AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #15

[BeanE]

Thank you BeanE. I think you've just convinced me. But I'm afraid that doesn't bode well for Gabriel.

Well that was sure easy! ;-)

It's only the past few days when it's finally all come together for me.

I think once Tammi and Eliz got back in touch, after Eliz was in SA, Tammi was still trying to 'help', e.g., pressuring Eliz to come back and fight for full custody. I think that was again just so she could adopt Gabriel.

I think Tammi's 'help' may well provide LE more info on where Gabriel may be, and I don't think she's divulged her conversations with Eliz to LE fully or truthfully yet.

:cow:

 

[Pondering Mind]

Dec 8, Elizabeth fights with Logan and orders him out of the house. Elizabeth is enraged.

Plan A (Dec 8 - earlier Dec 9) was Elizabeth's. Give Gabriel to the Smiths, and then demand that Logan sign the papers. Since Gabriel was already with his future adoptive parents, it was a done deal in Elizabeth's mind. All she needed was that signature. Then Logan's rights would be gone, and Tammi could adopt Gabriel.

Plan A - Foiled by Logan's refusal to get with the program.

Plan B (later Dec 9 - very early Dec 10) was Elizabeth's. When Logan wouldn't sign the papers, with Gabriel already at the Smiths, Elizabeth filed a false police report (charges pending) saying that Logan had kidnapped Gabriel and she didn't know where they were. This was an attempt to remove Logan's paternal rights via an abandonment claim, so Tammi could adopt Gabriel.

Plan B - Foiled by LE finding Gabriel at the Smiths.

Plan C (Dec 14) was Elizabeth's. Falsify her response to Logan's Dec 11 custody petition in an attempt to remove his paternal rights so Tammi can adopt Gabriel.

Tammi may have given Elizabeth some ideas, and we know at least by Dec 14 she was aiding and abetting, but Elizabeth is the mastermind. It is her plan to remove Gabriel from Logan's life. It's more like Plan A.1, A.2, A.3 - all the same plan - remove Gabriel from Logan's life - just trying different ways to effect the plan.

The real Plan B begins Dec 15 when Elizabeth goes rogue on Tammi, and after my review of all the info to update the timelines over the past few days, I'm convinced that Tammi had no clue what Elizabeth was up to.

Elizabeth is very smart cookie.

:cow:

ITA! VERY Impressive Post BeanE! :clap::clap::clap:




You know, I really wish we would hear more about her usual state of mind, her behavior and what sets her off when she's in a rage..how she acts and reacts, etc...

There has to be people out there that know her, went to school w/her...something..yet nobody is saying a word. Isn't that unusual once a case at least has had some national attention?..or maybe it's just me.:crazy:

 

[mamaeb]

So, is anyone watching NG tonight? What is she talking about? I am personally boycotting her as she ticked me off so much over her cosseting of the Smiths and her feeding lines to the babysitter.

nope. I am not interested in watching her unless she is berating the smiths. I am glad someone else feels the same =)

 

[OneLove]

Well that was sure easy! ;-)

It's only the past few days when it's finally all come together for me.

I think once Tammi and Eliz got back in touch, after Eliz was in SA, Tammi was still trying to 'help', e.g., pressuring Eliz to come back and fight for full custody. I think that was again just so she could adopt Gabriel.

I think Tammi's 'help' may well provide LE more info on where Gabriel may be, and I don't think she's divulged her conversations with Eliz to LE fully or truthfully yet.

:cow:

I hope you are right! I fear it was just turning into more trouble than EJ was willing to go to, unless it was EJ that posted those adoption ads, she got a taker, and she was holed up in SA waiting for the new parents to arrive. If they had already bought a nice "travel system" with stroller and carseat, I can see them flying or driving the carseat down to take him back in.

And I can see EJ just handing Gabriel over to them with nothing else, walking away, and leaving Gabe's stuff where it sat rather than throwing it in the garbage, and ....
- - walking over to the hotel next door, checking in with new id and starting a whole new "adventurous" life.

 

[BeanE]

So was Tammi in shock and denial at this point? What do you think was REALLY going on in Tammi's mind at this point? Was the whole strange reaction post traumatic syndrome, or was it cover-up?

Nah. Tammi's tunnel vision and delight that Eliz said something so horrible to Logan kept her from considering for even a second that Eliz might have actually done it.

In a weird way, Tammi was sort of vicariously re-enacting her ire at her ex-husband through Eliz.

:cow:

 

[time]

Thank you, OL.

Tammi was a track to get Gabriel. She had tunnel vision. She had it so bad, that she didn't realize it when Eliz went rogue on her.

Elizabeth is secretive, per her grandfather. She gets an idea and nothing will get her off it.

Tammi and Elizabeth are very much alike in that. But... they each had ultimately differing agendas. Elizabeth is the stronger of the two.

I don't see Tammi as coaching Elizabeth. They recognize the tendency to manipulative in each other. Tammi was simply giving Eliz a suggestion.

Listen when Tammi asks "and who told you that?" about Eliz getting arrested for kidnapping. Listen to Eliz when she responds. She says "Logan"... and laughs. She was delighting in the game.

But Elizabeth will do what Elizabeth wants to do. If anyone was the puppet, it was Tammi. Elizabeth used Tammi until she didn't need her anymore. Then she lied to her, telling her she was only taking Gabriel for a visit with Logan, and she ran. She didn't give a hoot about Tammi. She just wanted to get Gabriel away from Logan no matter what.

Tammi is a deplorable person. Elizabeth is far, far worse. And much, much smarter.

:cow:

Sorry, I just can't buy that "Tammi was simply giving Eliz suggestions" or that Tammi was Elizabeth's puppet. I think Tammi has had years of experience at these thing, far more than Elizabeth. Methinks you are speculating a bit too much, but that's just my opinion. I don't think Elizabeth had the expertise to come up with some of the legal ploys and I don't think she manipulated Tammi into putting someone else's name on there as the father - frankly, I think that idea was Tammi's. Tammi has a criminal record that includes falsifying documents and other stuff. There appears to be a lot of controversy over the adoption of "H", of Tammi's connections (think Janet from The Adoption Place) and so on. Tammi knows all the ins and outs of these things, it basically looks like it was her life the past several years. Tammi was practicing without a license and looks like she skipped out on a fine. Elizabeth does not have all this kind of history - she has a history, yes, but .... look who had the real experience and expertise and had already put some of it into practice.

 

[BeanE]

I hope you are right! I fear it was just turning into more trouble than EJ was willing to go to, unless it was EJ that posted those adoption ads, she got a taker, and she was holed up in SA waiting for the new parents to arrive. If they had already bought a nice "travel system" with stroller and carseat, I can see them flying or driving the carseat down to take him back in.

And I can see EJ just handing Gabriel over to them with nothing else, walking away, and leaving Gabe's stuff where it sat rather than throwing it in the garbage, and ....
- - walking over to the hotel next door, checking in with new id and starting a whole new "adventurous" life.

I'm gonna sound like a broken record, but she's one smart girl. She may very have started looking for other options before leaving Tempe. Even before Dec 8.

Those adoption ads that momtective found are intriguing.

 

[BeanE]

Sorry, I just can't buy that "Tammi was simply giving Eliz suggestions" or that Tammi was Elizabeth's puppet. I think Tammi has had years of experience at these thing, far more than Elizabeth. Methinks you are speculating a bit too much, but that's just my opinion. I don't think Elizabeth had the expertise to come up with some of the legal ploys and I don't think she manipulated Tammi into putting someone else's name on there as the father - frankly, I think that idea was Tammi's. Tammi has a criminal record that includes falsifying documents and other stuff. There appears to be a lot of controversy over the adoption of "H", of Tammi's connections (think Janet from The Adoption Place) and so on. Tammi knows all the ins and outs of these things, it basically looks like it was her life the past several years. Tammi was practicing without a license and looks like she skipped out on a fine. Elizabeth does not have all this kind of history - she has a history, yes, but .... look who had the real experience and expertise and had already put some of it into practice.

I did say that Tammi helped. She aided and abetted. The false paternity/cousin thing, for example. No doubts.

Tammi was mighty helpful to Elizabeth in effecting her plan. That's why Elizabeth let her into her life. She was useful. And when she was no longer useful, she cut her out of her life.

Why did Eliz want to talk to Tammi from jail? "I just wanted to see what was going on."

I know I'm in the minority. I have to have a story to what happened that's based on the known facts, logical, reasonable, and 'fits' for/to me. May be utterly ridiculous to everyone else, but I need something that works for me, so I know where to look for Gabriel.

 

[Kamille]

Well that was sure easy! ;-)

It's only the past few days when it's finally all come together for me.

I think once Tammi and Eliz got back in touch, after Eliz was in SA, Tammi was still trying to 'help', e.g., pressuring Eliz to come back and fight for full custody. I think that was again just so she could adopt Gabriel.

I think Tammi's 'help' may well provide LE more info on where Gabriel may be, and I don't think she's divulged her conversations with Eliz to LE fully or truthfully yet.

:cow:

I've believed for some time that EJ went rogue on TS at some point during that road trip. I do think the original trip was planned by both EJ and The Smiths and I do think the purpose was for EJ to get out of the state while TS tried to figure out a way to keep her out without getting herself in any legal trouble.

I don't believe that EJ just up and left and TS was not aware of where she was going or that EJ did lie to them and told them she was only taking Gabriel for a visit. I've posted before the many reasons why it's obvious that TS knew where she was going. If she didn't and EJ had her own plan, EJ would not have called TS from her new cell phone and kept up communication with her IMO. Maybe she just used them to get to SA by playing along with TS's plan and I still think they helped out financially to get her there. The renting of the room and the selling of the dogs was strictly something EJ had to do because she knew she wasn't coming back but there is no way she sold her computer and jewellery and got herself up to $2000 for spending money. And I have to believe that any innocent person who bought anything from EJ in those 9 days have come forward to LE.

I guess the big question here is whether she was just stringing TS along while she had a whole other plan of her own going on. And TS could help a lot in that regard by explaining things like fake ID's and new cell phones. Were those two things part of TS's plan for her to get out of the state and be able to communicate without being traced or were they all EJ? If TS cared at all about Gabriel, she would be entirely truthful about every conversation that they had and everything she knows. If she had gone to LE with a lawyer right in the beginning, she could have received immunity for her information IMO.

TS has obstructed and hindered the investigation into what ultimately happened here by her own desperate scrambling to try and save her own behind from the things that she did but I really don't think she knows what EJ ultimately did with Gabriel either.

 

[time]

I did say that Tammi helped. She aided and abetted. The false paternity/cousin thing, for example. No doubts.

Tammi was mighty helpful to Elizabeth in effecting her plan. That's why Elizabeth let her into her life. She was useful. And when she was no longer useful, she cut her out of her life.

Why did Eliz want to talk to Tammi from jail? "I just wanted to see what was going on."

I know I'm in the minority. I have to have a story to what happened that's based on the known facts, logical, reasonable, and 'fits' for/to me. May be utterly ridiculous to everyone else, but I need something that works for me, so I know where to look for Gabriel.

I'm not sure you are in the minority... I just see too much being read into it, but obviously you don't. I think Elizabeth might have even looked up to Tammi as a mother figure, I think she thought Tammi cared about her and had a rude awakening when Tammi and Jack interviewed with her. I think Tammi was a little more than 'helpful'. I don't think there is anyway Elizabeth came up with the idea of giving them Temporary Custody by Power of Attorney. The Smith's either did that to cover their but and/or to use as evidence to help them get custody of Gabriel. Sounds to me like something they already knew about also, I'd be curious if they did this in adopting "H" or if it had been researched when Tammi was trying to adopt other babies. And Tammi and Jack couldn't even bother to research Logan or ...??? Not buying it, they were using back handed tactics. That's more than just helping someone else with their plan.

 

[BeanE]

I've believed for some time that EJ went rogue on TS at some point during that road trip. I do think the original trip was planned by both EJ and The Smiths and I do think the purpose was for EJ to get out of the state while TS tried to figure out a way to keep her out without getting herself in any legal trouble.

I don't believe that EJ just up and left and TS was not aware of where she was going or that EJ did lie to them and told them she was only taking Gabriel for a visit. I've posted before the many reasons why it's obvious that TS knew where she was going. If she didn't and EJ had her own plan, EJ would not have called TS from her new cell phone and kept up communication with her IMO. Maybe she just used them to get to SA by playing along with TS's plan and I still think they helped out financially to get her there. The renting of the room and the selling of the dogs was strictly something EJ had to do because she knew she wasn't coming back but there is no way she sold her computer and jewellery and got herself up to $2000 for spending money. And I have to believe that any innocent person who bought anything from EJ in those 9 days have come forward to LE.

I guess the big question here is whether she was just stringing TS along while she had a whole other plan of her own going on. And TS could help a lot in that regard by explaining things like fake ID's and new cell phones. Were those two things part of TS's plan for her to get out of the state and be able to communicate without being traced or were they all EJ? If TS cared at all about Gabriel, she would be entirely truthful about every conversation that they had and everything she knows. If she had gone to LE with a lawyer right in the beginning, she could have received immunity for her information IMO.

TS has obstructed and hindered the investigation into what ultimately happened here by her own desperate scrambling to try and save her own behind from the things that she did but I really don't think she knows what EJ ultimately did with Gabriel either.

I was pretty sure for a while there that TayJay knew beforehand about the trip to SA, but in the past few days I've come to believe they didn't. At this point I can no longer see anything specific that says they knew she was leaving. But I do see specific things that point to Eliz planning to run, setting it up so nobody would know she was going, and then taking off.

With the money, it could work with $1,200 or so, and LE said she had some money from social services. The numbers work.

Tammi indeed did some illegal things. She admitted it herself. It's just how she rolls. Despicable person.

But Elizabeth is a despicable person too. Even more so.

I think Tammi loved Gabriel, but in her own objectifying way. He was more like an absolutely adorable doll that she just *had* to have, rather than a real person, a real human being with rights of his own. So when it came down to protecting herself because of the illegal things she knew and knows she did, and because she always puts herself first, she protected herself, and is leaving Gabriel endangered.

It's a horrible thing.

:cow:

 

[BeanE]

I'm not sure you are in the minority... I just see too much being read into it, but obviously you don't. I think Elizabeth might have even looked up to Tammi as a mother figure, I think she thought Tammi cared about her and had a rude awakening when Tammi and Jack interviewed with her. I think Tammi was a little more than 'helpful'. I don't think there is anyway Elizabeth came up with the idea of giving them Temporary Custody by Power of Attorney. The Smith's either did that to cover their but and/or to use as evidence to help them get custody of Gabriel. Sounds to me like something they already knew about also, I'd be curious if they did this in adopting "H" or if it had been researched when Tammi was trying to adopt other babies. And Tammi and Jack couldn't even bother to research Logan or ...??? Not buying it, they were using back handed tactics. That's more than just helping someone else with their plan.

I do see what you're saying, time, and I'm paying close attention to what you and others are saying, because I don't want to miss something.

To accept that theory, though, I'd have to see something that led me to believe that Elizabeth was just sort of blown in the wind, and I just can't. I see a smart, manipulative, self-seeking, self-protective person. Diabolically so. And a crazy rage to fuel all that.

And that makes me think I've missed something. I can't find something that'll work for me though yet.

But the more angles we cover, the more chances we have to uncover some info that just might be helpful.

:cow:

 

[Kamille]

I was pretty sure for a while there that TayJay knew beforehand about the trip to SA, but in the past few days I've come to believe they didn't. At this point I can no longer see anything specific that says they knew she was leaving. But I do see specific things that point to Eliz planning to run, setting it up so nobody would know she was going, and then taking off.

With the money, it could work with $1,200 or so, and LE said she had some money from social services. The numbers work.

Tammi indeed did some illegal things. She admitted it herself. It's just how she rolls. Despicable person.

But Elizabeth is a despicable person too. Even more so.

I think Tammi loved Gabriel, but in her own objectifying way. He was more like an absolutely adorable doll that she just *had* to have, rather than a real person, a real human being with rights of his own. So when it came down to protecting herself because of the illegal things she knew and knows she did, and because she always puts herself first, she protected herself, and is leaving Gabriel endangered.

It's a horrible thing.

:cow:

Personally IMO I think Gabriel was just a "gift" for their daughter rather than a real person with rights of his own.

But if you look at the timing of EJ leaving...

The hearing when LM was given joint custody and a specific date when EJ was to bring Gabriel to him was on the 17th. I believe TPS was at that hearing. Wasn't that where TPS said she was supposed to have lunch with LM, his father and EJ and he brushed her off? LM was supposed to get custody Sunday to Wednesday, the first day being on Sunday the 20th. The next day EJ is telling the Smiths that she wants to pick up Gabriel to take him to visit his father? Now you know they were going to question that. He was supposed to go to his father on the 20th and they knew it.

They still had Gabriel after that hearing so they must have believed that EJ would at least give him to them during her custody time until they could come up with a new plan to get LM to agree to the adoption.

They knew that she was in SA because she called them. And she supposedly told them she was getting "underground" help. I don't believe they would have given up that easily. If it was truly a surprise to them that she had taken off and they were no longer in the running to adopt Gabriel, IMO TPS would have gone to SA to try to convince her to come back. JMO.

 

[not_my_kids]

I'm sorry, if this is out there, I should know it. How long was EJ in Foster care?I know it was less than 12 years, since she went to her father at 12. I know it was in Boston...I have never seen it mentioned how long. TIA.

 

[TearsforCaylee]

PrinceSSa - please submit this page to LE. It is odd and the fact that it is hidden is hinky, in my opinion.

TIA,

Salem

About the new "BabyGabe Homesafe" FB page, on the left hand side, the creator mentions this:

I tried to make my name
first: bring baby gabe
last: home safe

facebook wouldn't let me have separate words... so it's
babygabe homesafe. A good manifestation


I think this is all just an innocent attempt to create yet another "Bring Baby Gabe Back Home" page ... there are many on FB.

 

[b4e]

About the new "BabyGabe Homesafe" FB page, on the left hand side, the creator mentions this:

I tried to make my name
first: bring baby gabe
last: home safe

facebook wouldn't let me have separate words... so it's
babygabe homesafe. A good manifestation


I think this is all just an innocent attempt to create yet another "Bring Baby Gabe Back Home" page ... there are many on FB.

We know that now. Please see the posts on this thread from overnight and first thing this morning. :cry::cry::cry:

 

[time]

I do see what you're saying, time, and I'm paying close attention to what you and others are saying, because I don't want to miss something.

To accept that theory, though, I'd have to see something that led me to believe that Elizabeth was just sort of blown in the wind, and I just can't. I see a smart, manipulative, self-seeking, self-protective person. Diabolically so. And a crazy rage to fuel all that.

And that makes me think I've missed something. I can't find something that'll work for me though yet.

But the more angles we cover, the more chances we have to uncover some info that just might be helpful.

:cow:

Well, I don't really agree, but don't feel bad as I can't really find anything that works for me either - not totally and that bugs the holy crap out of me.

 

[b4e]

Well, I don't really agree, but don't feel bad as I can't really find anything that works for me either - not totally and that bugs the holy crap out of me.

I think this case has everyone alternating between :cry: and :banghead:.

 

[time]

I think this case has everyone alternating between :cry: and :banghead:.

YES!

It reminds me of another case where I just have halfway concluded someone planned it so that it couldn't be figured out! Even if I try to go back to what is the simplest explanation, it seems there is no way to find one.

What really bugs me is that from Dec 8th - Dec 18th there is just way too much going on.

 

[BeanE]

Personally IMO I think Gabriel was just a "gift" for their daughter rather than a real person with rights of his own.

But if you look at the timing of EJ leaving...

The hearing when LM was given joint custody and a specific date when EJ was to bring Gabriel to him was on the 17th. I believe TPS was at that hearing. Wasn't that where TPS said she was supposed to have lunch with LM, his father and EJ and he brushed her off? LM was supposed to get custody Sunday to Wednesday, the first day being on Sunday the 20th. The next day EJ is telling the Smiths that she wants to pick up Gabriel to take him to visit his father? Now you know they were going to question that. He was supposed to go to his father on the 20th and they knew it.

They still had Gabriel after that hearing so they must have believed that EJ would at least give him to them during her custody time until they could come up with a new plan to get LM to agree to the adoption.

They knew that she was in SA because she called them. And she supposedly told them she was getting "underground" help. I don't believe they would have given up that easily. If it was truly a surprise to them that she had taken off and they were no longer in the running to adopt Gabriel, IMO TPS would have gone to SA to try to convince her to come back. JMO.

Yep the gift for H kind of talk they engaged in illustrates their objectification of Gabriel.

Yes they were at least at the courthouse, if not in the hearing room. I'm not sure they were right in the room. Let's say they were, and heard what the judge ordered on Logan's half of the custody and the days it was supposed to be.

I think she told them that she'd agreed that Logan could move his days up because he works during the week. That would make sense to them. Logan moved up the visit to Friday night through Monday morning because that's when he wasn't working.

Eliz was preparing on Dec 15 to run, getting things into place. Dec 17 the hearing didn't go as planned - the judge foiled that plan. Eliz must have been foaming-at-the-mouth mad. But, smart girl that she is, she was prepared just in case, and getting ready to run. She finalized her plans Dec 17/18, and took off that night.

I think TayJay initiated the contact with Eliz once she was gone, and that if they hadn't, Eliz probably wouldn't have contacted them. She was a woman on a mission, and doesn't feel that she needs anyone.

And Tammi did think she was still in the running. Even after Eliz was arrested Tammi thought/hoped she was still in the running. Hence the vicious trashing of Logan. Tammi didn't give up for a while after Eliz was arrested.

I agree Tammi would have gone to SA, but I think the reason she didn't is because Eliz wouldn't tell her where she was. She'd gone rogue, on her own, and I think she likes being a loner. Puts her in control with nobody to tell her what to do, or to tell her that what she's doing is wrong.

But.. even if I'm wrong, and they knew Eliz was taking off to SA, and if that was planned in advance specifically to 'change jurisdictions', it was still Elizabeth's plan to remove Gabriel from Logan. She was in control of that and effecting it. And she'd of done it even if Tammi didn't exist.

:cow:

Thanks for talking about this with me, Kamille. It's very helpful to me to sort of 'say out loud' what I've been ruminating on. (DH just keeps going "uh huh"... "uh huh"...)