Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #54

[Bohemian]

You are so right,and this is the system...mmmmm

As Mark Leveson says, “It’s not a justice system, it’s just a system.”

 

[Cleaver Greene]

I have no doubt that Jubelin was a very thorough and determined investigator and went over and above to find out what happened to WT. The victims families of the investigations he has led all speak so highly of him. They believe in him. And most people who have been victims of crime would want him on the case.

I think that everyone wants justice, but justice looks different to different people. Is justice finding out what happened to WT to bring some closure, or is it ensuring that whoever took him is brought to account? Jubelin may have been very close to finding out what happened to WT, but by acting illegally, he has likely ensured that no-one will ever be charged, unless completely new evidence comes out. No evidence collected on Jubelin's watch can be used: the whole investigation has been tainted. Without having any involvement in this case, I think that this is the reason he was removed from the investigation and hasn't been called at the Inquest. Police wanted to completely sideline him to preserve what they could of the evidence gathered.

What if BS or PS cracked under the pressure and admitted to taking WT just because they couldn't cope with the constant intrusions? Case closed. Is that justice if the real perpetrator remains free? Is it justice if BS is locked up for the murder of a little boy because people suspect that he has committed other offences, even though all charges were dismissed? Is it justice if PS is locked up for the murder of a little boy, just because there is an AVO against him and he is "creepy".

The only winner in this case is the person who took WT because he/she/they are unlikely to ever held to account.​

 

[Wexford]

I really do wonder about this case and of course bearing in mind I am only seeing this on the outside. Jubelin, an experienced detective, takes on the case. At the time it is focussed on BS and there is a lot of media coverage of this. He appears to discount BS and focusses on PS. It does not appear he had any interest in FA, GO or RP. It appears to me (again, an outside eye) that as soon as someone found dirt on Jubelin they managed to take him off the case and then the case focus changes completely. Now this of course could be that Jubelin (an extremely experienced investigator) was barking up the wrong tree. But the focus on FA really bothers me. Here is someone with a known reputation, virtually homeless and currently in gaol. And the person who apparently 'knows' he took William, is dead. Isn't it all a little too convenient? Don't get me wrong, I think FA deserves to be locked away and he is obviously a despicable character, but the perpetrator? I'm not too sure.

 

[JLZ]

I really do wonder about this case and of course bearing in mind I am only seeing this on the outside. Jubelin, an experienced detective, takes on the case. At the time it is focussed on BS and there is a lot of media coverage of this. He appears to discount BS and focusses on PS. It does not appear he had any interest in FA, GO or RP. It appears to me (again, an outside eye) that as soon as someone found dirt on Jubelin they managed to take him off the case and then the case focus changes completely. Now this of course could be that Jubelin (an extremely experienced investigator) was barking up the wrong tree. But the focus on FA really bothers me. Here is someone with a known reputation, virtually homeless and currently in gaol. And the person who apparently 'knows' he took William, is dead. Isn't it all a little too convenient? Don't get me wrong, I think FA deserves to be locked away and he is obviously a despicable character, but the perpetrator? I'm not too sure.

If I understand you, you're implying that FA is being set up, either to ensure that Jubelin isn't proved right, or because police know they won't get a conviction against PS under the circumstances (in line with what Cleaver was saying); FA looks a relatively easy target and they'd rather charge the wrong person than no-one?

 

[bearbear]

its very possible jubelin knows exactly who is responsible for williams disapearance and all the "pois" he was focussing on was all part of his strategy,
was he getting too close to arresting the real culprit/s ?
a lot of the local creeps have been exposed and dealt with, but in my opinion,
doubt any named by msm are respnsible for taking william

 

[stormbird]

<RSBM> Jubelin may have been very close to finding out what happened to WT, but by acting illegally, he has likely ensured that no-one will ever be charged, unless completely new evidence comes out. No evidence collected on Jubelin's watch can be used: the whole investigation has been tainted. <snipped>

BBM

Cleaver Greene,

Would you be able to explain the bolded part a bit further, please? I don't understand what you mean. How does yesterday's decision about the PS evidence affect all the other evidence on all other POIs? Thanks.

 

[purpleandgreen]

I suspect the tall poppy syndrome is very much alive and well in this case on several fronts. IMO.

 

[JLZ]

BBM

Cleaver Greene,

Would you be able to explain the bolded part a bit further, please? I don't understand what you mean. How does yesterday's decision about the PS evidence affect all the other evidence on all other POIs? Thanks.

Seconded. I was going to ask Cleaver the same question.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

BBM

Cleaver Greene,

Would you be able to explain the bolded part a bit further, please? I don't understand what you mean. How does yesterday's decision about the PS evidence affect all the other evidence on all other POIs? Thanks.

Jubelin's credibility on this investigation has taken a massive hit. Any evidence gathered on his watch will be scrutinized and questions asked about how it was obtained, regardless of the POI. The judgment yesterday was very damning for him because criticized his entire strategy of focussing in on one suspect regardless of whether the evidence warranted it. The lead investigator on the investigation has been convicted of obtaining evidence unlawfully. This is getting quite technical, but usually the onus is on defence to prove that evidence was obtained unlawfully. Because of the judgment, and the criticisms of Jubelin's investigation technique and his credibility as a witness, prosecution will now have to prove that all the evidence it wants to rely on was obtained lawfully. That will be almost impossible to do.

 

[stormbird]

Jubelin's credibility on this investigation has taken a massive hit. Any evidence gathered on his watch will be scrutinized and questions asked about how it was obtained, regardless of the POI. The judgment yesterday was very damning for him because criticized his entire strategy of focussing in on one suspect regardless of whether the evidence warranted it. The lead investigator on the investigation has been convicted of obtaining evidence unlawfully. This is getting quite technical, but usually the onus is on defence to prove that evidence was obtained unlawfully. Because of the judgment, and the criticisms of Jubelin's investigation technique and his credibility as a witness, prosecution will now have to prove that all the evidence it wants to rely on was obtained lawfully. That will be almost impossible to do.

Thank you. Could the coroner save the day if she orders further investigations?

 

[Cleaver Greene]

Thank you. Could the coroner save the day if she orders further investigations?

I don't think so because so much of the information in front of her is from Jubelin's time heading the investigation. Say there was some evidence was found during Jubelin's time (say, a witness seeing something). The Coroner could order that be further investigated, but if the witness statement was based on a lead that was unlawfully obtained, that witness evidence is also out. It's called "the fruit from the poisoned tree" argument. If the tree is poisoned, then everything that falls from the tree is also poisoned.

I'm a bit worried about what the Coroner's findings will be in light of yesterday's judgment. Of course the Coroner is not bound by the normal rules of evidence so in theory she could consider evidence that had been unlawfully obtained. But there would be no point making a recommendation to the DPP about charges, because that evidence couldn't be used in a criminal trial.

 

[SLouTh]

Thank you. Could the coroner save the day if she orders further investigations?

Hi Stormy, I'm not 100% sure about this .... however I think part of the reason that the Inquest has been so drawn out ... is that the Coroner is trying to "salvage" the investigation, because of the reason that Cleaver gave above....

I think that the Coroner and Laidlaw are working hard behind the scenes gathering fresh evidence, and possibly even new suspects??? So that if a perpetrator is found, then a Defense Lawyer will have a more difficult time in trying to create reasonable doubt, with how the evidence was obtained ...... If that makes sense??

It was also an unprecedented move for the Coroner to open her own "hotline" - possibly another example of her trying to gather "fresh evidence" ??

I think the Magistrate - Hudson, had to find Jubes guilty on the charges, otherwise the Magistrate himself would not be upholding up the law either?? And that is his job ..... Maybe @Cleaver Greene could comment or better explain this than me ?

 

[SLouTh]

I don't think so because so much of the information in front of her is from Jubelin's time heading the investigation. Say there was some evidence was found during Jubelin's time (say, a witness seeing something). The Coroner could order that be further investigated, but if the witness statement was based on a lead that was unlawfully obtained, that witness evidence is also out. It's called "the fruit from the poisoned tree" argument. If the tree is poisoned, then everything that falls from the tree is also poisoned.

I'm a bit worried about what the Coroner's findings will be in light of yesterday's judgment. Of course the Coroner is not bound by the normal rules of evidence so in theory she could consider evidence that had been unlawfully obtained. But there would be no point making a recommendation to the DPP about charges, because that evidence couldn't be used in a criminal trial.

Thanks for your info and clarification @Cleaver Greene ... greatly appreciated!

Lets hope they can find William, for some sense of closure for the families....

 

[PrimeSuspect]

As Mark Leveson says, “It’s not a justice system, it’s just a system.”

Mark Leveson's words are very true!
It's unsatisfactory, imo, that Magistrate Hudson didn't take into consideration the unusual circumstances of the case Jubelin was deeply involved in. He's applied a blanket law to punish Jubelin without making exceptions, and this is why the system is a farce. Jublin's tireless efforts to discover the whereabouts of William deserved an exemption, this is what I hope an appeal will achieve.
As Hudson said, 'in his view, Jubelin acted illegally', another magistrate might take a different view.

 

[SouthAussie]

As Hudson said, 'in his view, Jubelin acted illegally', another magistrate might take a different view.

RSBM (and possibly a little off topic)

And didn't George Pell's outcome today completely prove your words ......

 

[PrimeSuspect]

I have no doubt that Jubelin was a very thorough and determined investigator and went over and above to find out what happened to WT. The victims families of the investigations he has led all speak so highly of him. They believe in him. And most people who have been victims of crime would want him on the case.

I think that everyone wants justice, but justice looks different to different people. Is justice finding out what happened to WT to bring some closure, or is it ensuring that whoever took him is brought to account? Jubelin may have been very close to finding out what happened to WT, but by acting illegally, he has likely ensured that no-one will ever be charged, unless completely new evidence comes out. No evidence collected on Jubelin's watch can be used: the whole investigation has been tainted. Without having any involvement in this case, I think that this is the reason he was removed from the investigation and hasn't been called at the Inquest. Police wanted to completely sideline him to preserve what they could of the evidence gathered.

What if BS or PS cracked under the pressure and admitted to taking WT just because they couldn't cope with the constant intrusions? Case closed. Is that justice if the real perpetrator remains free? Is it justice if BS is locked up for the murder of a little boy because people suspect that he has committed other offences, even though all charges were dismissed? Is it justice if PS is locked up for the murder of a little boy, just because there is an AVO against him and he is "creepy".

The only winner in this case is the person who took WT because he/she/they are unlikely to ever held to account.​

Is justice finding out what happened to WT to bring some closure, or is it ensuring that whoever took him is brought to account?
It should be both, why separate it?

Too many 'what ifs', it simply didn't happen, no one has been 'locked up'! Jubelin is not responsible for the attention that was given to BS, why lay it at his door? He took over the investigation after the warrants for searches of BS premises etc. were well under way.
If you believe Jubelin is a thorough investigator, why make it sound like he's some naive school girl who uses words like 'creepy'?
It's easy as an outsider to criticise the workings of police and as we know, even a convicted, undeniable criminal has rights, so it's difficult to agree with a lawyer in some instances.

 

[PrimeSuspect]

RSBM (and possibly a little off topic)

And didn't George Pell's outcome today completely prove your words ......

Yes, a very good and recent example, sadly.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I have no doubt that Jubelin was a very thorough and determined investigator and went over and above to find out what happened to WT. The victims families of the investigations he has led all speak so highly of him. They believe in him. And most people who have been victims of crime would want him on the case.

I think that everyone wants justice, but justice looks different to different people. Is justice finding out what happened to WT to bring some closure, or is it ensuring that whoever took him is brought to account? Jubelin may have been very close to finding out what happened to WT, but by acting illegally, he has likely ensured that no-one will ever be charged, unless completely new evidence comes out. No evidence collected on Jubelin's watch can be used: the whole investigation has been tainted. Without having any involvement in this case, I think that this is the reason he was removed from the investigation and hasn't been called at the Inquest. Police wanted to completely sideline him to preserve what they could of the evidence gathered.

What if BS or PS cracked under the pressure and admitted to taking WT just because they couldn't cope with the constant intrusions? Case closed. Is that justice if the real perpetrator remains free? Is it justice if BS is locked up for the murder of a little boy because people suspect that he has committed other offences, even though all charges were dismissed? Is it justice if PS is locked up for the murder of a little boy, just because there is an AVO against him and he is "creepy".

The only winner in this case is the person who took WT because he/she/they are unlikely to ever held to account.​

The winner are gj's ex colleagues also in a certain sense, more so the ones, which didn't think of little wt being important enough to find his abductors/abusers/killers or to find spider man alive, moo. They don't deserve this feeling of having the right on their side, in a case, which might have included a whole ring of abusers, old men with bad memory at the right time, moo. But i understand, how all is working, unfortunately.

 

[Cleaver Greene]

If you believe Jubelin is a thorough investigator, why make it sound like he's some naive school girl who uses words like 'creepy'?
It's easy as an outsider to criticise the workings of police and as we know, even a convicted, undeniable criminal has rights, so it's difficult to agree with a lawyer in some instances.

My comments about BS and PS were not how I think Jubelin approached the investigation. I was referring to the treatment of these two men by some members of the public who have an attitude that what has happened to these two men doesn't really matter because they were "creepy".

 

[peekinandy]

This is a sad case for Gary for sure, such a victim's advocate... but since his retirement, haven't new POIs become the focus, and because he wasn't dealing with them (?) the fruit of the poisoned tree may not apply to him/nor them? I hope so @Cleaver Greene. Maybe this case will go on & get solved..

Please don't give up everyone. Don't forget that if William is ever found there might well be some evidence - trace evidence for example - fibres and so much more. Even fingerprints can last for 50 years! We can't give up on William because Gary has been found guilty ... it is still an active investigation
edit - to take out emotion