AZ - Gabriel Cuen-Buitimea, allegedly shot and killed with an AK-47 by rancher George Alan Kelly, 75, Kino Springs, Jan 2023

Status
Not open for further replies.
  • #681
Without a bullet all we have is witness testimony and circumstantial evidence on both sides of this case.
We don't know what the prosecution has, she specifically said she was not releasing all the facts at that hearing.

So, we are left with no proof that Mr. Kelly has to, or ever has had to "cower" inside his house or has been otherwise threatened on his property, ie the post I responded to.
 
  • #682
Without a bullet all we have is witness testimony and circumstantial evidence on both sides of this case.
I agree. The state's case is very weak, relying on unreliable eye witness testimony. JMO.
 
  • #683
There is no proof that he has ever been threatened on his land, no proof at all that anyone or anything has made him "cower" in his house.

Well, in that case, there’s no proof that he fired a shot that day, let alone shot someone.

MOO
 
  • #684
We don't know what the prosecution has, she specifically said she was not releasing all the facts at that hearing.

So, we are left with no proof that Mr. Kelly has to, or ever has had to "cower" inside his house or has been otherwise threatened on his property, ie the post I responded to.
Without at least casings from unaccounted weapons the defense has Kelly's testimony and his wife's testimony (and extensive circumstantial communication records with border patrol). Without a bullet, the prosecution has witness testimony and circumstantial evidence that it was even Kelly who shot the guy.
 
  • #685
If Kelly sees shed clothing, etc, on his road near the gate to town, where those photos were apparently taken, then it seems reasonable to me KS is probably a transfer area, or terminal area for some immigrants, and they follow that road to get into town. And that it may have been for decades. Unfortunately it goes right next to his house.
Somewhat like historical underground rr stops. Google says that K S has <300 inhabitants, I wonder what the economy is based on.
 
  • #686
Does the state even have evidence that proves their witness's were at the ranch when the shooting took place? I doubt they have cell phone evidence. I'm sure it's common knowledge among illegal immigrants that CBP uses cell phone tracking to find them after they cross the border. JMO.
CBP has used the cellphone location information to track the movement of migrants across the U.S.-Mexico border, according to the ACLU.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #687
Without at least casings from unaccounted weapons the defense has Kelly's testimony and his wife's testimony (and extensive circumstantial communication records with border patrol). Without a bullet, the prosecution has witness testimony and circumstantial evidence that it was even Kelly who shot the guy.
Yes. And since Mr Kelly is innocent until proven guilty the state will have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he shot and killed the victim.

I don't see the state having the quality of evidence to do that at this point. JMO.
 
  • #688
The officer arrested him "on suspicion of murder" because his story kept changing.
I am hoping there is more proof than a changing story. There has to be something to tie the body to Kelly's armaments or the whole thing is just a tragic spectacle. Obviously, I know.
 
  • #689
I am hoping there is more proof than a changing story. There has to be something to tie the body to Kelly's armaments or the whole thing is just a tragic spectacle. Obviously, I know.

I confess that I haven’t dug deep into the links—do we know in what ways his story changed?
 
  • #690
I confess that I haven’t dug deep into the links—do we know in what ways his story changed?
It's all in the links on the thread, I don't have bookmarks on the apparatus I use in the daytime. He said he was "returning fire", that they were "near" his house, that he fired "over their heads", he might be underfire, the "leader" pointed an ak at him, that they were too far away to tell if they were armed, and so on. Also the story of when he found the body has some contradictions. He went to the pasture to see if the horse really had been hurt, after checking his horse earlier. Voila, a body by the pasture. There are at least a couple of stories about what led him to the pasture, re the horse. He had lots of time to develop his stories, (and to potentially rearrange evidence like casings) iirc there were nearly 3 hours between the first call - that he was returning fire - and LE ultimately taking charge of the victim's body. In one of those links the prosecuting atty lists some of the contradictions, but as I say I can't provide those links on this device. We are lucky to have just one thread with all the links in one place.

Imo
 
  • #691
It's all in the links on the thread, I don't have bookmarks on the apparatus I use in the daytime. He said he was "returning fire", that they were "near" his house, that he fired "over their heads", he might be underfire, the "leader" pointed an ak at him, that they were too far away to tell if they were armed, and so on. Also the story of when he found the body has some contradictions. He went to the pasture to see if the horse really had been hurt, after checking his horse earlier. Voila, a body by the pasture. There are at least a couple of stories about what led him to the pasture, re the horse. He had lots of time to develop his stories, (and to potentially rearrange evidence like casings) iirc there were nearly 3 hours between the first call - that he was returning fire - and LE ultimately taking charge of the victim's body. In one of those links the prosecuting atty lists some of the contradictions, but as I say I can't provide those links on this device. We are lucky to have just one thread with all the links in one place.

Imo
I wonder why BP didn't find the body when they searched Mr Kelly's property? Was C-B shot after that? Was his body dumped there after the search by unknown persons? JMO.
 
  • #692

Since Sheriff’s Deputies arrested George Alan Kelly, staff at the Sheriff’s Office, as well as the county courthouse and main complex, have received aggressive calls from people sympathetic to Kelly. "It’s just people calling, and, you know, expressing themselves. Cussing us out, basically." Chief Deputy Gerardo Castillo said.

One caller, Castillo said, told him he “sounded Hispanic,” adding: “So I hope your family gets killed.”

A dispatch log shows that the Sheriff’s Office received a report on Wednesday of “harassing” emails and phone calls received at the courthouse.

The callers, Castillo said, are not identifying themselves, and the area codes largely indicate out-of-state phone numbers. None of the calls seemed specific enough to constitute a criminal threat.
“They’ve been very vague,” he said.

If that changes, he said, the Sheriff’s Office would work with federal authorities such as the FBI to further investigate. But for now, the callers seem to be aiming the insults at any individual who happens to answer the phone.

Sigh. Unsurprised, but still hard to hear and must be deeply discouraging for the Sheriff's office, even if the threat level is still low for the moment.

It must be horrendous for locals when a case is headed for political torpedo status. While the border issues aren't really comparable, some aspects of this story remind me of recent cases in Canada.

Colten Boushie in Sask comes to mind:


And then in Alberta:

 
  • #693
There is no proof that he has ever been threatened on his land, no proof at all that anyone or anything has made him "cower" in his house.
Arizona rancher who shot 'cartel drug smuggler' dead on his property made '30 to 40' calls to Border Patrol in January ALONE
SOURCE

It would be enlightening to know the content of these calls. Just catching up with his "BP buddies" or what?

Hopefully this comes in as evidence. I doubt it will benefit the state's "case"!
Moo
 
  • #694
It's all in the links on the thread, I don't have bookmarks on the apparatus I use in the daytime. He said he was "returning fire", that they were "near" his house, that he fired "over their heads", he might be underfire, the "leader" pointed an ak at him, that they were too far away to tell if they were armed, and so on. Also the story of when he found the body has some contradictions. He went to the pasture to see if the horse really had been hurt, after checking his horse earlier. Voila, a body by the pasture. There are at least a couple of stories about what led him to the pasture, re the horse. He had lots of time to develop his stories, (and to potentially rearrange evidence like casings) iirc there were nearly 3 hours between the first call - that he was returning fire - and LE ultimately taking charge of the victim's body. In one of those links the prosecuting atty lists some of the contradictions, but as I say I can't provide those links on this device. We are lucky to have just one thread with all the links in one place.

Imo
Until C-B's time of death is confirmed, GK "staging" anything related to his death is pure speculation.

Looking forward to have the timeline clarified. I hope that will be revealed in the preliminary hearing.

There's so much we don't know. I like facts & look forward to evidence & testimony that hopefully provides FACTS.
JMO
 
  • #695
We don't know what the prosecution has, she specifically said she was not releasing all the facts at that hearing.

So, we are left with no proof that Mr. Kelly has to, or ever has had to "cower" inside his house or has been otherwise threatened on his property, ie the post I responded to.
I think most people would feel threatened if they had armed people on their property.

Do we know without a doubt that the people on that day were armed? No. But in my opinion it is a reasonable assumption to make based on what we know.

We do know that there were armed people on his property in the past. This was said in the preliminary hearing. I would certainly consider that to be a threatening situation.

He doesn’t have to stay inside. He can go out on his porch or anywhere else he wants to go on his very own property. We’ve heard that he called LE 30-40 times. If he had to call that many times I don’t think calling LE has been very effective. I could definitely see where a person might need to be proactive in regard to their safety. imo
 
  • #696
Arizona rancher who shot 'cartel drug smuggler' dead on his property made '30 to 40' calls to Border Patrol in January ALONE
SOURCE

It would be enlightening to know the content of these calls. Just catching up with his "BP buddies" or what?

Hopefully this comes in as evidence. I doubt it will benefit the state's "case"!
Moo
Isn't that sourced to a "neighbor" who lives by the fence? It really wouldn't matter if he had 1000 in a month if he slaughtered someone who wasn't a threat.

I too look forward to hearing it all, and I do think he will get off no matter what the evidence may be. I sure hope this is not another Barry Morphew fiasco, re competence of the prosecution, imo.
 
  • #697
<modsnip: Rude and personalizing> ... The scenario you describe is very different than anything going on in Santa Cruz County.

Glad you came out ok. Now, count your lucky stars you only had to be afraid of the BP & not cartel members who kill with no remorse & place no value on any human life, only the $$$$$ drug running lines their pockets with.

Wouldn't it be great if those jaunting across private land in this case really had to fear the BP or the courts? I think so because whatever reason they had for crossing the border (common sense says not good ones), it was two illegal actions by them that created the whole scenario.

GK was on his property. He didn't go to the border wall & fire into Mexico, taking a life at random. I don't think he killed C-B either, but we shall see.

<modsnip>

JMO
<modsnip>

I mean, exercise caution like you would with any strangers, and you certainly have the right to chase them off your land, but you don't have the right to kill someone who is not threatening you just because you are sick and tired of trespassers.

Some people just take this private property business to the extreme. JMO. I was once in Austin and I was to visit my ex-sister in law who lived near Ft Worth. She sent me on this winding back road and it was pitch black and I thought for sure I was lost so I pulled off the only place I could which was the entrance to a gated ranch and I sat with the car running to call her. Before I even finished the call the rancher was at the gate with his headlights shining on me and I finished the call and hung up and drove off as he was opening the gate. Being from CA, I assumed he was going out for milk or something, but no, my sister in law told me he was probably coming out to confront me.

Sorry for the rant. All JMO.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #698
<modsnip> I mean, exercise caution like you would with any strangers, and you certainly have the right to chase them off your land, but you don't have the right to kill someone who is not threatening you just because you are sick and tired of trespassers.

Some people just take this private property business to the extreme. JMO. I was once in Austin and I was to visit my ex-sister in law who lived near Ft Worth. She sent me on this winding back road and it was pitch black and I thought for sure I was lost so I pulled off the only place I could which was the entrance to a gated ranch and I sat with the car running to call her. Before I even finished the call the rancher was at the gate with his headlights shining on me and I finished the call and hung and drove off as he was opening the gate. Being from CA, I assumed he was going out for milk or something, but no, my sister in law told me he was probably coming out to confront me.

Sorry for the rant. All JMO.
Even in 2005, 3 years after GK bought his Arizona land...I, even then oldish obvious didn't fit the suspect profile American woman, was stopped about 10 times by bp or other local le as I was bird watching, alone, from Big Bend State Park, Alpine, BBNP, Del Rio, etc. Probably the binocs didn't help, but the stops were brusque, I had to get out of the obvious cheapskate clearly coded rental car, have a flashlight in my face once. I could have gotten brusque right back at them, but they scared me although they were simply competent and polite, definitely no smiley faces.

At this very moment I have friends birding on the border in AZ further east than gk, no problems at all.

I think after it's all said and done, GK was originally swayed by a realtor as to the bucolic nature of that ranch, just as he is trying to do to others thru his own realtor now, lol. It probably always was an immigration corridor to KS, staging to big cities further north. Imo
 
Last edited:
  • #699
They were heading toward his house, not away from his land. What were they going to do there if Mr. Kelly hadn't come out of his house?
the only one who said that was him. may be true, may not be. LE said his stories were inconsistent that day.
 
  • #700

Since Sheriff’s Deputies arrested George Alan Kelly, staff at the Sheriff’s Office, as well as the county courthouse and main complex, have received aggressive calls from people sympathetic to Kelly. "It’s just people calling, and, you know, expressing themselves. Cussing us out, basically." Chief Deputy Gerardo Castillo said.

One caller, Castillo said, told him he “sounded Hispanic,” adding: “So I hope your family gets killed.”

A dispatch log shows that the Sheriff’s Office received a report on Wednesday of “harassing” emails and phone calls received at the courthouse.

The callers, Castillo said, are not identifying themselves, and the area codes largely indicate out-of-state phone numbers. None of the calls seemed specific enough to constitute a criminal threat.
“They’ve been very vague,” he said.

If that changes, he said, the Sheriff’s Office would work with federal authorities such as the FBI to further investigate. But for now, the callers seem to be aiming the insults at any individual who happens to answer the phone.
well that seems really productive -_-
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
67
Guests online
3,410
Total visitors
3,477

Forum statistics

Threads
632,600
Messages
18,628,874
Members
243,210
Latest member
griffinsteven661
Back
Top