AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #10

[gitana1]

Here is my new theory, of sorts, this all MOO

Maby EJ is not the horrible terrible evil girl we think she is. yes she said some very disturbing things, not taking her side, just humor me. She is Bi-polar right? keep in mind, I have a limited knowledge of this disorder, and a friends sister who has it. so maby when she tore everything up in the house, she was in her manic mode, and when reality hit, it scared her. Maybe it was not the first, since Gabe has been born. and I say maby it scared the Heck out of her. she loves this baby, and would be devastated if she hurt him in a manic fit(I do not know what they are called, feel free to correct me) The times she told dad to "take that baby with you" were times she felt she was in her manic state. or heading there.

and here comes TS, Whatever TS says sounds like a blessing. baby Gabe will be safe! Maby she really wanted to be with LM, and that is why she thought maby he would sign the papers. and she couldn't be with him, if Gabe was in his custody, because she was scared to be around him. TS Knew exactly what to say. whatever it was. Being bi-polar, is it possible to be so focused on 1 thing, that you lose touch with reality, or evrything else that may make sense? IDK for sure. but once EJ got the thought into her head, that adoption wuld be best, she was stuck on that. think about the reason a mother normally gives their child up, I have been there, some of you have adopted. it is a selfless thing, something done with love, no matter the pain on the birthmom.

or, not sure how this works with Bi-polar, but is possible to think others are "out to get you"?? if so, being EJ thinks LM "ruined her life" simple as her haveing a baby she loves but cannot raise, to thinking he may want to harm her. is it possible in this state, she thought maby she was running to "save baby gabe"?? I know manic states can sometimes last quite awhile, correct? and she went off her meds, so maby this was a sign that she was getting manic?

I think TS manipulated EJ, isn't there some law for taking advantage of the mentaly ill?? EJ may function normally, but if her emotions/mental state are played upon, I think this is serious. Maby in the end, EJ realized what TS was doing and ran? Everyone was out to get her and baby Gabe. They wanted to "take" him. true or not, she may have felt this, and it made it so, KWIM? AND NOBODY was going to just TAKE her baby!! she tried to take some sort of control, ran and handed baby Gabe off to a couple of her chooseing! And so goes her myspace status--- "TAKE THAT SUCKAS!!!!"

He just looks to cared for, IMOO. I mean if she did not want this baby AT ALL. why take such care to keep him clean and comfy??

feel free to poke holes in my theory, or tell me it is time to retire my WS hat! LOL

I don't want to throw cold water on your idea but Caylee Anthony was also well dressed, clean and seemingly well cared for by her mother. People said casey seemed like a careful mother who took good care of Caylee.
I think that we see things in black and white too much. People who do evil things are usually not 100% evil. Evil people are not always 100% evil. Sometimes serial killers will feel particularly "bad" about one of their victims and refuse to talk about that particular murder, for example, even while they confess to others. Sometimes killers cover the face of the victim post-mortem because they don't want to see the eyes of the person they killed. And sometimes, mothers who kill appear to take good care of their children, or even act fond of them.
When thinking about how we view sociopaths, these things don't fit. We think of killers, sociopaths and mothers who kill their own babies as 100% evil and unfeeling. But, I have come to believe that there is a scale, it's not so clear cut and even evil can have some shred of feeling.
This is not to say that I think EJ killed Gabriel. I am on the fence, just waiting and hoping.

 

[PercyVeer]

Sorry ! I keep forgetting to check remember me, lol.
OK, news report about TW custody issue said H was 2 when they got formal custody. He said it was when he was OOT. Now she is 4.5? or so, I believe. So, around 2007?
Healing Watersaz, TS business site, says she moved in July 2007 due to the state "not allowing" her type of medical practice.
Can I link her site?

 

[PercyVeer]

OK The doc from the TN board of medical examiners Sept 19 2007 says she was not at the hearing- It was in September, she was Looong gone.

 

[PercyVeer]

Hearing doc.
http://health.state.tn.us/Downloads/Me_Min091807.pdf

The fine was 4000 dollars? Wonder if it was paid?

 

[OneLove]

Sorry ! I keep forgetting to check remember me, lol.
OK, news report about TW custody issue said H was 2 when they got formal custody. He said it was when he was OOT. Now she is 4.5? or so, I believe. So, around 2007?
Healing Watersaz, TS business site, says she moved in July 2007 due to the state "not allowing" her type of medical practice.
Can I link her site?

Many thanks, and great research. Do you know, if the state did not allow her type of medical practice, what changed that now does allow her to practice? Just wonderin'.

Also wondering, Jack said they had H from the age of 4 months? So what went on from then until the age of two, aside from the "alledged" attempts to buy off H's father? Anyone know if the mother did any drug rehabs or made attempts to regain physical custody? Did she live with Jack and Tammi (the mother)? It seems TAW claims that H's mom lead him to believe she was herself retaining custody, while she instead voluntarily signed over her rights to Jack and Tammi. Wonder if there was money involved in that also?

 

[DairyGirl]

Many thanks, and great research. Do you know, if the state did not allow her type of medical practice, what changed that now does allow her to practice? Just wonderin'.

Also wondering, Jack said they had H from the age of 4 months? So what went on from then until the age of two, aside from the "alledged" attempts to buy off H's father? Anyone know if the mother did any drug rehabs or made attempts to regain physical custody? Did she live with Jack and Tammi (the mother)? It seems TAW claims that H's mom lead him to believe she was herself retaining custody, while she instead voluntarily signed over her rights to Jack and Tammi. Wonder if there was money involved in that also?

I think the reason they moved to AZ was that the laws are more favorable to her type of business. Don't think it had anything to do with H's adoption. I think I heard her mother was in rehab a time or two, not sure.
I don't think they had a problem with the mom signing over her rights. She seems ok with it now judging by a post she made to TPS's Facebook. I don't think money was involved but it could be. I think TW likes to complain but he did not seem to do anything to prevent the adoption like getting an attorney. Maybe he couldn't afford it but it seems that he is/was all talk.

 

[PercyVeer]

I vote for money and admiration comin in! As I said earlier, this is really creepin me out. I had a bff who had taken another woman's daughter, tried to take two more, talked about kids like" my rent is so high, I need to foster," always making complaints about how people cared for their kids, and was always writing in her prayer journal; she had that cocktail thing down pat. I looked in the manual, and she was exactly what they mentioned earlier here-narcissistic, borderline personality disorder. Everything was all about her and how righteous she was! She talked incessantly, like this one does on tv and FB! But it is all for gain, monetary and admiration gain. I really think this one is the same motivations.

 

[BeanE]

Now she's asking people to pray for Logan....
She's building a cocktail. When more people were speaking out against Logan, she hated him, he was unfit...just look at his record.
Now that Logan is seen as more of a victim, she wants us to remember him, pray for him, associate him with her when we think.

If people were to start posting to her FB that Logan doesn't deserve our prayers, she would change her tune to pray that Logan be saved. This is kind of creepy to watch.

Pray for Logan, that he doesn't testify against her, and doesn't sue her a@@ six ways to Sunday, methinks.

She should have prayed instead for God to help her control her vicious mouth before she went on national TV vilifying him.

Mornin', everyone

 

[PercyVeer]

LOL, g'morn BeanE I should say good night. zzzz
DairyGirl is so right, State Laws differ.

 

[BeanE]

two questions:

1. can anyone refresh my memory on where it was said that EJ is bipolar?

2. did anyone dig up any more info on the nanny that the Smith's hired?

Catching up, so this may have been answered, but it was the grandfather who said that he and Logan both have been convinced for some time that Eliz is bipolar, but she refused to get any help, is undiagnosed, and untreated.

She was on meds for PPD up until approx Dec 8. I don't know what meds she was on, or how they would affect whatever disorder she has, but it's truly a shame - for Gabriel.

Many people are helped tremendously by medications for various disorders, and Gabriel might have been better cared for, and not where he is now, had she met her maternal responsibilities to him.

 

[OneLove]

Pray for Logan, that he doesn't testify against her, and doesn't sue her a@@ six ways to Sunday, methinks.
:applause::applause::applause:

She should have prayed instead for God to help her control her vicious mouth before she went on national TV vilifying him.
:rolling::rolling::rolling:

Mornin', everyone

And good mornin' to you! :balloons:

 

[OneLove]

Catching up, so this may have been answered, but it was the grandfather who said that he and Logan both have been convinced for some time that Eliz is bipolar, but she refused to get any help, is undiagnosed, and untreated.

She was on meds for PPD up until approx Dec 8. I don't know what meds she was on, or how they would affect whatever disorder she has, but it's truly a shame - for Gabriel.

Many people are helped tremendously by medications for various disorders, and Gabriel might have been better cared for, and not where he is now, had she met her maternal responsibilities to him.

Given her massive and violent temper tantrums, along with her 'diversion' program for anger management issues, I'd be willing to bet her medical care included a diagnosis of Bipolar and she passed it off for public/family consumption as postpartum depression. Having a bipolar-afflicted loved one in the family, and having worked with many, I can tell you that most reject the diagnosis and work hard to conceal it. Most also quit taking the medication if not supervised closely.

I'm thinking (not knowing, just thinking) that any medication just for depression would not have made her so crazy mean vindictive and impulsive on withdrawal. Now, medication for bipolar, THAT'S a different matter; have been there and seen it. That's what leads me to vote for bipolar over PPD. The stress of having a baby to care for often does exacerbate bipolar too!

 

[BeanE]

Also, since she is saying that LE didn't talk to her for 15 days after Gabriel went missing, how long has it been publicized that the Smiths are POI'S? Anyone know?

She must think the public hasn't noticed how very many opportunities she's had to talk with LE going way back as early as December 9, when a Tempe detective was at her home specifically in regards to Gabriel.

In addition to the numerous LE contacts she's had, she was also out at the courthouse, for example, on December 17. She could have right then and there alerted authorities about what Elizabeth was attempting to do to Gabriel. Instead, she chose to facilitate her.

GMAB

 

[BeanE]

To all my dear WS friends....
can we all please make sure this thread stays on topic so that we don't have to worry about it being shut down?

Thanks for everyone's cooperation.

Thanks, Marigold. I'm a couple pages back trying to catch up, and beginning to think I was in a TW thread. Very hard to follow...

Where's Gabriel?

 

[BeanE]

Pretty much agree with you here.

And from a psychological standpoint, I also have to wonder if she somewhat identified with EJ's personality disorders and her tendency to blame her child's father for everything wrong in her life rather than taking a long, hard look at herself. I kinda think there was a LOT of projection going on in this case that caused Tammi to lose her good judgement.

I think you nailed it!

 

[robinmphoto]

Now she's asking people to pray for Logan....
She's building a cocktail. When more people were speaking out against Logan, she hated him, he was unfit...just look at his record.
Now that Logan is seen as more of a victim, she wants us to remember him, pray for him, associate him with her when we think.

If people were to start posting to her FB that Logan doesn't deserve our prayers, she would change her tune to pray that Logan be saved. This is kind of creepy to watch.

Remember when Tammi said Logan's ego is so far into this that he will never sign adoption papers. That was the most insensitive statement about a father who is missing his son.

 

[OneLove]

Remember when Tammi said Logan's ego is so far into this that he will never sign adoption papers. That was the most insensitive statement about a father who is missing his son.

Agree, and what an interesting statement, coming from her. At the time, she may just as well have added that EJ's ego was so far into this that SHE will never give up the whereabouts of Logan's baby.

I wonder if she's made any statements in her past about her EX having an "ego" concerning custody of HIS kids.

 

[robinmphoto]

Agree, and what an interesting statement, coming from her. At the time, she may just as well have added that EJ's ego was so far into this that SHE will never give up the whereabouts of Logan's baby.

I wonder if she's made any statements in her past about her EX having an "ego" concerning custody of HIS kids.

I said in the beginning many threads ago that Tammi was projecting her experience from her husband on to Logan. How she can justify doing something illegal like actually being the one to write down another person's name as a father on a legal document. She knowingly lied not just thought there could be a possibility that CC could be the father. Her explainations of why she did it have changed 4-5 times. Unbelievable to me. I still think Tammi has something to do with the Texas id for Elizabeth. Last night on Nancy Grace she admitted she did something wrong in LE's eyes to warrant the home search but would really only explain her justification of doing it not WHAT she did. It was so unclear because she was rambling about jurisdiction, new social security numbers and Janet Morris. She states after getting called on it oh we thought about it the next day............I say bull! She is not saying exactly what it was and I don't believe it was simply the call to Janet. She did something else.

Also regarding the CC on the paternity document, maybe because she was not the one to sign the form, they cannot do anything about that.

I just want to scream when I here Tammi talk. I am an advocate of father's who want to be in their child's life and and are fit to be. I have seen situations where in the hospital father/mom get in a argument and mom keeps dad's name off of the birth certificate. He can eventually fight it but such a hassle. So I think strongly that Tammi did everything in her power to strip a father of his rights and preyed on a new mother.

Hopefully my only rant for today have to get work done!!!!!

 

[BeanE]

What happened to Gabriel? I thought maybe we could try to nail down the feasible possibilities. I know my head is swimming.

The following is just to start the conversation, and I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet.

1- Eliz gave him to Someone. Someone was provided to Eliz by TayJay *with* Eliz's knowledge.

2- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone. Someone was provided to Eliz by TayJay *without* Eliz's knowledge.

In both 1 and 2, TayJay may have provided Someone, or they may have contacted another person to provide Someone.

3- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone. Someone happened to coincidentally run into Eliz:

in Tempe
between Tempe and San Antonio
in San Antonio​

4- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone. Eliz sought out Someone.

Eliz may have advertised on Craigslist, and Someone contacted her.
Eliz may have answered Someone's ad on Craiglist.
(How else could Eliz have found Someone?)
Eliz could have found Someone

while she was in Tempe, prior to Dec 8
while she was in Tempe, from Dec 8 to Dec 18
while she was on the road, Dec 18 to Dec 22
after she got to San Antonio​

In all scenarios above, where Eliz gives Gabriel to Someone, it could have been:

selling him, either direct to Someone, or for Someone to sell to Someone Else
giving him for a legal or illegal adoption
giving him to be in turn given him to Someone Else, with or without Eliz's knowledge​

In all scenarios above, Someone or Someone Else is a person who may:

want to 'adopt' a child to live with them as a family
be a pedophile
be a child trafficker
be a child pimp (I don't know what these people are called)​

5- Eliz harmed Gabriel. This would have to have been on Dec 26 or Dec 27.

6 - Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone to hold/hide to hurt Logan, with the intent that Gabriel would be returned, at a specified or unspecified time. May have been arranged by TayJay or by Eliz on her own.

7 - Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone to hold/hide until such time as TayJay could 'adopt' him, perhaps with visits from TayJay in the interim.


In all the scenarios where Eliz gives Gabriel to Someone, do we have any reason to believe that Eliz thought what she was doing was legal? Or that an adoption would have been legal?

What are the other feasible possibilities?

 

[WholeLottaRosie]

What happened to Gabriel? I thought maybe we could try to nail down the feasible possibilities. I know my head is swimming.

The following is just to start the conversation, and I haven't had my second cup of coffee yet.

1- Eliz gave him to Someone. Someone was provided to Eliz by TayJay *with* Eliz's knowledge. I think that this was what TayJay were trying to do. After everything I have read, I think they are baby brokers. And I think this is far from the first child they have brokered.



4- Eliz gave Gabriel to Someone. Eliz sought out Someone.

Eliz may have advertised on Craigslist, and Someone contacted her.
Eliz may have answered Someone's ad on Craiglist.
(How else could Eliz have found Someone?)
Eliz could have found Someone

while she was in Tempe, prior to Dec 8
while she was in Tempe, from Dec 8 to Dec 18
while she was on the road, Dec 18 to Dec 22
after she got to San Antonio​

think that while TayJay were trying for number one, Elizabeth went around them and got her own deal. I don't think TJ were ever really going to personally adopt Gabriel, but, maybe they did want to keep one. I think when E found what the baby might be worth, she set up her own deal.

In all scenarios above, where Eliz gives Gabriel to Someone, it could have been:

selling him, either direct to Someone, or for Someone to sell to Someone Else
giving him for a legal or illegal adoption
giving him to be in turn given him to Someone Else, with or without Eliz's knowledge​

In all scenarios above, Someone or Someone Else is a person who may:

want to 'adopt' a child to live with them as a family
be a pedophile
be a child trafficker
be a child pimp (I don't know what these people are called)​

In all the scenarios where Eliz gives Gabriel to Someone, do we have any reason to believe that Eliz thought what she was doing was legal? Or that an adoption would have been legal? sure on this one, I think she knew it wasn't entirely legal, but, I think she felt it was okay for her to do whatever she wanted to keep Gabriel away from his father.

What are the other feasible possibilities?

I think you pretty much covered everything.

On another note, I don't think it has been offically cleared by LE that the woman Beth, who posted on the scrapbooking blog has been cleared. The woman who owns the blog posted yesterday that she was contacted by MEDIA about this and she called Beth and Beth told her the child was 15 days old (that they adopted). Somewhere I read that LE hadn't cleared them yet, but, now, having read so much, I can't find that article. Does anyone know more about this? It seemed to me that Becky Higgins, the blog owner simply gave Beth a good heads up that there was questions about her post/her Baby Gabriel.