AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[Eli9]

Well I don't know if it was 19 days before charging him, or 19 days before the "shooting in the back" determination. I would guess the first, and that all that time was spent on other aspects of the alleged crime. Just from watching CSI, ahem, I think they can tell pretty quickly which is entry, which is exit wound. Let's hope they didn't move the body before searching for the bullet(s). Possibly there was more than one?

He was arrested on 1/30 the same day of the shooting incident I believe.
And yes, if as reported, there were 9 shells on the porch of his home I hope there have been investigations into where those bullets ended up.

 

[NuttMegg]

I have no desire to wade into a political debate about immigration, as I think it distracts from the real issue which is ensuring justice is served in Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea's death based on the facts.

Right now, all the information we have is either from the prosecution or the defense, both of which want to present the facts to support their point of view. In my experience, especially in cases where a defendant claims self-defense, the truth generally falls somewhere in the middle. Given that, I think it's important to acknowledge that until all facts and evidence are presented it court, we, as members of the public, only have access to the narratives both sides are presenting.

Based on the information which has been made public, my biggest question is whether or not Kelly was justified in feeling like his life was in immediate danger. In other words, would a reasonable person in Kelly's position utilize deadly force to protect himself and his property?

The defense has argued that Kelly fired warning shots. If that is indeed true, I think it casts some doubt on his self-defense argument. From what I can tell, Arizona does not have an explicit stand-your-ground law, so it will ultimately come down to whether or not a jury believes Kelly acted reasonably under the circumstances. IMO I think the prosecution can argue (based on the information we have so far), as has been done elsewhere in other cases, that Kelly's decision to fire a warning shot effectively means he did not feel his life was in immediate danger.

I agree with all that, and I ´personally take everything MSM pumps out with a grain of salt, and I believe that each side is completely biased, they have contrasting goals, but I tend to side with the prosecution in most cases.

I don't know any more than anyone else, but I would like to know
1) was this a real ranch where the owner would have been covering the corners of his property, and if he really had range/ranch animals? If not, he may have normally been at his house, enjoying the view of countryside in his old age, playing gentleman rancher and traffickers would have known that. There was no reason to shoot at him to announce their presence >100 yards away, if they were traffickers or undocumented immigrants there is no way they would announce themselves that way. Defies credibility. ( I know this is a repeat opinion, but it's part of what I will end the day with.)
2) Due in part to his book, and the variations in what he said happened that day, I would bet he was in the habit of "shooting above the heads" of people he saw in the migration corridor just for entertainment, and a "take that" attitude. (Also need to know if they were near the edge of his property, ie like an assumed migration corridor, almost an easement in some places I've learned.)
3) so IMO at this time I think he probably shot the guy by accident, but his own actions in spraying bullets indiscriminately, and the "shot in the back" aspect kind of rub out accident leniency.

JMO!!!!

 

[WingsOverTX]

I have no desire to wade into a political debate about immigration, as I think it distracts from the real issue which is ensuring justice is served in Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea's death based on the facts.

Right now, all the information we have is either from the prosecution or the defense, both of which want to present the facts to support their point of view. In my experience, especially in cases where a defendant claims self-defense, the truth generally falls somewhere in the middle. Given that, I think it's important to acknowledge that until all facts and evidence are presented it court, we, as members of the public, only have access to the narratives both sides are presenting.

Based on the information which has been made public, my biggest question is whether or not Kelly was justified in feeling like his life was in immediate danger. In other words, would a reasonable person in Kelly's position utilize deadly force to protect himself and his property?

The defense has argued that Kelly fired warning shots. If that is indeed true, I think it casts some doubt on his self-defense argument. From what I can tell, Arizona does not have an explicit stand-your-ground law, so it will ultimately come down to whether or not a jury believes Kelly acted reasonably under the circumstances. IMO I think the prosecution can argue (based on the information we have so far), as has been done elsewhere in other cases, that Kelly's decision to fire a warning shot effectively means he did not feel his life was in immediate danger.

Well, his property appears to be right along the border very near a border fence so I doubt this is GK's first encounter with trespass on his land from Mexico.

I also think firing warning shots, if that happened, does not equal some form of premeditation or reveal a murderous state of mind.

If he had handled it all himself & only notified Border Patrol after finding the body, I would have more questions & reservations about his behavior. He was prompt in reporting the incursion on his property.

I see GK as a victim of the prosecutor, who is bent on pinning him with murder regardless of what AZ statutes say & allow, and the federal government, which is supporting the charges despite knowing that border residents face dangers all the time with little protection.

If the dead man is with a cartel, would he spare a life if he had a choice? Very, very doubtful. I say that only to point out that ultimately the border is a war zone. And in a war everyone is at risk - whether law-abiding or not.

Our government should stand on the side of finding the truth & following the laws that apply to this circumstance. I am waiting to see if it can be trusted to do that. So far, I am not impressed by the prosecutor's words or actions.

MOO

 

[WingsOverTX]

I want to know more to but it’s a use of lethal force case to me, not an immigration issue.

And probably a drug cartel issue. Which, as I stated in a different post, makes the border a war zone in many ways IMO.

 

[tara83]

Well, his property appears to be right along the border very near a border fence so I doubt this is GK's first encounter with trespass on his land from Mexico.

I also think firing warning shots, if that happened, does not equal some form of premeditation or reveal a murderous state of mind.

If he had handled it all himself & only notified Border Patrol after finding the body, I would have more questions & reservations about his behavior. He was prompt in reporting the incursion on his property.

I see GK as a victim of the prosecutor, who is bent on pinning him with murder regardless of what AZ statutes say & allow, and the federal government, which is supporting the charges despite knowing that border residents face dangers all the time with little protection.

If the dead man is with a cartel, would he spare a life if he had a choice? Very, very doubtful. I say that only to point out that ultimately the border is a war zone. And in a war everyone is at risk - whether law-abiding or not.

Our government should stand on the side of finding the truth & following the laws that apply to this circumstance. I am waiting to see if it can be trusted to do that. So far, I am not impressed by the prosecutor's words or actions.

MOO

Wow.You have already decided the victim was bad guy involved with a cartel.Based on what?

 

[WingsOverTX]

Wow.You have already decided the victim was bad guy involved with a cartel.Based on what?

No, I haven't decided that. The odds favor it but I said "if." I do believe there was illegal trespass both over a border wall and onto GK's property. Those are both crimes IMO.

We don't know who shot C-B. That is one of the reasons this case is arguable.

 

[NuttMegg]

And probably a drug cartel issue. Which, as I stated in a different post, makes the border a war zone in many ways IMO.

To my mind having a group of 8 people indicates illegal immigration, less of drug cartel actions.

Still I want to know if they were all grown men or if women and children were in the group. And which nationalities were represented.

If this was a "drug cartel" group, they must have been absolute amateurs.

 

[tara83]

No, I haven't decided that. The odds favor it but I said "if." I do believe there was illegal trespass both over a border wall and onto GK's property. Those are both crimes IMO.

We don't know who shot C-B. That is one of the reasons this case is arguable.

No the odds don't favor it at all.Most coming here are not violent criminals.

 

[shotgun09]

I recently watched a recording of the preliminary hearing held yesterday on youtube, which ( IMO ) was very helpful... as much info was given.

There are alot perceivable holes in the state's case, and the defense attorney did a great job with her questioning the few witnesses presented, IMO.

 

[shotgun09]

To my mind having a group of 8 people indicates illegal immigration, less of drug cartel actions.

Still I want to know if they were all grown men or if women and children were in the group. And which nationalities were represented.

During the preliminary hearing yesterday, the defense attorney brought up the fact that according to Border Patrol agents, the area where Mr Kelly's ranch is located is prone to BOTH drug trafficking and illegal entry/coyote crossings. It is conceivable to me at least, that the gun shot heard by Mr Kelly, prior to him grabbing his gun.. was one group attacking someone in another group. Those drug lords do not want anyone stealing their stuff, and they may have been threatened . Just musings...

 

[NuttMegg]

Do we know if his property actually abuts the border? I had the opinion that it did, but the photos on DM show buildings between his ranch house and the border. DM is not clear if they are referring to the ranch being 1.5 miles from the border, or 1.5 miles to the place the victim was killed.

"George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested following the January 30 fatal shooting of Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his ranch in Kino Springs, just a mile and a half north of the US-Mexico border."

Arizona rancher, 73, is charged for shooting dead Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested for fatally shooting Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his Arizona ranch on January 30.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[WingsOverTX]

No the odds don't favor it at all.Most coming here are not violent criminals.

Look at Santa Cruz County & specifically where this property is in Kino Springs. We're not discussing ALL border crossings. We are discussing a specific area of AZ that has a border fence & checkpoints frequently breached by the cartel. The Border Patrol knows it.

Smuggling in Santa Cruz Is Nothing New - Patagonia Regional Times

On February 27, an unfinished tunnel for smuggling drugs connecting Santa Cruz County to the Mexican state of Sonora was discovered by American and Mexican Border Patrol personnel. The secret underground tunnel began inside a drainage system under Nogales, Sonora and ended inside its American...

patagoniaregionaltimes.org

 

[WingsOverTX]

Do we know if his property actually abuts the border? I had the opinion that it did, but the photos on DM show buildings between his ranch house and the border. DM is not clear if they are referring to the ranch being 1.5 miles from the border, or 1.5 miles to the place the victim was killed.

"George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested following the January 30 fatal shooting of Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his ranch in Kino Springs, just a mile and a half north of the US-Mexico border."

Arizona rancher, 73, is charged for shooting dead Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested for fatally shooting Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his Arizona ranch on January 30.

www.dailymail.co.uk

If going north meant crossing GK's property was the only option or just the one this group chose then it might as well be.

It really doesn't matter because once the border fence was breached, they could be detained by BP. If they breached GK's property, where C-B's body was found, that's another illegal incursion.

MOO

 

[tara83]

If going north meant crossing GK's property was the only option or just the one this group chose then it might as well be.

It really doesn't matter because once the border fence was breached, they could be detained by BP. If they breached GK's property, where C-B's body was found, that's another illegal incursion.

MOO

So if someone crosses <modsnip> property it's okay to shoot them in the back?

 

[NuttMegg]

If going north meant crossing GK's property was the only option or just the one this group chose then it might as well be.

It really doesn't matter because once the fence was breached, they could be detained by BP. If they breached GK's property, where C-B's body was found, that's another illegal incursion.

MOO

Oh I don't doubt that they were illegally on Kelly's land, whether for drug smuggling or for smuggling immigrants. (Still want to know if they were along a property line) I would like to know if there was an accepted corridor, maybe zig zagging on various ranches, given the buildings that seem to be between his ranch house and the border per the DM photos I just posted.

The person who was with the victim when he was shot said he was trying to figure out if the firing was coming from government agents, or otherwise. Probably they would be treated differently if it had been BP. Probably (IMO) not shot at.

Although I don't live anywhere near there, I have the idea that there are accepted corridors where neither the ranchers will be threatened, nor the immigrants.

"Neighbor Maria Castillo, has said that migrants who crossed the border are often seen coming and going around the area" and that there were no major problems. Arizona rancher, 73, is charged for shooting dead Mexican migrant

 

[Cool Cats]

Do we know if his property actually abuts the border? I had the opinion that it did, but the photos on DM show buildings between his ranch house and the border. DM is not clear if they are referring to the ranch being 1.5 miles from the border, or 1.5 miles to the place the victim was killed.

"George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested following the January 30 fatal shooting of Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his ranch in Kino Springs, just a mile and a half north of the US-Mexico border."

Arizona rancher, 73, is charged for shooting dead Mexican migrant

George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested for fatally shooting Gabriel Cuen-Butimea, 48, on his Arizona ranch on January 30.

www.dailymail.co.uk

His property does not touch the border. His property is in Kino Springs and Kino Springs doesn't touch the border. This map shows it really clear. His ranch is only 1.5 miles from the border.

https://www.mapquest.com/us/arizona/kino-springs-az-282087901

Kino Springs, Arizona - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[NuttMegg]

His property does not touch the border. His property is in Kino Springs which is 1.5 miles north of the Mexico border.

https://www.mapquest.com/us/arizona/kino-springs-az-282087901

Kino Springs, Arizona - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Thanks so much.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

During the preliminary hearing yesterday, the defense attorney brought up the fact that according to Border Patrol agents, the area where Mr Kelly's ranch is located is prone to BOTH drug trafficking and illegal entry/coyote crossings. It is conceivable to me at least, that the gun shot heard by Mr Kelly, prior to him grabbing his gun.. was one group attacking someone in another group. Those drug lords do not want anyone stealing their stuff, and they may have been threatened . Just musings...

I think this case will not be a self defense case. I think it will hinge on who actually shot the victim. With no bullet recovered to tie to Mr Kelly's gun it leaves it open as to who fired the shot. JMO.

 

[Deleted member 39678]

His property does not touch the border. His property is in Kino Springs and Kino Springs doesn't touch the border. This map shows it really clear. His ranch is only 1.5 miles from the border.

https://www.mapquest.com/us/arizona/kino-springs-az-282087901

Kino Springs, Arizona - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

That looks like it's right on the border to me.

 

[Cool Cats]

That looks like it's right on the border to me.

His ranch doesn't touch the border which is the point. Kino Springs does not touch the border, it is not a border town. The only border town in that area is Nogales and Nogales is a little farther south than Kino Springs.