Autopsy Report - UCF Osteological Analysis-Duct Tape Info

[KenoshaKid]

I believe the tape was used to try to stop the flow of bodily fluids after death. I don't believe the child was suffocated or strangled.

How come?

 

[YellowDog]

My belief.

 

[Jolynna]

I don't know how you could conclude that was when she was alive. I've always thought that maybe........just maybe she placed the tape there to keep the body fluids from leaking after death.

In my opinion, taping to stop leaking of body fluids is not a possibility.

By the time a body leaks fluids decomposition is well underway. The autopsy report stated that clearly the tape was on before decomposition. "Clearly" is a pretty strong word to use in a technical report.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/index.htm

 

[maswondering2]

i feel it was placed to silence Caylee...thats why so many strips ...then when the struggle subsided....the heart sticker

 

[2goldfish]

In my opinion, taping to stop leaking of body fluids is not a possibility.

By the time a body leaks fluids decomposition is well underway. The autopsy report stated that clearly the tape was on before decomposition. "Clearly" is a pretty strong word to use in a technical report.

http://www.dundee.ac.uk/forensicmedicine/notes/timedeath.pdf

http://www.deathonline.net/decomposition/index.htm

in addition, the remains were placed IN TWO TRASH BAGS. why tape up the face at all, that means you have to look at it? I bet she didnt want to look at it. That's how people are. mothers also hide the body in the home or nearby. she might be soulless or nutballs or however you want to say but she cant change being a human being. Saying she taped the baby's face like that to prevent leaking which, I might add, poured from the diaper area long before the nose and mouth just does not make any sense.

 

[impatientredhead]

I wonder if those who believe the duct tape was applied after death to prevent fluid leakage, would believe the same if no decomp was ever found in the trunk of Casey's vehicle?

The logic of this is unreasonable to me, because if I had just found a child whose face was covered in multiple layers of duct tape tight enough to keep the mandible in place, the most reasonable conclusion would be that this child was murdered, and that the duct tape was an instrument used in the process of killing, I wouldn't even ponder, oh maybe it was just an accident and the poor caretaker was scared about leaking decomp somewhere, so decided to plug the holes with duct tape. "Reasonable" doubt, doesn't mean beyond a "Shadow Of" a doubt! I hope the jury knows the difference.

The fluid leakage theory has never made any sense to me whatsoever.
For one it implies that she was thinking about forensics and nothing else about the crime scene shows any consideration of forensics.

It is also being evaluated in hindsight. In hindsight maybe she was trying to contain the fluids so they weren't in her trunk. If Casey had ever given forensics a second thought why would she plan to store the body until it was leaking?

Her burial of choice took 3 minutes tops, less time than it would take to tape and wrap the body. Not to mention worrying about what would come out of her mouth is like treating a small flesh wound while the victim is bleeding out from another one. The purge is where the large volume of fluids initially begins and that is expelled via the rectum.

If you look up victims that had duct tape applied to their mouth it is either to suffocate them or silence them while they kill them through other means.

 

[Mystic]

I wonder if those who believe the duct tape was applied after death to prevent fluid leakage, would believe the same if no decomp was ever found in the trunk of Casey's vehicle?

The logic of this is unreasonable to me, because if I had just found a child whose face was covered in multiple layers of duct tape tight enough to keep the mandible in place, the most reasonable conclusion would be that this child was murdered, and that the duct tape was an instrument used in the process of killing, I wouldn't even ponder, oh maybe it was just an accident and the poor caretaker was scared about leaking decomp somewhere, so decided to plug the holes with duct tape. "Reasonable" doubt, doesn't mean beyond a "Shadow Of" a doubt! I hope the jury knows the difference.

I agree with you tweety. I just haven't found anything to show that KC would have known about leakage or planned to keep the body around for any length of time to prepare for that. She would have covered other places the body would have leaked.

The other thing about that scenerio is, if she didn't murder her with the duct but used it to stop leakage. Then how did she murder her? jmo

 

[Jolynna]

Something led Dr. G to her conclusion that Caylee's manner of death was "homicide" by undetermined means. Dr. G could have ruled the death "undetermined" and left the possibility open for an accident. She didn't.

I think Dr. G's wording means that somebody definitely killed Caylee. But KC could have administered chloroform to sedate before taping that caused Caylee to die before she smothered. KC could have impatiently strangled Caylee after taping. Nobody can say that the tape was the direct cause of death. Thus while Dr. G could not say how Caylee was killed, Dr. G could rule out death by accident or natural causes. She ruled the cause of death to be homicide. Only the means remained undetermined.

 

[snow_walker]

I wonder how long it was between the taping and the poor little thing passing away? I can't help but think Caylee would have struggled violently to get the tape off and to breathe. If she wasn't restrained surely she would have tried to get away from KC. If CA or GA were home at the time, surely they would have heard that struggle going on, and come to investigate. If she were restrained, KC must have been restraining her with her own body. It seems to me that surely she would have felt little Caylee struggling, seen her struggle, and relented.. I just can't come up with a scenerio that seems right.

I so wish I believed that she were chloroformed first, but I just can't buy that anymore, either. I believe she died in the house, but if she did, then it would have smelt of chloroform if it were used.. (seems much more likely to me that they used the chloroform to clean the trunk with, and in an attempt to rid it of maggots and odour)

Perhaps she taped her up and put her in the closet to die, where she didn't have to watch the struggle, and perhaps if the parents were home, the noise would have been muffled a bit.

 

[spyhouston]

Seems to me that one strip of tape would be enough to keep someone quiet. Multiple layers tells me KC was in a rage and completely out of control. Each layer of tape was to 'teach Caylee a lesson'. Something Caylee told CA that day may have caused the huge argument. But I just don't know what I think about if it happened that night or the next day. All I know is that I can't forget how quickly and easily KC slipped over the edge into rage in that jailhouse video visit with CA/GA. Whenever the taping happened, I believe it was pure fury, pure rage, not to simply keep Caylee quiet, and not to stop decomp fluids.

 

[Jolynna]

I wonder how long it was between the taping and the poor little thing passing away? I can't help but think Caylee would have struggled violently to get the tape off and to breathe. If she wasn't restrained surely she would have tried to get away from KC. If CA or GA were home at the time, surely they would have heard that struggle going on, and come to investigate. If she were restrained, KC must have been restraining her with her own body. It seems to me that surely she would have felt little Caylee struggling, seen her struggle, and relented.. I just can't come up with a scenerio that seems right.

I so wish I believed that she were chloroformed first, but I just can't buy that anymore, either. I believe she died in the house, but if she did, then it would have smelt of chloroform if it were used.. (seems much more likely to me that they used the chloroform to clean the trunk with, and in an attempt to rid it of maggots and odour)

Perhaps she taped her up and put her in the closet to die, where she didn't have to watch the struggle, and perhaps if the parents were home, the noise would have been muffled a bit.

Yesterday I read that it takes 2 to 5 minutes to die from smothering. (http://books.google.com/books?id=5Z...DOwJcB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)

That would seem like an eternity if you were were desperately trying to get air. It would seem like an eternity if you were sitting on someone waiting for them to die.

KC would have had time to relent.

Once the tape was on and with her mother sitting on her, Caylee couldn't have made noise. Caylee's arms would have been restrained. Caylee didn't have shoes on. The bedroom floors are carpeted. Nobody would have heard her kicking.

IMO

 

[USARDOG]

Yesterday I read that it takes 2 to 5 minutes to die from smothering. (http://books.google.com/books?id=5Z...DOwJcB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1)

That would seem like an eternity if you were were desperately trying to get air. It would seem like an eternity if you were sitting on someone waiting for them to die.

KC would have had time to relent.

Once the tape was on and with her mother sitting on her, Caylee couldn't have made noise. Caylee's arms would have been restrained. Caylee didn't have shoes on. The bedroom floors are carpeted. Nobody would have heard her kicking.

IMO

No, this scenario will not fly imo. There is no way kc taped her mouth and held her down and i will tell you why... it is too much like work, too many chances to be discovered trying to kill Caylee. i believe we will soon learn kc used C&G's drugs to sedate her.

2-5 min to die from suffocation is a very misleading figure, because of the term, ''to die,'' the more relevant number imo, ''to loose consciousness.'' that imo, would be one minute or less.

 

[Tuffy]

No, this scenario will not fly imo. There is no way kc taped her mouth and held her down and i will tell you why... it is too much like work, too many chances to be discovered trying to kill Caylee. i believe we will soon learn kc used C&G's drugs to sedate her.

2-5 min to die from suffocation is a very misleading figure, because of the term, ''to die,'' the more relevant number imo, ''to loose consciousness.'' that imo, would be one minute or less.

Excellent point, USARDOG! I would have fallen for the misleading figure, too. While it does take about 4 minutes for brain death to occur when deprived of oxygen; it doesn't take that long to lose consciousness.

I'm not as sure as you about the drugs though. You think it will be proven, how?

 

[USARDOG]

I'm not as sure as you about the drugs though. You think it will be proven, how?

your post edited for brevity.

i was forwarded an EXCELLENT article about Florida's sunshine law, the first authoritative article i have read on this mess. i believe the state has a lot more evidence, and what we have seen is only the tip of the iceberg. i believe tox results will come out showing drug residue in Caylee's bones.

 

[Tuffy]

i was forwarded an EXCELLENT article about Florida's sunshine law, the first authoritative article i have read on this mess. i believe the state has a lot more evidence, and what we have seen is only the tip of the iceberg. i believe tox results will come out showing drug residue in Caylee's bones.

Would they be able to detect drugs in her bones from a one time dose, given as a fatal dose or immediately before death? I am thinking that any drugs given just prior to her death would not be able to be detected.

Not that I don't believe there were drugs involved in her death. I just think that lab results confirming it might be hard to come by.

The tox screens on her hair were negative right?

 

[USARDOG]

Yes, my understanding is, tox results from hair were negative, and as a one time use, this is normal because it takes prolonged exposure for any drugs to get into hair. However, bones are a different matter, the blood supply will take the drug and deposit residue directly into the bones, and it is this residue that we have yet to hear about.

 

[Jolynna]

No, this scenario will not fly imo. There is no way kc taped her mouth and held her down and i will tell you why... it is too much like work, too many chances to be discovered trying to kill Caylee. i believe we will soon learn kc used C&G's drugs to sedate her.

2-5 min to die from suffocation is a very misleading figure, because of the term, ''to die,'' the more relevant number imo, ''to loose consciousness.'' that imo, would be one minute or less.

Good points.

Bottom line though, is even if the exact means of death is never determined, the duct tape was not put on Caylee with benign intent. It would not be reasonable for a person to think putting layer after layer of duct tape over a living child's mouth and nose wouldn't have fatal results.

IMO

 

[Tuffy]

Yes, my understanding is, tox results from hair were negative, and as a one time use, this is normal because it takes prolonged exposure for any drugs to get into hair. However, bones are a different matter, the blood supply will take the drug and deposit residue directly into the bones, and it is this residue that we have yet to hear about.

Thanks, USARDOG. I'm glad to hear that there is still a chance to get toxicology findings about any drugs that may have been in her system around the time of death. I was under the impression that all hope of that was lost because of the lack of soft tissue, or body fluids to test.

 

[MissJames]

No, this scenario will not fly imo. There is no way kc taped her mouth and held her down and i will tell you why... it is too much like work, too many chances to be discovered trying to kill Caylee. i believe we will soon learn kc used C&G's drugs to sedate her.

2-5 min to die from suffocation is a very misleading figure, because of the term, ''to die,'' the more relevant number imo, ''to loose consciousness.'' that imo, would be one minute or less.

While I agree about the possibility of drugs,I can still see KC holding Caylee down and enjoying it.IF she was in a rage her adreniline would be pumping and it would have been easy for her to do.

 

[Tuffy]

While I agree about the possibility of drugs,I can still see KC holding Caylee down and enjoying it.IF she was in a rage her adreniline would be pumping and it would have been easy for her to do.

I agree with you about KC holding Caylee down. It could have been, but I don't think is was in a rage necessarily either. I believe that the murder was done in a cold, methodical manner.

That is why I think the duct tape was placed before death, and I have never thought the death was accidental.

I think I believe this way because of the lack of emotion KC has shown toward her daughter and the events surrounding her murder.