AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

[SteveS]

It was too far away, he even told le that they were too far away to see if they were armed.

No he did not. That claim has been made but was staunchly denied by Kelly/his attorney, who have consistently said he COULD see and they were armed.

‘Innocent’ Arizona rancher files full-throated defense after Mexican national shot dead on property

The Arizona husband, father, and grandfather who was charged with murdering a Mexican national on his ranch has filed a full-throated defense.

lawandcrime.com

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

 

[NuttMegg]

You are theorizing more "ranch inhabitants" and ignoring the elephant in the room, which is that we already KNOW there were quite a few others in the mix that day (and who seemingly have been ignored, rather than questioned). There were reportedly 7-8-9 trespassers that day invading Kelly's property that we have been told of (and could have been others who went under the radar). We only have two they have really talked to. At one point, they had a couple more but just sent them on their way instead of finding out what they knew.

There is no dispute that those extra trespassers were there, but the witnesses speak of being in a group of 2-3. Who were all the others, and what was THEIR story? Which of them carried guns for protection or other plans? Which were the type who likely had nefarious purposes? Who else might have been lurking out of sight?

But your question does highlight an important point -- we don't even know for sure who shot this guy. Nor if such a shot was even possible (or could have been intentional as an attempt to hit someone) when shooting from where Kelly was.

We don't know that ANY of them had guns.

We don't know if anyone was lurking.

We don't even know if 5 of the people crossing the property were kids in pokemon t shirts.

Point is, neither did Kelly.

The radio could have been planted on the victim, just as easily as his supposed gun could have been taken away.

My point is that no, imo, there is not any "very strong possibility" that there were warring factions of drug cartels in a shootout on this property right next to town. In broad day light, Aiming rifles at the accused murderer, his having to "return fire" at people who were too far away to determine if they were armed.

Look, the guy blew it, imo, an accident provoked by his rage at his failed business, maybe aging problems, and his feelings for immigrants as expressed in his own book.

But he will get off for sure.

Imo

 

[NuttMegg]

No he did not. That claim has been made but was staunchly denied by Kelly/his attorney, who have consistently said he COULD see and they were armed.

‘Innocent’ Arizona rancher files full-throated defense after Mexican national shot dead on property

The Arizona husband, father, and grandfather who was charged with murdering a Mexican national on his ranch has filed a full-throated defense.

lawandcrime.com

Case of Nogales rancher charged with murder moves to trial after witness dramatically details shooting

Witness testimony revealed new details about the case of George Alan Kelly, the Nogales rancher accused of murder.

www.azcentral.com

Sure he did, according to the prosecuter, she will undoubtedly have an le official or employee swear to it in court. The people were too far away to see if they were armed. Then the jury can decide which of his stories to believe, or whether to believe the person who testifies.

The defense attorney always has far more leeway to spread embroidered excuses to the press. Just look at any of the pre-trial red herrings spread by defense in previous cases. In this case she's just firing across the bow, but it will end up being the word of an accused murderer over that of whomever in le took the call.

Imo

 

[cvaldez1975]

Migrant shot dead by rancher was cartel drug smuggler, says BP chief

George Alan Kelly, 73, was arrested on charges of first degree murder for shooting Gabriel Cuen-Butimea on January 30 at his home.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I wonder if one of the group of migrants panicked when Kelly fired the warning shots and inadvertently shot C-B in the back. JMO.

while he may have been, this DK article has misleading title. the FORMER bp chief was saying the area is a hot bed for smuggling and that he was "likely" a smuggler. maybe, but it is speculation not fact.

 

[PriorTheCreator]

Hey so what if ,
That radio was like a scanner ,tuned into say the 911 dispatch ...and the other seven guys circled back to get a back pack ..and a 1700-5000 dollar gun . I am undocumented and guy is dead....I am not leaving money for immigration , I am taking dudes gun . Plus 8 people facing charges or I shoot CB in the back ,because I know the cops are coming and i got to slow them down.
<modsnip>

Sounds like a story that was made up based on no facts

 

[NuttMegg]

while he may have been, this DK article has misleading title. the FORMER bp chief was saying the area is a hot bed for smuggling and that he was "likely" a smuggler. maybe, but it is speculation not fact.

We all know the media will pump it up, regardless of facts.

 

[SteveS]

We don't know that ANY of them had guns.

We don't know if anyone was lurking.

We don't even know if 5 of the people crossing the property were kids in pokemon t shirts.

Correct. And we don't know if those other people did, either!! That's my point -- before we try to speculate MORE people into the mix, and make up ideas on people no one even says exist, I'm think we should start by pursuing and examining the people we KNOW already were there. If we want to know where extra shots may have come from, that's the place to start looking.

And so far, it doesn't seem like that's happening.

 

[PriorTheCreator]

Similar to the "witness' ( other victim) who claimed via LE yesterday, about the distance between Kelly's and the deceased. According to the states' witness, Kelly was within 10 yards of the victim when he shot GC-B. Next to impossible, per the defense, being that the body was 100-150 yards away from the home, and 9 shell casings were all found near the porch area of the ranch. Zero casings were found near the victim in the field. It seems like the witness statements have a bit of firming up to do as well. MOO

Do you have a link to back up the 10 feet claim

 

[cvaldez1975]

@pentimento , iirc a Border Patrol officer told the court that the deceased was involved in drug smuggling.

To me, that has more weight than the Daily Mail.

At any rate, repeating a crime does not make each occurance less of a crime -- even when the crime is crossing a border somewhere other than an established checkpoint.

that DM article said a former BP agent said he wass LIKELY smuggling. i havent seen that he was confirmed as such

 

[SteveS]

Sure he did, according to the prosecuter, she will undoubtedly have an le official or employee swear to it in court. The people were too far away to see if they were armed.

So the STATE witness is going to come in and contradict his own testimony under oath? 10 yards is too far away to see such a thing? Because, that the distance the STATE witness gave, and testified in court under oath.

FACTUALLY, according to the testimony of both Kelly AND the state witness, he wasn't too far away to see.

 

[PriorTheCreator]

Correct. And we don't know if those other people did, either!! That's my point -- before we try to speculate MORE people into the mix, and make up ideas on people no one even says exist, I'm think we should start by pursuing and examining the people we KNOW already were there. If we want to know where extra shots may have come from, that's the place to start looking.

And so far, it doesn't seem like that's happening.

We know:
- Kelly admitted to shooting in their direction from 150yards away
- Kelly has given multiple conflicting stories and has been deemed less reliable by LE.
- Witnesses have consistant stories and LE has said they are credible
- The victim was shot in the back
- The victim was unarmed
- Being over football field's length away from the property, he was not an immediate danger to Kelly.
- This clearly doesnt qualify as 'Stand Your Ground' by definition

Any assumption beyond this is a "What if" with no factual connection. There is alot of stereotypes, biases and victim blaming going around, which is extremely unfortunate and disturbing. IMO there seems to be alot of elaborate situations that are not based on hard facts, being created as a way to justify a man being shot to death.



Hard facts outweigh anecdotal opinions.

Mexican migrant recounts shooting involving Arizona rancher

A Mexican man has testified about the moment when a fellow migrant was shot and killed on an Arizona ranch as they illegally crossed the U.S.-Mexico border.

www.latimes.com

 

[PriorTheCreator]

So the STATE witness is going to come in and contradict his own testimony under oath? 10 yards is too far away to see such a thing? Because, that the distance the STATE witness gave, and testified in court under oath.

FACTUALLY, according to the testimony of both Kelly AND the state witness, he wasn't too far away to see.

Can you link to this claim?

 

[BayouBelle_LA]

We don't know that ANY of them had guns.

We don't know if anyone was lurking.

We don't even know if 5 of the people crossing the property were kids in pokemon t shirts.

Point is, neither did Kelly.

The radio could have been planted on the victim, just as easily as his supposed gun could have been taken away.

My point is that no, imo, there is not any "very strong possibility" that there were warring factions of drug cartels in a shootout on this property right next to town. In broad day light, Aiming rifles at the accused murderer, his having to "return fire" at people who were too far away to determine if they were armed.

Look, the guy blew it, imo, an accident provoked by his rage at his failed business, maybe aging problems, and his feelings for immigrants as expressed in his own book.

But he will get off for sure.

Imo

We don’t know what we don’t know.

We do know what has been related to us by the media - the alleged words of Mr. Kelly and the witnesses as well as others including a border patrol agent. Even with that information, we don’t know how accurate and true any of it is. It may come down to credibility and the physical evidence.

I don’t think the border patrol agent has a reason to lie and he said this area is a known cartel crossing. We know a radio was found, that could mean something more organized such as human trafficking and cartel activity. That is just my opinion.

The witnesses haven’t said there were children in the group. I see no reason for them to leave that out if it were true.

I like to hypothesize with what I know and leave room to change my mind.

 

[NuttMegg]

"Details on the shooting are very limited since it is an on-going investigation. However, people who live close say they are shocked on what took place late Monday, January 30th, evening.

Maria Castillo has been living on Kino Springs and West Sagebrush Road for the past ten years.

“I drive through here everyday,” Castillo says. “Late, early and never encountered anybody, I feel very safe living here in the area.”


She says it’s not unusual to see people who have crossed the border coming and going around the area but she says none have caused any major issues.

That’s why it came as a shock when Castillo heard about 73-year-old George Allen Kelly allegedly shooting and killing a man.".

Residents speak out after shooting in Nogales neighborhood

Neighbors speak out after shooting in Santa Cruz County

www.kold.com

 

[PriorTheCreator]

We don’t know what we don’t know.

We do know what has been related to us by the media - the alleged words of Mr. Kelly and the witnesses as well as others including a border patrol agent. Even with that information, we don’t know how accurate and true any of it is. It may come down to credibility and the physical evidence.

I don’t think the border patrol agent has a reason to lie and he said this area is a known cartel crossing. We know a radio was found, that could mean something more organized such as human trafficking and cartel activity. That is just my opinion.

The witnesses haven’t said there were children in the group. I see no reason for them to leave that out if it were true.

I like to hypothesize with what I know and leave room to change my mind.

<modsnip>

You are also right that it might come down to credibility and physical evidence. And right now... thats not in Kelly's favor

 

[SteveS]

We know:
- Kelly admitted to shooting in their direction from 150yards away
- Kelly has given multiple conflicting stories and has been deemed less reliable by LE.
- Witnesses have consistant stories and LE has said they are credible
- The victim was shot in the back
- The victim was unarmed
- Being over football field's length away from the property, he was not an immediate danger to Kelly.
- This clearly doesnt qualify as 'Stand Your Ground' by definition

Some of what you say is true. Some of what you say is false. A different perspective with the facts.

1 Kelly did admit to firing warning shots. He did NOT ever say he fired a shot at them, however. It's plausible that he was trying to scare them away from his house WITHOUT any possibility of shooting anyone, and acted in what he thought was a suitable way to do that.
2 We do have the SWORN testimony of a state witness that, rather than staying way far away from Kelly's house, they went right up at it. 10 yards. That doesn't feel like people trying to be unseen, or trying to avoid confrontation, given the massive space of the property and plenty of ways to stay far far away.
3 It is true that the prosecutor has believed the story of the illegal immigrants, and not Kelly's. (Their stories have been shifting too, however. And we don't even have the story of the others there that day.)
4 Who LE has chosen to believe doesn't tell us who is telling the truth, however. Those are things that possibly can be resolved by investigation (which has been sparse to this point), and that get decided by a jury if necessary.
5 We don't know if the victim was armed or not. All we know is that when he was found, there was no weapon with him. But all the others -- including the witnesses -- left the scene after the shooting, and we have no way of knowing what any or all of them took with them when they went.
6 You assume Kelly shot the guy. We don't even know for sure that happened
7 You assume Kelly was TRYING to shoot the guy, and knew he was there. We don't know that either. Could he even see the guy from where he was shooting?
8 We do know Kelly was shooting from point A, and the dead man was found at point B, and they were 100 yards apart more or less (we've heard reports stating from as few as 80, to as many as 150).
9 If Kelly was shooting to try to fend off different invaders much closer, and this other illegal trespasser was hit by an unintentional stray bullet, it could certainly qualify as defending his homestead and person. They had invaded his homestead before any of this happened, and it was the dead guy who was the instigator and put himself in harm's way by illegally invading someone else's homestead (with others doing the same).
10 We do know who Kelly was, and his history. He has a history of being a law-abiding citizen, rather than someone who goes around trying to shoot people indiscriminately. That matters in trying to decipher the truth IMO.

 

[PriorTheCreator]

Some of what you say is true. Some of what you say is false. A different perspective with the facts.

1 Kelly did admit to firing warning shots. He did NOT ever say he fired a shot at them, however. It's plausible that he was trying to scare them away from his house WITHOUT any possibility of shooting anyone, and acted in what he thought was a suitable way to do that.
2 It is true that the prosecutor has believed the story of the illegal immigrants, and not Kelly's. (Their stories have been shifting too, however. And we don't even have the story of the others there that day.)
3 Who LE has chosen to believe doesn't tell us who is telling the truth, however. Those are things that possibly can be resolved by investigation (which has been sparse to this point), and that get decided by a jury if necessary.
4 We don't know if the victim was armed or not. All we know is that when he was found, there was no weapon with him. But all the others -- including the witnesses -- left the scene after the shooting, and we have no way of knowing what any or all of them took with them when they went.
5 You assume Kelly shot the guy. We don't even know for sure that happened.
6 You assume Kelly was TRYING to shoot the guy, and knew he was there. We don't know that either. Could he even see the guy from where he was shooting?
7 We do know Kelly was shooting from point A, and the dead man was found at point B, and they were 100 yards apart more or less (we've heard reports stating from as few as 80, to as many as 150).
8 If Kelly was shooting to try to fend off different invaders much closer, and this other illegal trespasser was hit by an unintentional stray bullet, it could certainly qualify as defending his homestead and person. They had invaded his homestead before any of this happened, and it was the dead guy who was the instigator and put himself in harm's way by illegally invading someone else's homestead (with others doing the same).
9 We do know who Kelly was, and his history. He has a history of being a law-abiding citizen, rather than someone who goes around trying to shoot people indiscriminately. That matters in trying to decipher the truth IMO.

No.
it is a fact, the victims body was found unarmed.
<modsnip>

Facts matter

 

[PriorTheCreator]

So the STATE witness is going to come in and contradict his own testimony under oath? 10 yards is too far away to see such a thing? Because, that the distance the STATE witness gave, and testified in court under oath.

FACTUALLY, according to the testimony of both Kelly AND the state witness, he wasn't too far away to see.

Can you link to this 10yards claim?

 

[cvaldez1975]

"A sheriff’s deputy testified that investigators recovered nine shell casings near Kelly’s south-facing back porch."

Judge OK's Arizona rancher trial in Mexican migrant killing

A judge has ruled that an Arizona rancher accused of shooting at a group of migrants on his property and killing a man will face trial on second-degree murder and aggravated assault charges.

apnews.com

this is interesting, from the link - "Kelly did not testify. He apparently wrote about his borderlands ranching life in the self-published “Far Beyond the Border Fence,” described on Amazon.com as a “contemporary novel which brings the Mexican Border/Drug conflict into the 21st century.”

 

[SteveS]

No.
it is a fact, the victims body was found unarmed.

Correct - the man was found without a weapon. That was what I said. But you said he was "unarmed" and that was NOT accurate, in relation to these events.

He could have had multiple weapons on him as he went across Kelly's property illegally. We do know that the people with him left, and OTHER people were there and also left, and we have no way to know what weapons any of them had or might have taken as they went.