AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

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  • #241
I don't know much about this case, but aren't people allowed to protect their property from trespass? Stand your ground? Surprised he was even arrested.
Arizona does not have an explicitly titled “stand your ground” law. However, Arizona laws do allow people to defend themselves.

But even if AZ had a "stand your ground law" what happened on this rancher's property does not meet the definition of it.
 
  • #242
 
  • #243
Reasonable fear for his life may not be hard for Mr. Kelly to argue. The problem is so bad that the National Park Service issued a warning. Imagine living there 24/7 with no LE nearby.

Visitors should be aware that drug smuggling and illegal immigration occur in this area due to the proximity to the international border.

 
  • #244
Reasonable fear for his life may not be hard for Mr. Kelly to argue. The problem is so bad that the National Park Service issued a warning. Imagine living there 24/7 with no LE nearby.

Visitors should be aware that drug smuggling and illegal immigration occur in this area due to the proximity to the international border.


I'm not so certain it's going to be that easy to argue given the statement that one had a gun aimed at him.

What with them/one of them (allegedly) having a gun aimed at him ... and he fired a shot over their heads.

That is counter-intuitive. If a gun is aimed at you and you have 'reasonable' (!! A gun IS aimed at him!!) fear for your life - you do not fire a warning shot over the gunman's head; you shoot the gunman.

What he has alleged is furthest-from-normal way to survive on a two-way range. And, if true, he's lucky his decision to shoot 'over their heads' didn't cost him his own life (if they actually were armed). Something is off.
 
  • #245
The border has sure changed in the last 40 years. I remember going to Nogales, taking the train to Central Mexico. It didn't seem unsafe at all. People would go back and forth, drive to Tucson. Everything changes.
 
  • #246
H
I'm not so certain it's going to be that easy to argue given the statement that one had a gun aimed at him.

What with them/one of them (allegedly) having a gun aimed at him ... and he fired a shot over their heads.

That is counter-intuitive. If a gun is aimed at you and you have 'reasonable' (!! A gun IS aimed at him!!) fear for your life - you do not fire a warning shot over the gunman's head; you shoot the gunman.

What he has alleged is furthest-from-normal way to survive on a two-way range. And, if true, he's lucky his decision to shoot 'over their heads' didn't cost him his own life (if they actually were armed). Something is off.
He even said he knew who the "leader" apparently was. And also told BP that they were too far away to see whether they had weapons. Even though his atty denies he said that, I will guess that it is documented by an official who will testify to that in court. Imo he's an accident frantically manufacturing a good reason for what he did. Meanwhile, a man was shot in the back nearly a football field from where 9 casings were found by his house.
 
  • #247
Help me out please!

SteveS in his reply to shotgun...says in his second paragraph that the witness says they came within 10 FEET of the house, and SteveS then says that based on this distance, they must have been coming at him toward his house, which he rightly says would feel like a threat.
....
Was this a typo?

Yes it was a (mental) typo. My apologies. I should have written (and meant to say) 10 yards.

But 10 yards or 10 feet, my point is still the same, which is that there was no reason whatsoever for these people who have trespassed on Kelly's land without permission, to then go way up towards his house rather than stay far far away from it. If you live in a huge footprint like that (in broad numbers, 1000 yards x 1000 yards), like Kelly does, with no one else around (and no one to help him if he's put in distress), you would have mental spacial "boundaries" creating for you a sort of safety cushion from attack - a large uninhabited space giving you a sense of safety.

My point was that if you invade a person's safety cushion, without warning, without invitation, without it being someone you know well, imo you are putting yourself in peril at your own risk. There was no good reason for these people trying to cross his land (after having scaled his fence, and without his permission) to go anywhere remotely near his house - yet they did.
 
  • #248
I don't know much about this case, but aren't people allowed to protect their property from trespass? Stand your ground? Surprised he was even arrested.
The person who was killed was found unarmed, the 73 year old man admitted to shooting towards them at over 300ft away. The victim was shot in the back

There is no stand your ground here.
 
  • #249
H

He even said he knew who the "leader" apparently was. And also told BP that they were too far away to see whether they had weapons. Even though his atty denies he said that, I will guess that it is documented by an official who will testify to that in court. Imo he's an accident frantically manufacturing a good reason for what he did. Meanwhile, a man was shot in the back nearly a football field from where 9 casings were found by his house.
If the circumstances were reversed here & GK was dead with C-B being held on 2nd degree murder charges would C-B still be the victim if "he was crossing the border in search of a better life"? What if C-B were a drug runner & GK just collateral damage in a cartel war.

Respectfully, you don't even live in U.S. or in a border state in the U.S. How can you be so sure about everyone involved when there hasn't even been a trial?

JMO
 
  • #250
Yes it was a (mental) typo. My apologies. I should have written (and meant to say) 10 yards.

But 10 yards or 10 feet, my point is still the same, which is that there was no reason whatsoever for these people who have trespassed on Kelly's land without permission, to then go way up towards his house rather than stay far far away from it. If you live in a huge footprint like that (in broad numbers, 1000 yards x 1000 yards), like Kelly does, with no one else around (and no one to help him if he's put in distress), you would have mental spacial "boundaries" creating for you a sort of safety cushion from attack - a large uninhabited space giving you a sense of safety.

My point was that if you invade a person's safety cushion, without warning, without invitation, without it being someone you know well, imo you are putting yourself in peril at your own risk. There was no good reason for these people trying to cross his land (after having scaled his fence, and without his permission) to go anywhere remotely near his house - yet they did.

The victim was nowhere near his house.
 
  • #251
Arizona does not have an explicitly titled “stand your ground” law. However, Arizona laws do allow people to defend themselves.

But even if AZ had a "stand your ground law" what happened on this rancher's property does not meet the definition of it.
In your opinion?
 
  • #252
If the circumstances were reversed here & GK was dead with C-B being held on 2nd degree murder charges would C-B still be the victim if "he was crossing the border in search of a better life"? What if C-B were a drug runner & GK just collateral damage in a cartel war.

Respectfully, you don't even live in U.S. or in a border state in the U.S. How can you be so sure about everyone involved when there hasn't even been a trial?

JMO
im sorry but this madeup scenario has no bearing on the facts
 
  • #253
In your opinion?
No. It is the law in AZ.


Arizona does not have a specific stand-your-ground law. However, that does not mean that self-defense can’t be justified according to Arizona law.

According to Arizona Revised Statute (ARS) 13-404, self-defense is justified if you reasonably believe that using physical force against an attacker is immediately necessary for your protection. However, it is only justified if the attacker is using or attempting to use physical force against you.

Self-defense is not justified when:


  • There is no longer an immediate threat
  • You use greater force against the attacker than was used against you (such as killing someone for slapping you)
  • Someone only verbally provokes you (yells or uses curse words).
  • You resist an arrest that you know, or should reasonably know, is being made by a peace officer or by someone acting in the peace officer’s presence under their instruction. Self-defense could be justified if the peace officer uses physical force beyond what the law allows.
  • You provoke the attacker’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical force. Self-defense may be justified in this case if all of the following conditions are met:
    • You withdraw from the situation or clearly communicate your intent to withdraw
    • You reasonably believe that you cannot safely withdraw
    • And the attacker continues to use or attempts to use unlawful physical force against you
 
  • #254
  • #255
  • #256
No. It is the law in AZ.


Arizona does not have a specific stand-your-ground law. However, that does not mean that self-defense can’t be justified according to Arizona law.

According to Arizona Revised Statute (ARS) 13-404, self-defense is justified if you reasonably believe that using physical force against an attacker is immediately necessary for your protection. However, it is only justified if the attacker is using or attempting to use physical force against you.

Self-defense is not justified when:


  • There is no longer an immediate threat
  • You use greater force against the attacker than was used against you (such as killing someone for slapping you)
  • Someone only verbally provokes you (yells or uses curse words).
  • You resist an arrest that you know, or should reasonably know, is being made by a peace officer or by someone acting in the peace officer’s presence under their instruction. Self-defense could be justified if the peace officer uses physical force beyond what the law allows.
  • You provoke the attacker’s use or attempted use of unlawful physical force. Self-defense may be justified in this case if all of the following conditions are met:
    • You withdraw from the situation or clearly communicate your intent to withdraw
    • You reasonably believe that you cannot safely withdraw
    • And the attacker continues to use or attempts to use unlawful physical force against you
Once again, I would respectfully suggest that unless you are personally adjudicating the case, you have stated an informed opinion only.
 
  • #257
Once again, I would respectfully suggest that unless you are personally adjudicating the case, you have stated an informed opinion only.
They are literally quoting the law.
What???
 
  • #258
rsbm bbm

The autopsy results are available now?

Link, please.
Of course there is at least a preliminary autopsy or the DA wouldn't put it on the record.


“It’s the state’s position that Mr. Kelly shot an unarmed man in the back in an unprovoked attack as he ran for his life with no warning, and the victim was more than 100 yards from the defendant’s residence when he was shot and killed,” prosecutor Kimberly Hunley said at a Wednesday hearing in the case.
 
  • #259

“It’s the state’s position that Mr. Kelly shot an unarmed man in the back in an unprovoked attack as he ran for his life with no warning, and the victim was more than 100 yards from the defendant’s residence when he was shot and killed,” prosecutor Kimberly Hunley said at a Wednesday hearing in the case.
The prosecutor wouldnt say that TO A JUDGE if it wasnt true, had backup
 
  • #260
This is very similar to Armon Arbery and I rightfully and morally believe it will end the same way

Im sorry, you cannot shoot someone who isnt a threat and who is unarmed, from over 300ft away, in the back, just because you dont like their assumed background.
 
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