Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #40

[Deleted member 102539]

I'm still unclear about the timing of the third car. Was it when the kids were riding their bikes or when William and mum were playing tiger, sister drawing? I believe FM said the bike riding was shortly after she made the call to Spedding, so 9-9:15? But Mr Crabb returned home at 9:30, so it's likely he was out at the earlier time, and wouldn't have heard that car.

I don't know the time, but FM had to have been near the street, otherwise the "locking eyes" wouldn't make sense, I think. Maybe, she just was going with WT to look for FF (as she said)?

 

[frogwell]

we never heard about this teal car until this week did we? there must be a strategy for keeping this quiet, or maybe the person has been ruled out?

We heard of it at the same time we were informed of the other 2 cars, just that it was a green colour and no other details

 

[sleepinoz]

we never heard about this teal car until this week did we? there must be a strategy for keeping this quiet, or maybe the person has been ruled out?

Yes we heard about it in 2015. It's described in this article.

There was also another vehicle described as a dark green/greyish coloured sedan police are interested in.

William Tyrrell: Police seek information on two cars | audio, video

 

[deugirtni]

Dr.Sleuth is the timeline in the article above correct as far as you remember from being there, or is it all mishmashed and juggled up, with wrong times?

 

[Eloise]

Then maybe it's time the law applied to Social media too. IMO.

It does and always has. I used to participate in a forum for pregnant women who had to shut down their "doctor recommendations" forum because of threats of litigation/defamation cases etc, and any time something happened like for example the case where a midwife was charged with the death of a baby in a homebirth they'd basically ban discussion of it because the laws that apply to journos technically apply everywhere on the 'net. It's just ridiculously harder to prosecute, and there's very different expectations put on gigantic media corporations and their staff.

Australia has some of the most hardcore legislation in regards to this stuff btw. In other countries freedom of the press and freedom of speech are enshrined in laws and constitutions and bills of rights. We don't have anything like that here. It's just a difference in legal practice and custom, not an absolute moral right or wrong.

 

[sleepinoz]

It does and always has. I used to participate in a forum for pregnant women who had to shut down their "doctor recommendations" forum because of threats of litigation/defamation cases etc, and any time something happened like for example the case where a midwife was charged with the death of a baby in a homebirth they'd basically ban discussion of it because the laws that apply to journos technically apply everywhere on the 'net. It's just ridiculously harder to prosecute, and there's very different expectations put on gigantic media corporations and their staff.

Australia has some of the most hardcore legislation in regards to this stuff btw. In other countries freedom of the press and freedom of speech are enshrined in laws and constitutions and bills of rights. We don't have anything like that here. It's just a difference in legal practice and custom, not an absolute moral right or wrong.

So what do you suggest?

I agree to a degree. But there has to be some control over SM for the Courts. People can't be permitted to just say whatever they like, when they like. And some things said on SM are just disgusting, not just in this case.

We don't have Freedom of Speech, unless your a Politician and say these things in Parliament (Parliamentary Privilage)

IMO - Freedom of speech is one thing, SM is another.

 

[CuriousCritter]

This is what one article says:

This is (reportedly) what Mr. Craddock was saying - the reporter is reporting on what he said, intertwined with direct quotes from him:

"Mr Craddock gave a dramatic account of how the morning William disappeared unfolded.

He said William’s foster parents had decided to go up to Kendall to stay with her mother a day earlier than planned.

The foster father had a telephone conference meeting that required “a bit of quiet and a decent internet connection”, and that would be difficult driving with “children in the back”.

After arriving on September 11, 2014, the following morning William and his sister woke early around “six or seven … excited to see Nanna”.
....
The last photograph taken of William, at 9.37am on the day he vanished, shows him dressed in the suit “roaring” like a tiger, Mr Craddock said.

The foster mother saw the two cars parked close to one another in the street just before her husband drove off to have medical prescription filled at the chemist and his conference call meeting in a place where he could get internet reception. [my note: did FD see the cars???? He would've passed right by them???]

On the way home, he sent a text message to his wife via Siri.

At the house, William and his sister were enjoying playing and drawing on the back veranda, and riding their bikes in the driveway.

The foster mother “took William for a walk among … trees between the house and 30 Benaroon Drive”.

She tried to get William to climb a tree with low branches, but “William thought it was too high” and he got back down on the ground.

At this point, the foster mother again saw the old parked cars across the road.

She also has “a distinct recollection” of seeing another car drive up to 52 Benaroon Drive, then reverse and disappear, Mr Craddock said.

The time was “close to 10.30am. William was playing a game pretending to be a daddy tiger.

“William was ducking to the northeast corner of the house and then rushing out and roaring at the ladies,” he said.

“They were drinking tea.”

The foster grandmother had “thought William was being very boisterous and loud”, but the foster mother had replied “he’s a boy, that’s just how they are”.

Minutes later, the foster mother “had just finished her tea and … she noticed it had “become quiet, too quiet”.

“There had been one loud roar and then nothing,” Mr Craddock said.

She called for William, but there was “no response”, and she went looking up Benaroon Drive for his red Spider-Man suit among the green foliage up and down the street.

When her husband arrived home, she asked him: “Is William with you? I can’t find him.”

The foster mother went out along the street and neighbour Anne Maree Sharpley came out to help search.
....
Ms Sharpley saw the foster father “running around the bush calling out ‘William’ … ‘he looked scared, lost, worried’”.

At 10.56am, the foster mother dialled triple-0.
....
She then says, “we have been looking for him for about fifteen or twenty minutes”....

But in the case of William, he was reported missing after about 20 minutes and the first policeman arrived on the scene by 11.06am."

‘Where’s the red?’: Mum’s frantic search

I read it as 'she saw the car turn around at 10:30'.. however, I suppose it can also be interpreted otherwise!!

What about when she saw the cars when she opened the curtains/blinds??

 

[drsleuth]

11/09/'14
9pm Arrive at Kendall, put kids to bed

12/09/'14
6-7am Children get up
7-7.30 FM gets up and opens curtains to see 2 strange cars parked across the road from her house between AMS house and number 35's house.
7.30 - Dress, breakfast, get ready for the day
8.40 - AMS reverses out of her house to take her child to daycare to arrive at 9am. Says there are no cars parked on the street that day when she leaves.
9.00 - Mrs Wilson hears little children outside, leaves house? Doesn't notice any strange cars in the street.
9.03 - FM calls BS, can't remember which phone she uses, leaves a message asking about when the part arrives
9.10? - Kids riding bikes in the driveway, FM notices an Ltd teal coloured car do a 3 point turn in the next door neighbors driveway, remembers driver,
9.15 - FF heads off for a teleconference at Lakewood/laurieton (both have been reported)
9.10- FF plays with WT in the backyard that overlooks Benaroon Dr. Notices the 2 parked cars that she noticed earlier that day are still parked there, tries to get WT to climb a tree
9.37- the last of 5 photos is taken of WT in his spiderman outfit while playing on the back deck, The kids have been drawing pictures to take to the cemetery later in the day
10.15 - 10.30 - WT is playing Mummy Tiger and hiding game around the side of the house, WT is bored and restless waiting for FF to return, FM expecting a text from FF that usually states he will be home in 5 minutes. FM says to kids shall we go down the front and look for Daddy's car'
10.19 - FF has script filled, where?
10.30? - The Crabbes at 51 both noticed hearing a car driving up Benaroon dr, turning and driving away fast, they thought it sounded like the postie. So if that car left the street it went out the Batar Creek rd end of the street.
10.30 approx,- FF states he sent a text via Siri that he is 5 minutes away.
10.30 - FM notices it's quiet and start looking for WT
10.30 - 10.35 - LH is unpacking groceries from her car, she sees the man opposite on his ride on mower when she comes in and gives him a wave. Didn't hear or see any cars.
10.40 - FM is at the front gate of AMS place, meeting for the 1st time, AMS notices she can hear a male calling out for WT from the area behind the FGM's house, begins to start help searching. Because she knows someone is searching uphill she decides to head down towards the Batar Creek rd end of Benaroon Dr. It seems the women split at Ellendale rd. AMS goes down to the bus stop but has no recollection of seeing the man on his ride on mower at that stage. When she returns up the street she sees the FM coming out of Ellendale and the FM says to her, he has hit his head and can't respond or he is not here and now I have to call the police.
10.56 - FM calls the police from her mothers landline, her husband has arrived home somewhere in this time and is searching frantically..

Great timeline Frogwell. I'll go thru it & see if there is anything I can add etc

 

[Eloise]

So what do you suggest?

I agree to a degree. But there has to be some control over SM for the Courts. People can't be permitted to just say whatever they like, when they like. And some things said on SM are just disgusting, not just in this case.

We don't have Freedom of Speech, unless your a Politician and say these things in Parliament (Parliamentary Privilage)

IMO - Freedom of speech is one thing, SM is another.

I mean I don't personally have a solution! It's an argument for the brightest legal and political minds, not me. But I think it's worth discussing. Probably not in this thread though tbh. It's not really relevant. And as I've said (I think three times now ...) of course while the law stands, it should be followed.

I know we don't have freedom of speech in Australia. There are many rights other countries take for granted that we do not have! Our press is also extremely controlled compared to other countries, e.g. truth is a defence against defamation in other countries, where it is not here.

My on-topic contribution: a) I'm very interested to hear what KT has to say! and b) given nobody else saw those cars, I do have to wonder if they were really there at the times she said they were (there, then not there, then there again??). I'm not criticizing the FM at all. I have all the sympathy in the world for her. But the fact that nobody else in the street saw them gives me pause. The human brain is brilliant at trying to fill in gaps to make sense of things. If it happened in that way - coming and going twice, risking being seen twice, but not - then surely it's far from a random chance abduction and it's extremely well planned and well executed, not just a one in a million wrong-place wrong-time situation.

 

[papertrail]

When FM called the police at her mother's house, AMS went and knocked on PS door, he went and joined the search, as AMS approached the Crabbs house, Mrs Crabb leaned over balcony and shouted to AMS, "Is everything alright?" I don't know when AMS saw FM knock on 35's door to no answer, I am guessing when they 1st met, making there way back down the road towards Ellendale and splitting up from each other around that part of the street.

After the phonecall to police FM goes back down to Benaroon dr. Police arrive at Benaroon at 11.06.
11.06 AMS is down the BC end of Benaroon dr. Man on mower, sees police car and asks if everything is alright. Puts away mower, gets dogs and goes for walk looking for WT.
11.06 FM meets 1st responder police on Benaroon Dr, where the cars were parked earlier.
11.30 AMS and FM knock at LH door, she lets the FM search her backyard while she asks AMS what's going on. FM leaves the property and is out the front on the driveway when she puts her 3 y.o in the stroller, puts on her sandshoes to help, sees FF running frantically around the street and asks AMS, who he is. LH heads to Batar Creek rd and turns right and keeps walking till she is level with the house that is set in the bush behind her place, she knows of the old lady and her older son who lives there but hasn't met them. Friends of hers drive past and ask her what she is doing, they ask her do they want help, they will get their quad bikes and return to the big bushy property behind her place and search and they do in as quick as time as it takes. LH turns and heads back towards Benaroon dr. in the other direction and passes it and goes along Batar Creek road for about and other km, thinking he wouldn't have come this far. She heads home, then to Ellendale as she has friends who live there but are at work and searches the property and other properties in Ellendale. While coming back from that she runs into a female on cnr of E and Benaroon and asks about putting out a social media call to her network and calls sister in law to pick up her kids. Within 20 minutes about 25 people have shown up and they organise a line search, shoulder to shoulder, from the back of PS place behind all the neighbors houses to BC road. This was at about 1pm. Police had not searched yet, FM had been called back to the house to be interviewed by police. While the initial line search was happening, quad bikes were searching through the same bush property....

Very clear detail thankyou. May I ask have you been at the inquest for a couple of days? Do you know what day and time the foster mother went searching in her vehicle as described in a media article linked a few messages up thread?

 

[drsleuth]

11/09/'14
9pm Arrive at Kendall, put kids to bed

12/09/'14
6-7am Children get up
7-7.30 FM gets up and opens curtains to see 2 strange cars parked across the road from her house between AMS house and number 35's house.
7.30 - Dress, breakfast, get ready for the day
8.40 - AMS reverses out of her house to take her child to daycare to arrive at 9am. Says there are no cars parked on the street that day when she leaves.
9.00 - Mrs Wilson hears little children outside, leaves house? Doesn't notice any strange cars in the street.
9.03 - FM calls BS, can't remember which phone she uses, leaves a message asking about when the part arrives
9.10? - Kids riding bikes in the driveway, FM notices an Ltd teal coloured car do a 3 point turn in the next door neighbors driveway, remembers driver,
9.15 - FF heads off for a teleconference at Lakewood/laurieton (both have been reported)
9.10- FF plays with WT in the backyard that overlooks Benaroon Dr. Notices the 2 parked cars that she noticed earlier that day are still parked there, tries to get WT to climb a tree
9.37- the last of 5 photos is taken of WT in his spiderman outfit while playing on the back deck, The kids have been drawing pictures to take to the cemetery later in the day
10.15 - 10.30 - WT is playing Mummy Tiger and hiding game around the side of the house, WT is bored and restless waiting for FF to return, FM expecting a text from FF that usually states he will be home in 5 minutes. FM says to kids shall we go down the front and look for Daddy's car'
10.19 - FF has script filled, where?
10.30? - The Crabbes at 51 both noticed hearing a car driving up Benaroon dr, turning and driving away fast, they thought it sounded like the postie. So if that car left the street it went out the Batar Creek rd end of the street.
10.30 approx,- FF states he sent a text via Siri that he is 5 minutes away. He was at Kendall buying the paper when he sent the text
10.30 - FM notices it's quiet and start looking for WT
10.30 - 10.35 - LH is unpacking groceries from her car, she sees the man opposite on his ride on mower when she comes in and gives him a wave. Didn't hear or see any cars.
10:35 FF arrives home & has very brief conversation with FM about WT being missing.
FM : " Is WT with you?" FF : " No, why would he be with me?" FM : He's missing, I can't find him" . FF than got out of car & after FM tells him where she last saw WT & with no further conversation with FM he runs off frantically down the back of # 48 & across to # 52 Benaroon Drive, knowing that FM would have searched the immediate area. He choose this direction as considered that that would be the easiest path WT would take.
10.40 - FM is at the front gate of AMS place, meeting for the 1st time, AMS notices she can hear a male calling out for WT from the area behind the FGM's house, begins to start help searching. Because she knows someone is searching uphill she decides to head down towards the Batar Creek rd end of Benaroon Dr. It seems the women split at Ellendale rd. AMS goes down to the bus stop but has no recollection of seeing the man on his ride on mower at that stage. When she returns up the street she sees the FM coming out of Ellendale and the FM says to her, he has hit his head and can't respond or he is not here and now I have to call the police.
10.56 - FM calls the police from her mothers landline, her husband has arrived home somewhere in this time and is searching frantically..

BBM I've added the bits in green

Edit to add I am pages & pages behind so if I don't reply to a question that's why......

 

[papertrail]

What about when she saw the cars when she opened the curtains/blinds??

Wasn't her testimony that when she opened sliding door at 7am she 1st observed the 2 cars?

 

[they'll get you]

we never heard about this teal car until this week did we? there must be a strategy for keeping this quiet, or maybe the person has been ruled out?

I’m not sure about it being ruled out because they’re speaking about it.
I wonder what the outcome will be there.

 

[papertrail]

ETA: Oops, please see my notes in red above!
Therefore FD must have arrived home RIGHT as WT was being driven out of the neighborhood by the predator, and just about 5 minutes after FM had seen the turquoise LTD with red-haired pot-bellied large man?
Excellent start to a timeline frogwell!

ETA: should we add in that someone (FM?)knocked at #35's door and no answer; and AMS and FM knocked at PS's door and he came out and helped search; and when first officer arrived, lawnmower man wondered what was going on and also assisted; and ??time: Hyslop? neighbor asks officer if she should do a SM plea for search assistance, netting about 25 searchers ?

Can we add in for 11 Sept that foster parents phoned FGM to let her know they were arriving on Thursday not Friday.

Re no 52. Could we add house vacant on day as owners away.

Super timeline Frogwell. Thankyou

 

[they'll get you]

What about when she saw the cars when she opened the curtains/blinds??

Something about a kookaburra.

 

[papertrail]

What could she contribute other than to verify she was not involved.

I believe from previous media the process regarding William's journey into foster care was being discussed this week.

 

[papertrail]

He penny is dropping that so many people have moved but he is still there.
It’s beyond a coincidence now.

What is beyond a coincidence now?

 

[papertrail]

I'm a few pages behind, so excuse me if this has been covered. LH saw lawn-mower-man as she returned from shopping at 10:30-10:35, and said that she waved to him. But when AMS first began looking for William, walking up and down the street, AMS didn't see him. She did see him as the first police car arrived, which would have been 11:05. At that time he asked what all the fuss was about.

So, a few odd things there. Why didn't FM hear the lawn mower directly after William vanished? Where was lawn-mower-man when AMS was first searching, given that he was on his mower a short time before and also after? Why did he have to ask AMS what was going on, when several neighbours were hunting and FF had been doing laps of the street?

Mowing side or rear lawns? Wearing was muffs or earplugs as a lot of people do when mowing.

 

[papertrail]

I'm a few pages behind, so excuse me if this has been covered. LH saw lawn-mower-man as she returned from shopping at 10:30-10:35, and said that she waved to him. But when AMS first began looking for William, walking up and down the street, AMS didn't see him. She did see him as the first police car arrived, which would have been 11:05. At that time he asked what all the fuss was about.

So, a few odd things there. Why didn't FM hear the lawn mower directly after William vanished? Where was lawn-mower-man when AMS was first searching, given that he was on his mower a short time before and also after? Why did he have to ask AMS what was going on, when several neighbours were hunting and FF had been doing laps of the street?

If LH waved at lawnmower man he must have been closer to Batar Creek Rd from her house.

 

[drsleuth]

Mowing side or rear lawns? Wearing was muffs or earplugs as a lot of people do when mowing.

None of your questions can be answered from oral evidence heard in court so far this week, we are just told a man mowing his lawn...........