AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[NuttMegg]

See post 57 in this thread (further clarified in post 61), posted yesterday with link to an article yesterday (Fri Feb 24) with current info and which quotes Deputy Chief Gerardo Castillo:

"We have stand your ground here, but, if they deem that he was shot in the back while fleeing, then that may prove troublesome for the property owner. However,” Castillo added, “we do have an entry or exit wound either in the chest area or the back.”

So as of yesterday, they still didn't know one way or the other whether he was shot in front or back. And from what I've read, they also haven't linked the wound to a shot from Kelly's gun. Some of us want to see this actually investigated, with FACTS being determined, before calling for a lynch mob.

Victim in Kino Springs shooting identified as Nogales, Sonora man

The Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office said Friday that it had tentatively identified the man who was shot and killed Monday in the Kino Springs area as Gabriel Cuen Buitimea,

www.nogalesinternational.com

That article is from Feb 3, just 3 days after the event, before they knew the extent of the wound, when they were still notifying relatives before releasing the name of the victim. It's clear that DC G Castillo's office didn't yet know what happened, because he says "if they deem that he was shot in the back while fleeing..." ie he doesn't yet know what Kelly is being charged with.

19 days later....
On Feb 22 it was cleared up, "NOGALES — The prosecuting attorney in the case of the Nogales area rancher who is facing a first-degree murder charge alleged on Wednesday that the rancher shot and killed a Mexican citizen in the back as he ran for his life."
-----------
"Hunley mentioned that the prosecution is not providing all of the details in the case so as not to make them publicly known."

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

 

[pentimento]

Prosecutors have made the claim that the man was shot in the back. In their motion they wrote:

A sergeant examined the face-down body, observing what appeared to be an entry wound at the man’s back, according to the motion.

Prosecutors say rancher ambushed unarmed migrants, shot man in back

The allegations offer the first detailed look at the prosecution’s case against George Alan Kelly. And they substantially contradict an account previously outlined by Kelly’s attorney in which he claimed

www.nogalesinternational.com

 

[FLmom777]

This isn't going to help much -

He has identified himself in court as a rancher, but also appears to dabble in self-published fiction about ranch life in the border region

One of his books, available as an ebook on Amazon, is entitled Far Beyond the Border Fence and is described as 'bringing the Mexican border/ drug conflict into the 21st century.'

The protagonists of the story are a couple whose first names match Kelly's and his wife, Wanda's, with a child baring his son's name.

The 57-page work revolves around the couple living in southern Arizona at the VMR Ranch — Kelly and his wife's real-life ranch is called Vermilion Mountain Ranch.

It describes how the character George and his foreman 'had to patrol the ranch daily, armed with AK-47s.'

Arizona rancher, 73, is charged for shooting dead Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested for fatally shooting Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his Arizona ranch on January 30.

www.dailymail.co.uk

How does it hurt. If anything I think it helps by showing there has been a serious problem at the ranch. Many ranchers have been having trouble along the entire border. The activity is costing them a lot of money in damaged fences and list livestock.

 

[NuttMegg]

Prosecutors have made the claim that the man was shot in the back. In their motion they wrote:

A sergeant examined the face-down body, observing what appeared to be an entry wound at the man’s back, according to the motion.

Prosecutors say rancher ambushed unarmed migrants, shot man in back

The allegations offer the first detailed look at the prosecution’s case against George Alan Kelly. And they substantially contradict an account previously outlined by Kelly’s attorney in which he claimed

www.nogalesinternational.com

Wow. I wonder if that is also what he describes in his book.
---------------------
From your link: The prosecution’s motion also asserts that Kelly’s own story changed throughout the day on Jan. 30.
Around 2:30 p.m., the motion said, Kelly contacted a Border Patrol ranch liaison, telling the agent: “I’m being shot at and I’m shooting back.”
But six minutes later, Kelly told the liaison it was too far to tell if the individuals had firearms.
About two hours later, Kelly contacted the same agent.
“By this time, (Kelly’s) story had significantly changed,” Hunley’s motion says.
During the 4:23 p.m. call, Kelly told the liaison he’d been sitting in his house with his wife when the two of them heard a gunshot. Kelly then claimed to walk outside to his porch, where he saw his horse running by.
During that call, Kelly reportedly told the liaison he’d seen 10 subjects with assault rifles."

 

[Erutan]

Stand your ground generally applies to an intruder actually entering your home, in some states.
Even if they're on your screened-in front porch, you can't take action unless they're breaking into your house; iirc ?
Every state is different, of course.
Am just jumping in here and have a lot of catching up to do in this thread.
Not sure what to think of GK's actions as the information is so conflicting.

I'm curious -- if GA didn't shoot the trespasser, did one of the group accidentally shoot him ?
What a cluster.
Did they check GA's hands for GSR ?

Did both the homeowner and the trespassers have the same type of weapons/ballistics ?
Since the others fled, it's impossible to check their guns or test for GSR.
How far from GA's house were they ?
Cameras catch anything -- assuming GA's family have doorbell/trail/building cameras set up ?
If he had issues with people traipsing over his land, I'd assume he did have cameras.
That may be his best defense.

Were they just passing through or did GA fear they were going to break into an outbuilding or garage ?
I don't mean to make light of this by saying 'just passing through'.
Walking on other people's land is a bad idea.
You have no idea if the homeowners' have a mad bull in a pen, or if they fear you are breaking and entering, etc. !

We haven't heard the specifics from GA but if he's had issues with trespassing that would be cause for concern.
Some people will even sue if they get hurt on your land.

If the family was eating, and heard a shot, that would've alerted them that there could be danger.

There needs to be a full investigation ... but a fair one as well -- for both parties.
M00.

 

[FLmom777]

Where does it say he was not shot in the back...I'd like to request a link for that because so far no one has posted an article with that claim.

I’ve been trying to find the article I read that stated it could be an exit or entry wound.

 

[NuttMegg]

I’ve been trying to find the article I read that stated it could be an exit or entry wound.

It might be this one, from Feb 3, 3 days after the shooting when they had just identified the victim but were withholding his name. The official didn't yet know if it was an entrance or exit wound, he referred to "If they deem it....", ie he didn't know yet.

But 19 days later after the investigation the prosecutor says he was shot in the back.

Victim in Kino Springs shooting identified as Nogales, Sonora man

The Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office said Friday that it had tentatively identified the man who was shot and killed Monday in the Kino Springs area as Gabriel Cuen Buitimea,

www.nogalesinternational.com

 

[Tutter]

That article is from Feb 3, just 4 days after the event, before they knew the extent of the wound, when they were still notifying relatives before releasing the name of the victim. It's clear that DC G Castillo's office didn't yet know what happened, because he says "if they deem that he was shot in the back while fleeing..." ie he doesn't yet know what Kelly is being charged with.

19 days later....
On Feb 22 it was cleared up, "NOGALES — The prosecuting attorney in the case of the Nogales area rancher who is facing a first-degree murder charge alleged on Wednesday that the rancher shot and killed a Mexican citizen in the back as he ran for his life."
-----------
"Hunley mentioned that the prosecution is not providing all of the details in the case so as not to make them publicly known."

'Political powder keg': New details emerge as rancher charged with murder of Mexican citizen returns to court

George Alan Kelly, 75, is facing a first-degree murder charge for a man found on Jan. 30 shot dead on his ranch near Kino Springs.

www.azcentral.com

that link is old. Yesterday, Feb 24 charges were DOWNGRADED to second degree charges. Downgraded.

Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly's murder charge downgraded to second-degree in shooting of Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, the 73-year-old rancher accused of shooting and killing a Mexican man on his Arizona property on Jan. 30, has had his murder charge downgraded.

www.foxnews.com

yes, prosecutors allege he was shot in the back, but so far no evidence has been released to support that statement. That information, along with ballistics and time of death have not been released.

 

[NuttMegg]

that link is old. Yesterday, Feb 24 charges were DOWNGRADED to second degree charges. Downgraded.

Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly's murder charge downgraded to second-degree in shooting of Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, the 73-year-old rancher accused of shooting and killing a Mexican man on his Arizona property on Jan. 30, has had his murder charge downgraded.

www.foxnews.com

yes, prosecutors allege he was shot in the back, but so far no evidence has been released to support that statement. That information, along with ballistics and time of death have not been released.

I guess that is due to possible lack of proof of premeditation. But I wish his attorney would have clarified the part where she says that 2nd degree is harder to prove than 1st degree, paraphrased. First time I've ever heard that.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

that link is old. Yesterday, Feb 24 charges were DOWNGRADED to second degree charges. Downgraded.

Arizona rancher George Alan Kelly's murder charge downgraded to second-degree in shooting of Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, the 73-year-old rancher accused of shooting and killing a Mexican man on his Arizona property on Jan. 30, has had his murder charge downgraded.

www.foxnews.com

yes, prosecutors allege he was shot in the back, but so far no evidence has been released to support that statement. That information, along with ballistics and time of death have not been released.

What I find interesting is the fact that Mr Kelly was arrested and charged with 1st degree murder before LE knew that the victim was shot in the back. What's up with that! JMO.

 

[worm]

What I find interesting is the fact that Mr Kelly was arrested and charged with 1st degree murder before LE knew that the victim was shot in the back. What's up with that! JMO.

Maybe the fumbling accounts?

 

[Eli9]

I, like other posters, have many unanswered questions and would like to know if GK's gun was involved in this fatal shooting but what happens if there is no ballistic evidence. This quote was from 2/17 anyone know if the bullet has been found?

"No bullet has been found in order to do testing to determine which gun fired the fatal shot," the motion reads. "It is entirely possible that the person found on Mr. Kelly's property was a victim of other drug traffickers."

Nogales rancher charged with murder fired warning shots in self-defense, attorney says

George Alan Kelly faces first-degree murder charges in the Jan. 30, 2023, shooting death of a Mexican man found on his property.

www.azcentral.com

 

[Deleted member 39678]

Maybe the fumbling accounts?

You mean Mr Kelly's statements? Yes, apparently LE didn't like that and that's possibly why he was arrested. JMO.

 

[Eli9]

How does it hurt. If anything I think it helps by showing there has been a serious problem at the ranch. Many ranchers have been having trouble along the entire border. The activity is costing them a lot of money in damaged fences and list livestock.

I haven't read the book but I can see how it may possibly used against him.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

I haven't read the book but I can see how it may possibly used against him.

It will probably depend on who is on the jury and how they interpret his writings. JMO.

 

[NuttMegg]

I haven't read the book but I can see how it may possibly used against him.

Me too. Especially if the book turns out to have accounts of him and his friend ambushing, sneaking up on immigrants.

 

[Eli9]

It might be this one, from Feb 3, 3 days after the shooting when they had just identified the victim but were withholding his name. The official didn't yet know if it was an entrance or exit wound, he referred to "If they deem it....", ie he didn't know yet.

But 19 days later after the investigation the prosecutor says he was shot in the back.

Victim in Kino Springs shooting identified as Nogales, Sonora man

The Santa Cruz County Sheriff’s Office said Friday that it had tentatively identified the man who was shot and killed Monday in the Kino Springs area as Gabriel Cuen Buitimea,

www.nogalesinternational.com

Do you think that it took 19 days because they were waiting for the coroner to examine the body and make his findings? I can understand maybe LE thinking the entry was in the back as they found the body face down. I guess we have to wait for a better understanding.

 

[NuttMegg]

Do you think that it took 19 days because they were waiting for the coroner to examine the body and make his findings? I can understand maybe LE thinking the entry was in the back as they found the body face down. I guess we have to wait for a better understanding.

Well I don't know if it was 19 days before charging him, or 19 days before the "shooting in the back" determination. I would guess the first, and that all that time was spent on other aspects of the alleged crime. Just from watching CSI, ahem, I think they can tell pretty quickly which is entry, which is exit wound. Let's hope they didn't move the body before searching for the bullet(s). Possibly there was more than one?

 

[citizen_sleuth]

I have no desire to wade into a political debate about immigration, as I think it distracts from the real issue which is ensuring justice is served in Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea's death based on the facts.

Right now, all the information we have is either from the prosecution or the defense, both of which want to present the facts to support their point of view. In my experience, especially in cases where a defendant claims self-defense, the truth generally falls somewhere in the middle. Given that, I think it's important to acknowledge that until all facts and evidence are presented it court, we, as members of the public, only have access to the narratives both sides are presenting.

Based on the information which has been made public, my biggest question is whether or not Kelly was justified in feeling like his life was in immediate danger. In other words, would a reasonable person in Kelly's position utilize deadly force to protect himself and his property?

The defense has argued that Kelly fired warning shots. If that is indeed true, I think it casts some doubt on his self-defense argument. From what I can tell, Arizona does not have an explicit stand-your-ground law, so it will ultimately come down to whether or not a jury believes Kelly acted reasonably under the circumstances. IMO I think the prosecution can argue (based on the information we have so far), as has been done elsewhere in other cases, that Kelly's decision to fire a warning shot effectively means he did not feel his life was in immediate danger.

 

[worm]

I have no desire to wade into a political debate about immigration, as I think it distracts from the real issue which is ensuring justice is served in Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea's death based on the facts.

Right now, all the information we have is either from the prosecution or the defense, both of which want to present the facts to support their point of view. In my experience, especially in cases where a defendant claims self-defense, the truth generally falls somewhere in the middle. Given that, I think it's important to acknowledge that until all facts and evidence are presented it court, we, as members of the public, only have access to the narratives both sides are presenting.

Based on the information which has been made public, my biggest question is whether or not Kelly was justified in feeling like his life was in immediate danger. In other words, would a reasonable person in Kelly's position utilize deadly force to protect himself and his property?

The defense has argued that Kelly fired warning shots. If that is indeed true, I think it casts some doubt on his self-defense argument. From what I can tell, Arizona does not have an explicit stand-your-ground law, so it will ultimately come down to whether or not a jury believes Kelly acted reasonably under the circumstances. IMO I think the prosecution can argue (based on the information we have so far), as has been done elsewhere in other cases, that Kelly's decision to fire a warning shot effectively means he did not feel his life was in immediate danger.

I want to know more to but it’s a use of lethal force case to me, not an immigration issue.