 September 2014 and was finally sentenced last week.

If AJ had pleaded not guilty, there would have been a few court mentions, then a committal hearing and then ultimately a trial. The fact that AJ pleaded guilty saved everyone the stress, time and money in having to follow through with a committal hearing and a trial, which may have stretched into years. The fact that he did plead guilty, it was all done and dusted within 12 months instead of 2-3 years.

 

[crabstick]

I don't think it's uncommon for cameras to be used to monitor the playrooms like this. At one of my local pubs there are several cameras in the playroom itself, and the monitors are displayed in the dining/bar area so parents themselves can keep an eye on their kids themselves - seems like a good security measure to me.

Cameras are for insurance purposes on the playgrounds. Some businesses are shutting playgrounds as there is too much litigation going on.