Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #41

[Thebottomline]

Bring on August, I plan to be there

 

[JLZ]

So another discrepency it seems, she realized the 1st night that WT went missing there were two cars, at the inquest she states remembering 2 cars, 6 days later.

It was reported that she said 6 days later, but I suspect that was misheard. I remember when we discussed it being 6 days I thought it more likely she'd imagined the cars, and then it turned into a much shorter time, a couple of days maybe, and I gave her memory more credit. Did you hear her give that evidence, Frogwell?

 

[frogwell]

Perhaps part of her televised police interview? Not necessarily part of her police statement, as I think the televised police interview would have been carefully worded to exclude hold-back info.

Due to the 'tip of the iceberg' statement by Mr Craddock, I think there is a lot that we don't know, and there is also likely a substantial amount of hold-back info.

All potential foul play cases seem to have hold-back info ... we are struggling with that right now in the Theo Hayez case.

29.50 - 31.15
The Little Boy in the Spiderman Suit
This is a description given of the single car that turned in Benaroon dr. It is an actors voice reading FFC police statement. Question, FFC, FFCM, WT and his sister were all at the driveway at this point in time. The two women were watching the children on their bikes on the driveway. WT's sister notices the car and asks the FFC, " Who's that car mummy?". Wondering where WT and FFCM are when this car is being observed? The description given in the police statement is different to the one given at the coronial inquiry.

 

[stormbird]

FFC's statement describing the green-grey car, transcribed by me from the Lia Harris podcast (ep.1, 24 Jun 2019, on acast):

(30:15)
"[William's sister] said, 'Who's that car, Mummy?' I looked out onto the road and saw a dark green-grey sedan drive past Mum's house, up Benaroon Drive, towards the [neighbours'] house next door. The car just nosed into the [neighbours'] driveway, and then backed out of the driveway. I said to [William's sister], 'I don't know. Probably the neighbour.' I said that because I thought that the [neighbours] were home, and I think they have a car that is sort of similar to that. The last time I saw the car was when it had turned around in the [neighbours'] driveway and had literally just started driving back down the street. The car looked like it was driving with a purpose, as opposed to slowly driving along, like someone who was looking for something. I would have seen the car for less than ten seconds from when I first saw it until I last saw it. I can't remember whether the windows were down. I couldn't see any of the occupants. At this time I turned my attention back towards [William's sister] riding the bike, because she had started riding again."
(31:12)

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It was reported that she said 6 days later, but I suspect that was misheard. I remember when we discussed it being 6 days I thought it more likely she'd imagined the cars, and then it turned into a much shorter time, a couple of days maybe, and I gave her memory more credit. Did you hear her give that evidence, Frogwell?

It's beginning now, to remember me of the missing child case of little Deorr in Idaho (2015) ....

 

[deugirtni]

So another discrepency it seems, she realized the 1st night that WT went missing there were two cars, at the inquest she states remembering 2 cars, 6 days later.

Wasn't it said that FFC remembered about the two cars on the street, when she returned to Benaroon Drive after picking up her sister at the airport?

I think everyone had assumed that this was on the evening of Day#1, but I believe at the inquest it was said to have been a different day?

Were you in attendance at the inquest on the day when FFC described this airport visit and affiliated memory about the two cars frogwell? I thought the sister had arrived much sooner than 6 days later.

Does anyone remember on which day the FCs returned to their home in Sydney?

 

[deugirtni]

Bring on August, I plan to be there

Do you mean you are planning to attend the inquest in August? That will be great to have some WS members there as so much can get missed in the tweets and articles.

 

[Thebottomline]

Do you mean you are planning to attend the inquest in August? That will be great to have some WS members there as so much can get missed in the tweets and articles.

If time affords - yes definitely

 

[RubyHill]

Happy 8th Birthday William,wherever you are.

 

[SouthAussie]

29.50 - 31.15
The Little Boy in the Spiderman Suit
This is a description given of the single car that turned in Benaroon dr. It is an actors voice reading FFC police statement. Question, FFC, FFCM, WT and his sister were all at the driveway at this point in time. The two women were watching the children on their bikes on the driveway. WT's sister notices the car and asks the FFC, " Who's that car mummy?". Wondering where WT and FFCM are when this car is being observed? The description given in the police statement is different to the one given at the coronial inquiry.

Thanks.

Who knows why there are apparent discrepancies. As I said before, I have great empathy for FM .... I don't think the trauma of this whole thing have helped her recall at all, then or now.

As far as I know, FM and all of the parents have been cleared and there is evidence - as per Mr Craddock - that shows that William was abducted.

So, the discrepancies mean very little. It is the facts she is attempting and has attempted to retell - without revealing any hold-back info - that have the greater importance in the case.

 

[JLZ]

Thanks.

Who knows why there are apparent discrepancies. As I said before, I have great empathy for FM .... I don't think the trauma of this whole thing have helped her recall at all, then or now.

As far as I know, FM and all of the parents have been cleared and there is evidence - as per Mr Craddock - that shows that William was abducted.

So, the discrepancies mean very little. It is the facts she is attempting and has attempted to retell - without revealing any hold-back info - that have the greater importance in the case.

The facts are what is important but the facts are screened by people's memories. So you have to deal with the discrepancies. Either you choose one version or you investigate them all, in the hope that something turns up along one of the tracks to confirm that is the right way to go. Perhaps you question whether any of the alternative versions is correct. The good intentions and genuineness of the person remembering really doesn't come into it.

 

[SouthAussie]

The facts are what is important but the facts are screened by people's memories. So you have to deal with the discrepancies. Either you choose one version or you investigate them all, in the hope that something turns up along one of the tracks to confirm that is the right way to go. Perhaps you question whether any of the alternative versions is correct. The good intentions and genuineness of the person remembering really doesn't come into it.

As far as I can see, what is now being 'investigated' is FM's memory.

Was it one day, 6 days, after that she remembered.
Was it that night or another day that she remembered.
Was it hubcaps on or hubcaps off that she remembered (or that were depicted by an artist in MSM).
Was it windows up or windows down that she remembered.
Did she see him, or didn't she see him, that she remembered.

Are the facts being investigated?

Yes, investigate all of the facts - this version or that version - there is no problem with that. There are always conflicting stories in any case. I'm not sure that which day/time something was remembered by FM has any bearing on the case. That is what my post was trying to say.

Nothing gets away from the fact that there will be hold-back info that cannot be revealed, and may be affecting our views due to our ignorance of that info.

 

[JLZ]

As far as I can see, what is being 'investigated' here is FM's memory.

Was it one day, 6 days, after that she remembered.
Was it that night or another day that she remembered.
Was it hubcaps on or hubcaps off that she remembered, or that were depicted in MSM.
Was it windows up or windows down that she remembered.
Did she see him, or didn't she see him, that she remembered.

I don't actually see the facts being investigated. Sure, investigate all of the facts - this version or that version - I see no problem with that.

In my opinion, a "moment of clarity" six days after a traumatic event like this, and after it was suggested to FFC that she would start remembering more as time went on, is less to be trusted than a sudden recollection one or two days after the event. Hubcaps and windows, well, what if the coroner finds a picture of cars as she's described, windows down, no hubcaps (hubcaps apparently mean different things to different people; it seems many cars these days don't have hubcaps in the old sense) and they're definitely connected with the search on the first day? That memory can almost certainly be discounted which means it's easier to accept the theory of a single perpetrator. If the sandy man who locked eyes with FFC hasn't come forward to say he was there, he's certainly a suspect, which opens reasonable doubt on many of the other POIs. But if he's best explained away as a stress hallucination, the other POIs are back in again. (Note that William's sister didn't say "Who's that man?" but "Who's that car, mummy?" To me the very intensity of the recollection makes it more likely to be an artefact of the mind. But I did look into a certain local sandy/grey older man. I can't name him in public; sufficient to say I didn't find a child abuse connection.)

 

[SouthAussie]

In my opinion, a "moment of clarity" six days after a traumatic event like this, and after it was suggested to FFC that she would start remembering more as time went on, is less to be trusted than a sudden recollection one or two days after the event. Hubcaps and windows, well, what if the coroner finds a picture of cars as she's described, windows down, no hubcaps (hubcaps apparently mean different things to different people; it seems many cars these days don't have hubcaps in the old sense) and they're definitely connected with the search on the first day? That memory can almost certainly be discounted which means it's easier to accept the theory of a single perpetrator. If the sandy man who locked eyes with FFC hasn't come forward to say he was there, he's certainly a suspect, which opens reasonable doubt on many of the other POIs. But if he's best explained away as a stress hallucination, the other POIs are back in again. (Note that William's sister didn't say "Who's that man?" but "Who's that car, mummy?" To me the very intensity of the recollection makes it more likely to be an artefact of the mind. But I did look into a certain local sandy/grey older man. I can't name him in public; sufficient to say I didn't find a child abuse connection.)

Yes, I agree with the way that you are looking at it.

Added Note: I don't agree that it should be looked at in the same manner as the Baby DeOrr Kunz Jr case (as a member here has just suggested this case reminds them about), as the parents have been suggested as perps in that case - and in this case, as far as we know, all of the parents have been cleared. They are all victims.

 

[stormbird]

<snipped by stormbird>
Does anyone remember on which day the FCs returned to their home in Sydney?

@deugirtni
"Seven days after William wandered down the side of his grandmother's semi-rural property, where neighbours said she had lived for more than 15 years, his parents and sister made the four-hour drive home with an empty car seat."
- "William Tyrrell investigation: highs, lows and false hope 12 months on," Sydney Morning Herald, 06 Sep 2019

 

[frogwell]

As far as I can see, what is now being 'investigated' is FM's memory.

Was it one day, 6 days, after that she remembered.
Was it that night or another day that she remembered.
Was it hubcaps on or hubcaps off that she remembered (or that were depicted by an artist in MSM).
Was it windows up or windows down that she remembered.
Did she see him, or didn't she see him, that she remembered.

Are the facts being investigated?

Yes, investigate all of the facts - this version or that version - there is no problem with that. There are always conflicting stories in any case. I'm not sure that which day/time something was remembered by FM has any bearing on the case. That is what my post was trying to say.

Nothing gets away from the fact that there will be hold-back info that cannot be revealed, and may be affecting our views due to our ignorance of that info.

What is being looked at, for me is the reliability of the FFC's evidence. Are you stating that it is a fact, there is hold-back evidence that the FFC is talking around when she describes all events leading up to WT's disappearance? The FFC's statements have been the basis of a lot of what the public has been asked to look at. Her witnessing of these cars the day WT disappeared and what they did and what she remembers about them. And what other people can coroborate about what she saw. Everything that everybody has stated about that morning, needs to be looked at carefully, including the FFC. It is strongly understood that she is cleared. IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

What is being looked at, for me is the reliability of the FFC's evidence. Are you stating that it is a fact, there is hold-back evidence that the FFC is talking around when she describes all events leading up to WT's disappearance? The FFC's statements have been the basis of a lot of what the public has been asked to look at. Her witnessing of these cars the day WT disappeared and what they did and what she remembers about them. And what other people can coroborate about what she saw. Everything that everybody has stated about that morning, needs to be looked at carefully, including the FFC. It is strongly understood that she is cleared. IMO

I understand that most follow that she has been cleared. The reference to the Baby DeOrr Kunz Jr case suggests that ponderings of otherwise are still being added to this thread.

I think we all agree that the exact accuracy is questionable, as discussed yesterday. PTSD possibly being a factor of that.

I am stating that hold-back evidence is a known factor in most/all cases, as we discover later on. Is there a reason why hold-back evidence should not be considered as a factor here?

Yes, the evidence is what needs to be looked at. Not when the evidence was presented, as I imagine a lot more evidence will be presented at the next round of the inquest.
Looking at the time when FM remembered events just represents the already agreed unknown accuracy of memory by FM, and perhaps indication of PTSD and/or hold-back info. imo

 

[papertrail]

It was reported that she said 6 days later, but I suspect that was misheard. I remember when we discussed it being 6 days I thought it more likely she'd imagined the cars, and then it turned into a much shorter time, a couple of days maybe, and I gave her memory more credit. Did you hear her give that evidence, Frogwell?

I believe the 6 days later is in reference to when police investigators attended the scene and videod both foster parents. These videos have been released to media by the Coroner and discussed on WS. It is possible statements were taken on that 6th day. FFC has said on docos in 2015 that she remembered the 2 cars when she drove back from the airport on 12th. She also spoke of this recall at Inquest. This has been discussed previously on WS.

 

[papertrail]

Wasn't it said that FFC remembered about the two cars on the street, when she returned to Benaroon Drive after picking up her sister at the airport?

I think everyone had assumed that this was on the evening of Day#1, but I believe at the inquest it was said to have been a different day?

Were you in attendance at the inquest on the day when FFC described this airport visit and affiliated memory about the two cars frogwell? I thought the sister had arrived much sooner than 6 days later.

Does anyone remember on which day the FCs returned to their home in Sydney?

I believe it was said at inquest 6 days later. That would be after the police videos were taken.

FFC definitely stated in previous doco that when she picked up her sister at Pt Macquarie airport on the 12th she recalled about the 2 cars on way back. When they got back to Kendall FFC immediately made her way to police command there and informed them.

 

[papertrail]

The trip to the airport and memory of 2 cars is here. Look for my post as it has link to doco video. I don't get message numbers.

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #39