Australian couple abandon surrogate twin with Down's syndrome in Thailand

[jjenny]

^Exactly. Women aren't vessels and babies aren't commodities. If you go to great lengths to have a child you get what you're given. It shouldn't be like a commercial product that you can return if it's faulty, it's a human being you have responsibility for (not to mention responsibility towards the poor woman who they were exploiting). Leaving him to a life of poverty at best, and slow death or abandonment at worst is cold. This woman shames them even though she has next to nothing.

Well, actually you can specify in a contract that if fetus has certain birth defects, surrogate will have an abortion.

 

[Frigga]

Well, actually you can specify in a contract that if fetus has certain birth defects, surrogate will have an abortion.

Well... that doesn't necessarily make it right or good though- does it?

 

[Sonya610]

I don't know about that JJenny- I see it the exact opposite way, quite frankly. If you are looking for a designer baby and can't produce one yourself maybe you should throw in the towel. Even an adopted baby isn't sure to produce optimal results in health (mental or otherwise) or personality.

It all makes me quite ill... people seeking perfection in an imperfect crap shoot.

There is a difference between a "designer baby" and a baby with severe mental/physical issues that could not survive without medication/surgery.

A very important difference when offspring is very undeveloped, the situation was diagnosed at 4 months into the pregnancy. If the surrogate didn't understand what the diagnosis meant then she eventually will understand, and I doubt if it will be all that happy for the child.

 

[jjenny]

Well... that doesn't necessarily make it right or good though- does it?

It doesn't make it good if somebody's natural child turns out to have severe defects either. But it happens. In which case abortion is an option. I am not sure why it's not right for someone to have the same option just because they are using reproductive technology. All of this is usually specified in a contract. I don't know what kind of a contract this couple had with a surrogate, but sometimes a surrogate will agree to abortion in a contract but refuse to actually have one. In which case it can not be forced.

 

[Frigga]

There is a difference between a "designer baby" and a baby with severe mental/physical issues that could not survive without medication/surgery.

A very important difference when offspring is very undeveloped, the situation was diagnosed at 4 months into the pregnancy. If the surrogate didn't understand what the diagnosis meant then she eventually will understand, and I doubt if it will be all that happy for the child.

But this does not take into consideration the fact that in genetic testing the incidence of false positives are substantial, as well as the potential that these tests can cause miscarriages as well- I think chorionic villus sampling is like 1 in 100. Those are not great odds.

http://www.rhtp.org/fertility/prenatal/

Maternal serum screening measures levels of fetal proteins circulating in the mother’s blood, which may indicate a disorder. Physicians now commonly screen for three or four proteins in the mother’s blood to screen several conditions that are linked to mental retardation and congenital birth defects. Maternal serum screening is done around 15 to 20 weeks. Test results are reported as odds. If the odds are equivalent to or higher than that of a 35 year old, further counseling about prenatal genetic testing is recommended. However, there are significant false positive and false negative rates.

First trimester screening is a new option that is not yet widely available in the United States. It uses the combination of first-trimester ultrasound and a blood test to assess a woman’s risk of having a child with Down Syndrome or other chromosomal abnormalities. Abnormal results from screening tests provide information about the risk that the fetus has a chromosome abnormality. There is a 5 percent false positive rate.
Prenatal diagnosis of genetic abnormalities in a fetus requires two steps: an invasive procedure to obtain fetal genetic material and an analysis of the material to identify genetic abnormalities.

Amniocentesis is generally considered a relatively simple and safe procedure when performed by an experienced physician. Although miscarriage after amniocentesis is rare (one in 200-400 cases), it is a reason the procedure is not generally offered to all women. Amniocentesis is usually performed in the second trimester of pregnancy. Amniocentesis can be performed as early as 11 weeks, but is considered too risky by most providers.

Chorionic villus sampling (CVS) is an alternative to amniocentesis, and can be performed during the first trimester of pregnancy – typically at 10 to 13 weeks. Fetal cells are obtained through biopsy of the chorionic villi – the cells that will become the placenta. CVS can be used to determine virtually all disorders that can be diagnosed by amniocentesis except the presence of neural tube defects, because CVS does not include analysis of amniotic fluid for alpha-fetoprotein. Fewer doctors have been trained to perform CVS than are trained in amniocentesis, and as a result, it is not offered in all areas. Risk of miscarriage after CVS is approximately 1 in 100.

 

[Frigga]

There is a difference between a "designer baby" and a baby with severe mental/physical issues that could not survive without medication/surgery.

A very important difference when offspring is very undeveloped, the situation was diagnosed at 4 months into the pregnancy. If the surrogate didn't understand what the diagnosis meant then she eventually will understand, and I doubt if it will be all that happy for the child.

BBM- I guess therein lies the rub- Down syndrome does not automatically constitute SEVERE MENTAL ISSUES. Nor does it automatically constitute SEVERE Physical issues.

My son, as well as many individuals I know are extremely high functioning mentally and emotionally.

I know many adults with Down syndrome who did not/do not have severe health or physical issues. Many have no health issues, at all.

Are we now aborting any fetus who presents with a medical issue?

My perfectly typical and ultimately healthy second child... a daughter- was born with the exact same heart defects her brother was- they closed on their own within the first 6 months of her life- which many VSD's and ASD's do. What if we had aborted her?

I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this. I do appreciate your viewpoint and understand it.

Maybe it hits too close to home for me.

I'm glad it does though.

 

[Supernovae]

It doesn't make it good if somebody's natural child turns out to have severe defects either. But it happens. In which case abortion is an option. I am not sure why it's not right for someone to have the same option just because they are using reproductive technology. All of this is usually specified in a contract. I don't know what kind of a contract this couple had with a surrogate, but sometimes a surrogate will agree to abortion in a contract but refuse to actually have one. In which case it can not be forced.

a) No it isn't good that society regards people with diablities as disposable, luxuries, or an optional extra, in the natural course of things.

b) They're not simply using a "reproductive technology," they're engaging another party and their body and emotions in the process. It's both her right and responsibility to protect her own wellbeing and that of the child above any "contract." If that puts the parents (or should I say parent- the father doesn't get any final veto on what the mother does in any case) in a different position to if one of them was carrying the baby themselves then that's simply tough.

c) They can whinge all they like after the fact but that doesn't change the morality or otherwise of abandoning their infant with serious medical needs to his fate in a developing country without a backward glance, and to the financial detriment of a family already living in poverty.

 

[jjenny]

a) No it isn't good that society regards people with diablities as disposable, luxuries, or an optional extra, in the natural course of things.

b) They're not simply using a "reproductive technology," they're engaging another party and their body and emotions in the process. It's both her right and responsibility to protect her own wellbeing and that of the child above any "contract." If that puts the parents (or should I say parent- the father doesn't get any final veto on what the mother does in any case) in a different position to if one of them was carrying the baby themselves then that's simply tough.

c) They can whinge all they like after the fact but that doesn't change the morality or otherwise of abandoning their infant with serious medical needs to his fate in a developing country without a backward glance, and to the financial detriment of a family already living in poverty.

Whether somebody agrees with it or not, abortion rate for fetuses with Down syndrome is very high in the developed world. I don't think this couple should have abandoned the infant once he was born.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

BBM- I guess therein lies the rub- Down syndrome does not automatically constitute SEVERE MENTAL ISSUES. Nor does it automatically constitute SEVERE Physical issues.

My son, as well as many individuals I know are extremely high functioning mentally and emotionally.

I know many adults with Down syndrome who did not/do not have severe health or physical issues. Many have no health issues, at all.

Are we now aborting any fetus who presents with a medical issue?

My perfectly typical and ultimately healthy second child... a daughter- was born with the exact same heart defects her brother was- they closed on their own within the first 6 months of her life- which many VSD's and ASD's do. What if we had aborted her?

I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this. I do appreciate your viewpoint and understand it.

Maybe it hits too close to home for me.

I'm glad it does though.

Same here, I have known downs syndrome kids who are very high functioning too .. I can't believe that there are people alive who could look into that beautiful face and reject it. I might be biased, but downs syndrome kids are just gorgeous humans with big generous hearts in my experience and the thought of hurting one of those beautiful souls seems impossible .. I cried when this caring surrogate mother spoke of her love for the baby she carried 'in her tummy' for nine months, thank god he was born to her is all I can say.

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/...abandoned-baby-Gammy-accused-of-unforgiveable

 

[jjenny]

Same here, I have known downs syndrome kids who are very high functioning too .. I can't believe that there are people alive who could look into that beautiful face and reject it. I might be biased, but downs syndrome kids are just gorgeous humans with big generous hearts in my experience and the thought of hurting one of those beautiful souls seems impossible .. I cried when this caring surrogate mother spoke of her love for the baby she carried 'in her tummy' for nine months, thank god he was born to her is all I can say.

http://www.9news.com.au/World/2014/...abandoned-baby-Gammy-accused-of-unforgiveable

This is a very sick infant. He has a lung infection and a heart defect. He might not make it. Infants with Down syndrome are prone to infections, particularly in lungs, and large number of infants with Down syndrome have heart defects.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I guarantee you, if baby Gammy's condition worsens in a major way, he will be 'medi-vacced' to the best children's hospital in Australia .. absolutely guarantee it.

 

[jjenny]

I guarantee you, if baby Gammy's condition worsens in a major way, he will be 'medi-vacced' to the best children's hospital in Australia .. absolutely guarantee it.

I don't think there is any chance of this happening. Thailand changed surrogacy laws after this case. Australia now has no right to him, as far as I can tell.

 

[gitana1]

Very sad for both to be separated.

So many have donated money so Gammy can have the much needed operations and a good start in life. His parents deserted him to a life of poverty and he would surely have died but for the kindness of people donating money and Pattromon willing to care for him. The parents should feel very, very ashamed imo.

Not only should they feel ashamed, they should be charged. I'm not sure if there is a law covering what they did but I hope there is. This is disgusting.

I'm guessing he wasn't simply abandoned. Australia is very tight about bringing in individuals with disabilities. Is it possible that legally speaking, adoption is involved in surrogacy? I know a gentleman with an adopted child with DS, he can't move back home and take her. His family went on to adopt another disabled child that had been raised by Australians in another country, they couldn't adopt him and take him home, so they chose to find another family for him.

Are you kidding me? That's like eugenics! Can you link me to some info? I'd like to read up on that.

What a cutie pie Gammy is!

Yes about 48% of babies born with Down syndrome have a congenital heart defect- doctors today are very adept at the reparations.

My son with Down syndrome is the light of our lives- I wouldn't want the Australian couple to raise him.

His life will be hard enough with those who don't know or love him- he will need those closest to him to honor, adore and love him... sounds like the surrogate mom and family will be that for him.

I feel so sorry for his twin sister.

I think it will be very hard for this little angel to get the early intervention and medical care he needs in a third world country with a poverty stricken 21 year old taking care of him. Even with donations.

I side with the couple on this one.

Oh hon, please tell me you aren't serious. Please tell me you don't think it is right to abandon your vulnerable, disabled baby, your own flesh and blood, in a third world country, to a poverty stricken young, unrelated woman?

 

[Mrs G Norris]

I don't think there is any chance of this happening. Thailand changed surrogacy laws after this case. Australia now has no right to him, as far as I can tell.

Watch this space, we bring kids in trouble in asian countries over to Australia for medical treatment all the time, I bet the hospitals and surgeons are lining up to help him, especially with his heart condition .. don't remember saying that we had any 'right' to him.

 

[gitana1]

Well, actually you can specify in a contract that if fetus has certain birth defects, surrogate will have an abortion.

Yeah well nowhere but China can a woman be compelled to have an abortion. And surrogacy contracts absolving parents of responsibility should the surrogate fail to abort a disabled child are likely illegal in Thailand and probably Australia as well

Finally, when you enter into a contract with a poor young woman in a third world country, you shouldn't be surprised if she doesn't uphold its terms and you shouldn't be absolved f responsibility for the human being you created when she doesn't abort. This is what's called an "unconscionable" contract. It's sick.

 

[jjenny]

Watch this space, we bring kids in trouble in asian countries over to Australia for medical treatment all the time, I bet the hospitals and surgeons are lining up to help him, especially with his heart condition .. don't remember saying that we had any 'right' to him.

Well it sounds like he is going to need it. He is a very sick infant.

 

[jjenny]

Yeah we'll nowhere but China can a woman be compelled to have an abortion. And surrogacy contracts absolving parents of responsibility should the surrogate fail to abort a disabled child are likely illegal in Thailand and probably Australia as well

Finally, when you enter into a contract with a poor young woman in a third world country, you shouldn't be surprised if she doesn't uphold its terms and you shouldn't be absolved f responsibility for the human being you created when she doesn't abort. This is what's called an "unconscionable" contract. It's sick.

Yes, you can not enforce this part of the contract. There was a similar case in US. Fetus had severe defects, surrogate refused to abort. She moved to another state to have the infant. Couple did not take the infant. My point is, someone who doesn't believe in abortion should not agree to surrogacy. Unless they are in the same wavelength with the bio parents in regards to abortion.

 

[LaborDayRN]

Not only should they feel ashamed, they should be charged. I'm not sure if there is a law covering what they did but I hope there is. This is disgusting.



Are you kidding me? That's like eugenics! Can you link me to some info? I'd like to read up on that.




I think it will be very hard for this little angel to get the early intervention and medical care he needs in a third world country with a poverty stricken 21 year old taking care of him. Even with donations.



Oh hon, please tell me you aren't serious. Please tell me you don't think it is right to abandon your vulnerable, disabled baby, your own flesh and blood, in a third world country, to a poverty stricken young, unrelated woman?

:tyou:

 

[Supernovae]

I guarantee you, if baby Gammy's condition worsens in a major way, he will be 'medi-vacced' to the best children's hospital in Australia .. absolutely guarantee it.

It should happen before he deteriorates. He needs proactive care and someone in Australia needs to set up a petition to the Government to ensure this happens.

 

[Mrs G Norris]

Medical Visa Australia: http://www.immi.gov.au/Visas/Pages/602.aspx

Since the condition needs to be life threatening I think Gammy meets the requirements in spades.