Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #36

[Bohemian]

So true, a better option... living safely with love. Re that last sentence, BBM above, it might be bio parents who do this most - but it's not unheard of with strangers (eek ones - think Eliz Smart, Natasha K, Jaycee Lee D, Begium, Ohio). Doesn't bare thinking about really. I hope nothing so sinister has happened in this situ

Even living with love, I think there would be a certain amount of suffering for William. Being torn from his loved ones not once, but twice and never being able to make contact as the perpetrator would fear arrest.

As you say, stranger abductions where the children have been kept alive for decades have happened, although mostly OS AFAIK. DCI Jubelin also spoke about this type of scenario in the presser he gave last September.

That said, many of these scenarios we’ve discussed recently would be very rare occurrences or, indeed, firsts. That does not bode well for William remaining alive. I apologise for being so frank. I come from a forensic biology background and have learnt to compartmentalise my emotions and remain dispassionate when discussing a case. That doesn’t mean that William as a little boy, taken from his grandmother’s home that morning, doesn’t affect me deeply; as I’m sure it does everyone else who follows William’s threads.

 

[iailwa]

Which brings us to ‘means’. How did the perpetrator escape detection? I suppose I’m talking about the cars FM and MSM reported as being in the vicinity. Were they there or not? Would the perpetrator have needed a car to escape, given the extensive searches of the houses in Benaroon Drive and their surrounds (1 sq km) that have been done in the past and recently?

Little W could well have been taken by foot, but we know the dog scents ended in the yard and didn't extend anywhere. It still doesn't mean it can't have happened true. The most likely scenario IMO is by car. It's interesting that a 4wd (damaged?) was seen speeding through Kendall later. If you are a stranger, accidentally coming back into town would be easy, i did it myself from the kendall forest. It's a bit obvious to speed though isn't it, or stupid? Also if you left via the culde-sac it would be an easy get away - the quickest - but you could easily damage your car. I cannot get past the pewter coloured 4wd that entered the forest around that time - but the info was pulled from the media in the first week. Why, i wonder?

 

[iailwa]

BBM.

My two cents FWIW:

The only two child kidnappings for ransom, where they were removed from their homes, that I can remember are the Graham Thorne kidnapping in 1960:

Articles - Australian Police Journal | Australian Police Journal

And of the 12 year old Gold Coast boy, earlier this year:

Police allege boy was 'kidnapped for ransom'

I vaguely remember school children and their teacher(?) being kidnapped or held against their will in Australia (maybe in southern NSW or Victoria in the 70s?) but I think that was more of a siege, with demands made so the persons responsible could escape arrest. I don’t think there was a ransom demand but I’m not sure.

So that’s two, at the most three, child kidnappings that involved a financial motive in 58 years by my reckoning. Not doing the forensic stats but commonsense tells me it seems like a fairly rare occurrence in Australia to me. That doesn’t mean it’s an impossibility or that these types of scenarios won’t become more common in the future, as it has become overseas.

Exactly - but the fact it's rare & it hasn't happened in a while, does that make it's occurrence more likely? There was no ransom note. Just pondering aloud

 

[Bohemian]

Little W could well have been taken by foot, but we know the dog scents ended in the yard and didn't extend anywhere. It still doesn't mean it can't have happened true. The most likely scenario IMO is by car. It's interesting that a 4wd (damaged?) was seen speeding through Kendall later. If you are a stranger, accidentally coming back into town would be easy, i did it myself from the kendall forest. It's a bit obvious to speed though isn't it, or stupid? Also if you left via the culde-sac it would be an easy get away - the quickest - but you could easily damage your car. I cannot get past the pewter coloured 4wd that entered the forest around that time - but the info was pulled from the media in the first week. Why, i wonder?

Yes, William may well have been carried by someone as they escaped on foot from either Benaroon Drive proper or after the right turn that leads to the forest and cemetery tracks.

I think the most likely scenario is by car. I have been thinking about this from the POV of police, prosecutors and defence lawyers.

There have been four cars described as being ‘of interest’ to the investigation in MSM. The (green?) sedan that turned into and reversed out of the neighbour’s driveway next to FGM’s former residence at around 9am. The (green-gray?) sedan and the white station wagon seen across the road earlier that morning; both reported by FM, and the (pewter?) 4WD seen speeding in Kendall streets around the time William disappeared. (Excuse me if I have the colours muddled up and please correct me if I do).

Now let’s say you arrest a suspect that doesn’t have a car that matches any of the descriptions given of cars ‘of interest’ and you go to trial. The first thing the defence lawyer will seize on is that the four cars above belong to someone else who committed the crime their client is accused of. There is reasonable doubt. Unless, of course, those four cars have been eliminated from the investigation.

I think the four cars matching the descriptions (or as close to, given known inaccuracies in witness statements) of those published in MSM were in the vicinity of Kendall that morning. Either one, or all, or none, belong to the perpetrator(s); depending on which, if any, have been eliminated from the investigation.

As @Hbayne said, a fair few posts ago now, those cars are, or were, important. In fact, DCI Jubelin stated this in response to a reporter’s question in his September presser:

(20:50) Reporter:

'What about, are the cars still of interest?'

(20:55) DCI Jubelin:

'We're still looking at the cars. From the last time we put the appeals out for the cars, we received a lot of information and that's a line of inquiry that we're following up. As I said, it is unusual for an active investigation to go into how we're approaching it but, because of the uniqueness of the investigation and the public’s interest, we prioritise our lines of inquiry.

So we'll have a person of interest and we'll focus on that person of interest, we'll focus on the cars and we've got lines of inquiry going all over the place. We've got our dedicated Strike Force but we've also got access to all other investigators across the state if we need them.'

(21:31) Reporter:

'There was a car seized, at one point, matching the description of the graphics that were put out there. Can you say that [unintelligible] been ruled out?'

(21:42) DCI Jubelin:

'I can only say it's been eliminated.'

Source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2JoQlll9AE​

 

[Bohemian]

Exactly - but the fact it's rare & it hasn't happened in a while, does that make it's occurrence more likely? There was no ransom note. Just pondering aloud

In a word; no. (Well, not as far as my tiny brain can fathom anyway )

 

[frogwell]

Which brings us to ‘means’. How did the perpetrator escape detection? I suppose I’m talking about the cars FM and MSM reported as being in the vicinity. Were they there or not? Would the perpetrator have needed a car to escape, given the extensive searches of the houses in Benaroon Drive and their surrounds (1 sq km) that have been done in the past and recently?

I think it is a good possibility that the white station wagon was there as we have seen a car matching that description, parked in roughly that spot since the abduction, also, before we saw that picture, a sleuther described a white station wagon as having been there when they visited the area after the abduction. It seems more likely to me then that a secon grey/ green sedan vehichle was there as well. The two may have looked connected but possibly weren't. I do believe it stood out to the FM as she has reported the street does not have cars parked on it which I have seen in google street view confirms what she says. The police may not have known that the station wagon belonged to a neighbor who had already accounted for their actions that day, or the police did know and found it a useful tool for ferreting out information about the 2nd vehichle. The strange thing is the idea that the police had that the station wagon that TJ had apparently been using was scrapped and then was suddenly located at a neighbors house, many questions I have of his ex wife and family friend about that. These cars seemed to be observable for a couple of hours on Benaroon Drive that morning, from the time the FM got up.

Property Report for 48 Benaroon Drive, Kendall NSW 2439

There are potentially a number of escape routes from the abduction site. Benaroon onto Batar Creek rd, Benaroon into the state forest, the end of Benaroon to a path up to a waiting car in the cemetery, through the back of neighbors properties into either state forest or possible tracks through bsurrounding bush properties onto Batar Creek rd. I have been exploring the idea of people parking and observing the family movements from the vacant bush block, with the cover of inspecting the block if someone asked why they were there. Snatching him, taking him back through the vacant bush block and behind the last house on Benaroon Drive to a 4wd vehichle that is waiting in the bush surrounded road of Benaroon Drive, but that would potentially open things up to a scent trail and fragments of material from his spiderman suit getting snagged on vegetation. I do think a 4wd and bush tracks were used in the abduction. MOO

 

[Bohemian]

I think it is a good possibility that the white station wagon was there as we have seen a car matching that description, parked in roughly that spot since the abduction, also, before we saw that picture, a sleuther described a white station wagon as having been there when they visited the area after the abduction. It seems more likely to me then that a secon grey/ green sedan vehichle was there as well. The two may have looked connected but possibly weren't. I do believe it stood out to the FM as she has reported the street does not have cars parked on it which I have seen in google street view confirms what she says. The police may not have known that the station wagon belonged to a neighbor who had already accounted for their actions that day, or the police did know and found it a useful tool for ferreting out information about the 2nd vehichle. The strange thing is the idea that the police had that the station wagon that TJ had apparently been using was scrapped and then was suddenly located at a neighbors house, many questions I have of his ex wife and family friend about that. These cars seemed to be observable for a couple of hours on Benaroon Drive that morning, from the time the FM got up.

Property Report for 48 Benaroon Drive, Kendall NSW 2439

There are potentially a number of escape routes from the abduction site. Benaroon onto Batar Creek rd, Benaroon into the state forest, the end of Benaroon to a path up to a waiting car in the cemetery, through the back of neighbors properties into either state forest or possible tracks through bsurrounding bush properties onto Batar Creek rd. I have been exploring the idea of people parking and observing the family movements from the vacant bush block, with the cover of inspecting the block if someone asked why they were there. Snatching him, taking him back through the vacant bush block and behind the last house on Benaroon Drive to a 4wd vehichle that is waiting in the bush surrounded road of Benaroon Drive, but that would potentially open things up to a scent trail and fragments of material from his spiderman suit getting snagged on vegetation. I do think a 4wd and bush tracks were used in the abduction. MOO

So somehow pre-planned, whether short or long term, but opportunistic at the same time. Could have been a random or targeted abduction. Aaaarrrggghhhh! Back to where we started . . . again.

But, then again, it throws that first (grey/green?) sedan more firmly into the mix and, as you say, the mystery 4WD.

 

[iailwa]

Yes, William may well have been carried by someone as they escaped on foot from either Benaroon Drive proper or after the right turn that leads to the forest and cemetery tracks.

I think the most likely scenario is by car. I have been thinking about this from the POV of police, prosecutors and defence lawyers.

There have been four cars described as being ‘of interest’ to the investigation in MSM. The (green?) sedan that turned into and reversed out of the neighbour’s driveway next to FGM’s former residence at around 9am. The (green-gray?) sedan and the white station wagon seen across the road earlier that morning; both reported by FM, and the (pewter?) 4WD seen speeding in Kendall streets around the time William disappeared. (Excuse me if I have the colours muddled up and please correct me if I do).

Now let’s say you arrest a suspect that doesn’t have a car that matches any of the descriptions given of cars ‘of interest’ and you go to trial. The first thing the defence lawyer will seize on is that the four cars above belong to someone else who committed the crime their client is accused of. There is reasonable doubt. Unless, of course, those four cars have been eliminated from the investigation.

I think the four cars matching the descriptions (or as close to, given known inaccuracies in witness statements) of those published in MSM were in the vicinity of Kendall that morning. Either one, or all, or none, belong to the perpetrator(s); depending on which, if any, have been eliminated from the investigation.

As @Hbayne said, a fair few posts ago now, those cars are, or were, important. In fact, DCI Jubelin stated this in response to a reporter’s question in his September presser:

(20:50) Reporter:

'What about, are the cars still of interest?'

(20:55) DCI Jubelin:

'We're still looking at the cars. From the last time we put the appeals out for the cars, we received a lot of information and that's a line of inquiry that we're following up. As I said, it is unusual for an active investigation to go into how we're approaching it but, because of the uniqueness of the investigation and the public’s interest, we prioritise our lines of inquiry.

So we'll have a person of interest and we'll focus on that person of interest, we'll focus on the cars and we've got lines of inquiry going all over the place. We've got our dedicated Strike Force but we've also got access to all other investigators across the state if we need them.'

(21:31) Reporter:

'There was a car seized, at one point, matching the description of the graphics that were put out there. Can you say that [unintelligible] been ruled out?'

(21:42) DCI Jubelin:

'I can only say it's been eliminated.'

Source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v2JoQlll9AE​

I think the cars are important but maybe they will go to trial with other more direct evidence, excluding, or including those cars - so, the defence are then unable to use that tactic? Btw the pewter 4wd wasn't AFAIK seen racing through kendall, but was seen leaving the culde-sac about 10.30. I'm not sure of the colour of the car speeding in kendall. The pewter 4wd could be their best lead and so they have kept it quiet - thus the reason for pulling it from the media v early. I hope, at least, they have some new evidence, or even evidence related to the cars seen. The green one doing a uturn sounds suss - if a child predator was driving that car, why not come back, after thinking about it? I think one of our POIs drove a very light green car, but woyuldn't it be described as such? IDK. I scratch my head in relation to the two cars parked together. FM had a frantic day, she didn't remember them till that night but her recall might be better than mine - hopefully!

 

[iailwa]

I think it is a good possibility that the white station wagon was there as we have seen a car matching that description, parked in roughly that spot since the abduction, also, before we saw that picture, a sleuther described a white station wagon as having been there when they visited the area after the abduction. It seems more likely to me then that a secon grey/ green sedan vehichle was there as well. The two may have looked connected but possibly weren't. I do believe it stood out to the FM as she has reported the street does not have cars parked on it which I have seen in google street view confirms what she says. The police may not have known that the station wagon belonged to a neighbor who had already accounted for their actions that day, or the police did know and found it a useful tool for ferreting out information about the 2nd vehichle. The strange thing is the idea that the police had that the station wagon that TJ had apparently been using was scrapped and then was suddenly located at a neighbors house, many questions I have of his ex wife and family friend about that. These cars seemed to be observable for a couple of hours on Benaroon Drive that morning, from the time the FM got up.

Property Report for 48 Benaroon Drive, Kendall NSW 2439

There are potentially a number of escape routes from the abduction site. Benaroon onto Batar Creek rd, Benaroon into the state forest, the end of Benaroon to a path up to a waiting car in the cemetery, through the back of neighbors properties into either state forest or possible tracks through bsurrounding bush properties onto Batar Creek rd. I have been exploring the idea of people parking and observing the family movements from the vacant bush block, with the cover of inspecting the block if someone asked why they were there. Snatching him, taking him back through the vacant bush block and behind the last house on Benaroon Drive to a 4wd vehichle that is waiting in the bush surrounded road of Benaroon Drive, but that would potentially open things up to a scent trail and fragments of material from his spiderman suit getting snagged on vegetation. I do think a 4wd and bush tracks were used in the abduction. MOO

great post frogwell! food for thought indeed

 

[iailwa]

great post frogwell! food for thought indeed

sorry to post my own post, but frogwell, what about the fact that both windows were open? Perhaps the 2nd car pulled up, & sat & watched, easier with the windows down. And the first car couldn't car less about an open window? just thoughts

 

[Bohemian]

I think the cars are important but maybe they will go to trial with other more direct evidence, excluding, or including those cars - so, the defence are then unable to use that tactic? Btw the pewter 4wd wasn't AFAIK seen racing through kendall, but was seen leaving the culde-sac about 10.30. I'm not sure of the colour of the car speeding in kendall. The pewter 4wd could be their best lead and so they have kept it quiet - thus the reason for pulling it from the media v early. I hope, at least, they have some new evidence, or even evidence related to the cars seen. The green one doing a uturn sounds suss - if a child predator was driving that car, why not come back, after thinking about it? I think one of our POIs drove a very light green car, but woyuldn't it be described as such? IDK. I scratch my head in relation to the two cars parked together. FM had a frantic day, she didn't remember them till that night but her recall might be better than mine - hopefully!

Well, you’d hope they have that direct evidence re inclusion/exclusion of the cars from a prosecution POV. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s not that easy. In Daniel’s case the early model light blue sedan was a fly in the ointment in the prosecution of BPC, who owned a white Pajero at the time. Not to mention the presence of Jackaway not so far from where Daniel was abducted.

Yes, I think MSM’s ‘memory holes’ (a la George Orwell’s 1984) have been the most interesting ‘facts’ (who knows anymore if what’s printed in MSM are the facts ) in William’s case to date.

I always wondered about the first sedan. If maybe the perpetrator was driving that car and thought to themselves ‘I’ll just park at x and take a look-see.’, saw their chance and snatched William; similar to BPC’s MO in Daniel’s abduction.

I can’t fault FM for not remembering and reporting the station wagon and sedan parked together until later that evening. As we both know. even the most conscientious witnesses’ recollections are notoriously unreliable in many instances and it would have been one hell of a day to live through.

 

[iailwa]

Well, you’d hope they have that direct evidence re inclusion/exclusion of the cars from a prosecution POV. Unfortunately, sometimes it’s not that easy. In Daniel’s case the early model light blue sedan was a fly in the ointment in the prosecution of BPC, who owned a white Pajero at the time. Not to mention the presence of Jackaway not so far from where Daniel was abducted.

Yes, I think MSM’s ‘memory holes’ (a la George Orwell’s 1984) have been the most interesting ‘facts’ (who knows anymore if what’s printed in MSM are the facts ) in William’s case to date.

I always wondered about the first sedan. If maybe the perpetrator was driving that car and thought to themselves ‘I’ll just park at x and take a look-see.’, saw their chance and snatched William; similar to BPC’s MO in Daniel’s abduction.

I can’t fault FM for not remembering and reporting the station wagon and sedan parked together until later that evening. As we both know. even the most conscientious witnesses’ recollections are notoriously unreliable in many instances and it would have been one hell of a day to live through.

So true. I guess it's telling what car any suspect can drive/borrow/acess, on the day. I can't fault FM either - it was a heck of a day! it was interesting what Froggy said - about one car being accounted for. Lazy day today for me obviously. sorry to clog the feed people. just so curious about these subjects, no doubt. Looking forward to more info about William

 

[purpleandgreen]

Which brings us to ‘means’. How did the perpetrator escape detection? I suppose I’m talking about the cars FM and MSM reported as being in the vicinity. Were they there or not? Would the perpetrator have needed a car to escape, given the extensive searches of the houses in Benaroon Drive and their surrounds (1 sq km) that have been done in the past and recently?

BBM I think that's an important key, Bo. I suspect jubes night know / suspect. Remember his scenario ..... over the bridge...... etc ...

IMO

 

[iailwa]

What colour would you all say this car is?

 

[Bohemian]

What colour would you all say this car is?

Metallic light moss green. A light grey-green.

 

[Bohemian]

BBM I think that's an important key, Bo. I suspect jubes night know / suspect. Remember his scenario ..... over the bridge...... etc ...

IMO

I think he knows and just needs that little bit of evidence that will satisfy the DPP. I think he’s getting closer all the time. ‘Someone in Kendall knows what happened.’ Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.

 

[iailwa]

Metallic light moss green. A light grey-green.

green-grey it is from BO, thanks BO. Can anyone else describe the colour of this car? My eyesight is fading too

 

[Josie2014]

The two cars parked with windows down aside (as I don't believe they were there) something has always gnawed away at me about the other two cars. ie car turning in neighbours drive and car leaving Benaroon Dr at 10.30 and later seen speeding through Kendall.

I can understand if one of the drivers didn't come forward, but two drivers did not come forward. In such a small population that makes me curious. GJ said at Sept '17 presser they are still looking at the cars.

These two cars were seen approximately an hour and a half apart.

'Detectives have also released details about two other cars seen in the area on the morning William wandered around the side of his grandmother's home and disappeared.
One vehicle is a green or grey sedan that drove past the Benaroon Drive house about 9am while William and his sister were riding bikes in the driveway.
Det Insp Jubelin said the car drove into the quiet cul-de-sac, did a u-turn in the neighbour's driveway and drove out of the street.
The second sighting was of a four-wheel-drive driving out of Benaroon Drive about 10.30am - when William vanished - and was later seen speeding down another Kendall street.
"The people driving these cars have not come forward to police," Detective Inspector Jubelin said.'
William Tyrrell detectives hunt for drivers 12 months after disappearance


Did the driver of the first car which drove past the children riding their bikes on the driveway and do a U-turn in the neighbours drive - come back in the white 4 wheel drive.

Did they then turn right onto Batar Creek Rd, hide their crime in the Batar Creek/Middle Brother area and speed back into town to return the w4d before it's absence was noticed.

Two cars, one driver.

 

[iailwa]

The two cars parked with windows down aside (as I don't believe they were there) something has always gnawed away at me about the other two cars. ie car turning in neighbours drive and car leaving Benaroon Dr at 10.30 and later seen speeding through Kendall.

I can understand if one of the drivers didn't come forward, but two drivers did not come forward. In such a small population that makes me curious. GJ said at Sept '17 presser they are still looking at the cars.

These two cars were seen approximately an hour and a half apart.

'Detectives have also released details about two other cars seen in the area on the morning William wandered around the side of his grandmother's home and disappeared.
One vehicle is a green or grey sedan that drove past the Benaroon Drive house about 9am while William and his sister were riding bikes in the driveway.
Det Insp Jubelin said the car drove into the quiet cul-de-sac, did a u-turn in the neighbour's driveway and drove out of the street.
The second sighting was of a four-wheel-drive driving out of Benaroon Drive about 10.30am - when William vanished - and was later seen speeding down another Kendall street.
"The people driving these cars have not come forward to police," Detective Inspector Jubelin said.'
William Tyrrell detectives hunt for drivers 12 months after disappearance


Did the driver of the first car which drove past the children riding their bikes on the driveway and do a U-turn in the neighbours drive - come back in the white 4 wheel drive.

Did they then turn right onto Batar Creek Rd, hide their crime in the Batar Creek/Middle Brother area and speed back into town to return the w4d before it's absence was noticed.

Two cars, one driver.

Hi Josie. Why don't you believe they were there? curious? i couldn't see where the 4wd was described as white. was it? i must admit sometimes while doing the housework i skim, but i skimmed twice. Did i overlook it? Did the police say it was white?

 

[frogwell]

The two cars parked with windows down aside (as I don't believe they were there) something has always gnawed away at me about the other two cars. ie car turning in neighbours drive and car leaving Benaroon Dr at 10.30 and later seen speeding through Kendall.

I can understand if one of the drivers didn't come forward, but two drivers did not come forward. In such a small population that makes me curious. GJ said at Sept '17 presser they are still looking at the cars.

These two cars were seen approximately an hour and a half apart.

'Detectives have also released details about two other cars seen in the area on the morning William wandered around the side of his grandmother's home and disappeared.
One vehicle is a green or grey sedan that drove past the Benaroon Drive house about 9am while William and his sister were riding bikes in the driveway.
Det Insp Jubelin said the car drove into the quiet cul-de-sac, did a u-turn in the neighbour's driveway and drove out of the street.
The second sighting was of a four-wheel-drive driving out of Benaroon Drive about 10.30am - when William vanished - and was later seen speeding down another Kendall street.
"The people driving these cars have not come forward to police," Detective Inspector Jubelin said.'
William Tyrrell detectives hunt for drivers 12 months after disappearance


Did the driver of the first car which drove past the children riding their bikes on the driveway and do a U-turn in the neighbours drive - come back in the white 4 wheel drive.

Did they then turn right onto Batar Creek Rd, hide their crime in the Batar Creek/Middle Brother area and speed back into town to return the w4d before it's absence was noticed.

Two cars, one driver.

Great post, would like to know why you don't think the parked cars were there. I always wondered if the grey/green parked car was the car that did the uturn earlier in the morning. As for the windows being down, if both cars were like that then I see them as related or looking to be associated with each other. Shonky car parked next to local car, make adjustments to car like lowering the window to make them look like they are together, or they were in fact together, in which case I think of people sleeping or resting in the cars for some reason. MOO