AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[wary]

The path of the bullet through the victims body is interesting. Entered low in the back and exited in the opposite side, upper chest.

I wonder if it's possible to use that to determine the location of the shooter? JMO.

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

That’s thought-provoking. Does that trajectory fit with the ‘failed warning shot from GK’ scenario? I’d think it fit more with one of his cohorts shooting him. Let’s call that a possible accident, too.

 

[Telltale]

Without having the bullet things could get tricky. Depending heavily on just how much can be determined from the wound, a shot that entered the body from the lower back, only to have a sharp trajectory up to the upper chest... I don't discount that there it may be a reasonable explaination for that occuring from the distance and position the suspect was in. Perhaps from leaning forward while sprinting or ricochet off a rib for example.

However it occured to me, it could also be explained another way. If some of the group was armed. A person immediately behind the victim who had a weapon could cause such a an injury by accidentally letting off a shot while running. It would explain the angle and point of entry to exit, though hopefully in such an instance there would be gunshot residue on the victims clothing (and such a thing was tested.)

This sort of thing is pure speculation though, until more of the ballistics, physics and geography/positions of people during the situation are revealed.

Edit: if it does end up determined the suspect shot him, I am struggling to see how 'warning shots aimed over the head' end up entering in such a low position on the victims body and exiting to high. I guess not impossible with ricochets unknown geography etc, but it makes it more improbable. At least on what we know currently.

 

[acutename]

I sure would like to see a computer generated animation of just how that shot could travel in that slanted upward direction. Where would the shooter be positioned, and how? And, where would Mr Kelly have to be positioned for that shot to have happened in that way? Certainly not on his porch, where all the casings were found. Paging Grey Hughes!!!

would have to be shooting upward.... is his house in a depression? Also not sure if the shot man could have been twisted at the torso- looking over his shoulder- and then maybe the entrance/exit wounds could be in that configuration. IMO.

<modsnip - not an approved source>

this picture makes it look suburban from the front but isolated

Arizona rancher charged with murder for shooting Mexican national 150ft from US border

An Arizona cattle rancher living near the US border with Mexico has been charged with first-degree murder in the fatal shooting of a man believed to be a Mexican citizen.

nypost.com

 

[pentimento]

I don't know if it has been mentioned, but I wonder if there are any earwitnesses to the gunfire, like neighbors. It could establish whether or not there was gunfire prior to or after Kelly's "warning shots."

Also, where were the dogs during all this commotion? Even if I held mine back, she would immediately go to the scene of where some intruder had been once I let her loose, and dogs have got an incredible sense of smell.

 

[Vern]

I sure would like to see a computer generated animation of just how that shot could travel in that slanted upward direction. Where would the shooter be positioned, and how? And, where would Mr Kelly have to be positioned for that shot to have happened in that way? Certainly not on his porch, where all the casings were found. Paging Grey Hughes!!!

Could be ... prone position.

 

[Laughing]

Could be ... prone position.

Was that firing position stated by witnesses?

The implication is that the 72 year old rancher stepped off the porch, laid down, assumed prone firing position, located the deceased, then fired?

Were Mr. Kelly's clothes dusty/sandy? Elbow of supporting hand, likely the left?

Bruising to Mr. Kelly's hip bones, knees; rib bruises or soreness?

Did the location of the casings, foot prints, scuff marks suggest prone firing to the LE personnel collecting the shell casings?

The described projectile path suggests a much closer shooter to me.

Is the complete autopsy report available?

 

[shotgun09]

Could be ... prone position.

Kelly is 73! Not 33. I'm not so sure, but going by the photo of him floating around, and the few video snippets seen of him moving about, that he could successfully maneuver himself to a prone position with a rifle and shoot. I noticed that he had a rough slow go of getting up to stand from sitting in court, during an " all rise" moment.

Nah....it wasn't Mr Kelly who was prone. Maybe someone else?

 

[Erutan]

I would like to hear from the people who were with the deceased.

 

[SteveS]

Without having the bullet things could get tricky. Depending heavily on just how much can be determined from the wound, a shot that entered the body from the lower back, only to have a sharp trajectory up to the upper chest... I don't discount that there it may be a reasonable explaination for that occuring from the distance and position the suspect was in. Perhaps from leaning forward while sprinting or ricochet off a rib for example.

However it occured to me, it could also be explained another way. If some of the group was armed. A person immediately behind the victim who had a weapon could cause such a an injury by accidentally letting off a shot while running. It would explain the angle and point of entry to exit, though hopefully in such an instance there would be gunshot residue on the victims clothing (and such a thing was tested.)

This sort of thing is pure speculation though, until more of the ballistics, physics and geography/positions of people during the situation are revealed.

Edit: if it does end up determined the suspect shot him, I am struggling to see how 'warning shots aimed over the head' end up entering in such a low position on the victims body and exiting to high. I guess not impossible with ricochets unknown geography etc, but it makes it more improbable. At least on what we know currently.

Your questions and ideas are good fodder for thought. There are a lot of unexplained issues in any scenario we've been given.

I would add one more, that I'm wondering if it's even being asked -- is there a "line of sight" from where Kelly was shooting, to where the man was found dead with a bullet wound? With all the trees surrounding the house and then scattered here and there, I'm thinking it's an important issue to make LE show that Kelly could have seen the man to be shooting at him.

From where he was, was such a targeted shot even possible? Because if the answer is no, then it pushes us away from any kind of intentionality of hitting someone. Or maybe to it being a bullet from elsewhere.

 

[shotgun09]

Your questions and ideas are good fodder for thought. There are a lot of unexplained issues in any scenario we've been given.

I would add one more, that I'm wondering if it's even being asked -- is there a "line of sight" from where Kelly was shooting, to where the man was found dead with a bullet wound? With all the trees surrounding the house and then scattered here and there, I'm thinking it's an important issue to make LE show that Kelly could have seen the man to be shooting at him.

From where he was, was such a targeted shot even possible? Because if the answer is no, then it pushes us away from any kind of intentionality of hitting someone. Or maybe to it being a bullet from elsewhere.

The line of sight was discussed briefly in court on Friday. The defense attorney was asking an LE officer on the stand how difficult of a shot that would be, from the area discussed. The local mesquite trees were brought up, and it was stated there were quite a few in the brush/desert area where the victim was found. When asked about the difficulty of shooting through that type of vegetation specifically, the officer would not give a direct answer. He stated something like " It depends how good of a shot you are". He did agree, however that the area was thick and brambly, and the distance was 100-150 yards.

 

[evilwise]

What @Vern is suggesting is that the victim may have been prone, on his stomach. I was visualizing him climbing through brush or over a fence but it's easy for a shot to enter through the lower back and exit through the upper chest so long as the target's torso is mostly horizontal and facing away from the shooter.

 

[Cool Cats]

I would like to hear from the people who were with the deceased.

One testified at the preliminary hearing, gave alot of detail. Others gave statements to LE.

 

[WingsOverTX]

I would like to hear from the people who were with the deceased.

I'm sure both the prosecution & defense would, too. I'm surprised they located one who has given testimony. I'm sure they ran like jackrabbits.

BP says they found no one but it's 169.5 acres of mostly scrub & desert so a bit challenging to investigate completely & there's a fairly quick exit into Mexico about a half mile away IIRC.

So yes, that would be ideal but IMO unlikely. One reason why solving anything at the border is so frustrating. Anonymity is your best friend there.

JMO

 

[WingsOverTX]

They testified at the preliminary hearing.

Do you have a link? There was more than one?
Thanks much.

 

[pentimento]

I would like to hear from the people who were with the deceased.

Yes, they testified that Kelly came after them through the brush, which could fit with the nature of the fatal wound, IMO.

 

[shotgun09]

They testified at the preliminary hearing.

And only two of the 7-8-9 of them testified. The others are mysteriously unavailable.

 

[pentimento]

And only two of the 7-8-9 of them testified. The others are mysteriously unavailable.

Could be afraid, or not local. IMO.

 

[Lilibet]

Yes it was a (mental) typo. My apologies. I should have written (and meant to say) 10 yards.

But 10 yards or 10 feet, my point is still the same, which is that there was no reason whatsoever for these people who have trespassed on Kelly's land without permission, to then go way up towards his house rather than stay far far away from it. If you live in a huge footprint like that (in broad numbers, 1000 yards x 1000 yards), like Kelly does, with no one else around (and no one to help him if he's put in distress), you would have mental spacial "boundaries" creating for you a sort of safety cushion from attack - a large uninhabited space giving you a sense of safety.

My point was that if you invade a person's safety cushion, without warning, without invitation, without it being someone you know well, imo you are putting yourself in peril at your own risk. There was no good reason for these people trying to cross his land (after having scaled his fence, and without his permission) to go anywhere remotely near his house - yet they did.

Thanks for clearing that distance discrepancy up @SteveS. I don’t disagree at all that these men were on GK’s property illegally. And it was a risk. That’s a given. But can we imagine a scenario in which there is any chance at all that they did not know they were so close to his house until they saw it? Did they even know there was a house on the property (150+acres). Is there a chance the shot he says was fired happened before they saw his house? His house looks really close to the northern border of his property to me. That doesn’t excuse their illegally being on his property, but it’s a possible explanation for their proximity to Kelly’s house. I doubt they were looking to be seen and confronted. And at this point, with the facts we have, they did not commit a capital offense.

Having lived in a very dangerous part of Northern CA at one time (and leaving when it became untenable), I understand the fear, as I mentioned in an earlier post. And it appears from the real estate ad posted earlier that the Kelly’s wanted to leave. It’s been bad there for years. They had owned their land since the mid-90’s and built their house in 2006 as stated in early articles, so they chose to live there heading into their senior years. It’s a tragedy that they didn’t leave before this event. A man is dead, and GK’s life won’t ever be the same.
JMO

 

[Cool Cats]

Do you have a link? There was more than one?
Thanks much.

One who was with the victim testified at the hearing, total of 4 witnesses for the prosecution.

Kimberly Hunley, chief deputy Santa Cruz County attorney, called four witnesses to testify during the hearing in order to provide probable cause to move the case to trial.

MSN

 

[Telltale]

Climbing over things or the suspect taking some sort of covered lower position could explain the wound, I'd not thought of that.

Though the prosecution and witnesses makes no mention of scrambling over obstacles, only of them running away.

Even with a low position, there is still that apparent sharply angled trajectory. That I think would still need a further explanation if he was as far away as stated when the bullets were fired. - I wonder, could it be that he fired at their feet rather than over their heads? A bullet deflecting off of something on the ground and up into the victim could also explain that angle. Also a far more reckless place to aim, so worth lying about.



There seems to be some confusion on exactly where he was. The LE all seem to agree the shots were fired from near his porch and travelled a ,80-100 yard distance through a wooded area. The witnesses mention him coming out of the bushes and being something like 10ft away.

So did they approach far closer to the house than it seems? Was he not by the porch when they first encountered him or when the bullets were fired? Did he take potshots at a distant group or did they get relatively close as he first stated? Did the victim continue to run some distance before he fell?

I would really love to see photos of this location and the relative positions of the people involved. There is far too much up in the air to draw any real conclusions.