AZ - Gabriel Johnson, 8 months, 26 Dec 2009 - last seen in Texas - #17

[jessicat]

I haven't had as much time as I'd like here lately so please forgive me, but what ever happened with the Twitter comment from the news guy yesterday about the Smiths having Gabriel after the call Elizabeth made to Logan?

Was wondering the same thing

 

[NewMommy09]

being "logical" I think that too much time has passed, they have no idea which dumpster, what area...so all is at a standstill

Snipped for space.

IMO, Logic is like beauty, it is in the eyes of the beholder. For me, it's "logical" to think that if baby Gabriel has not been found, he could very well still be alive. For me, it's "logical" to believe that if he's still alive, he could be found even years and years from now, as in other cases. And for me, it was "logical" for Elizabeth Smart's family to keep looking for her even when 9 whole months had passed (let alone just a few weeks). Perhaps the majority of cases don't end the way of the cases of Elizabeth Smart, Shawn Hornbeck, Shannon Dedrick, Jaycee Dugard, and others. But for me, it's "logical" that baby Gabriel could be another one of those cases.

IMO, I do not feel that my logic is any less valid than yours. There are other cases and facts that back my logic, just as there are other cases and facts that back your logic. I would respectfully ask that you not insinuate that those with hope are not being logical, as I personally find that a little bit offensive. There is nothing wrong with your difference of opinion, but I feel it could be portrayed in a friendlier way.

 

[BeanE]

If my "assumptions" are wrong then please show me some links or media on the family and friends and what they thought of this (IMHO unfit) mom??

FYI>>> I was asking questions...not really assuming

I have not seen friends of the young couple...I have not seen much from neighbors...I saw the "babysitter" who sat for her in the hotel but what about before, back in Arizona??

Logan desparately made every effort to protect Gabe. He did all the right things, and the system failed him and failed Gabe.

They did not live in a bubble. Gabe has a big, warm, wonderful, loving, smart, caring, involved family.

Read the court documents. Read the police reports. Logan reached out repeatedly to the system, and the system failed him, and failed Gabe.

Personally, I study the known facts about a case, get all details, and base my speculation on that, because my purpose in being here is to try to help the victims.

Otherwise, to me, it's just spinning a story for the sake of spinning a story, and does nothing to help the endangered child.

A forum would indeed be great.

 

[katiemadonna]

<sigh> as I said...they have NOT been on the tv..and in this media driven age I find that kind of unusual in itself

we have no way of knowing...so I asked had they been interviewed?

or is there "not many" to interview??

Sometimes families in turmoil , in abusive situations do NOT socialize much...they keep to themselves....stepping around the "elephant in the living room"....maybe this was something like that?

or if there are people close to them, it would be good to hear from them?

I can only guess but LE asked Logan not to talk so maybe that is why others aren't either? There were a lot of ppl at the vigil and I am sure not all of then were strangers. There seemed to be many family members there.

 

[dini1976]

I can still see them all....

she must've hit private while cleaning up her pictures.

 

[captdj]

ALright, since I helped us get off track, the least i can do is help us get back on before I go clean house, so to speak.
I saw an article/blog yesterday, that said something about LE needing to check the hotel surveillance footage. It sounded as if the writer had reason to believe they hadn't done it.
The person they were quoting had a name that started with G. I was trying to get kids ready and haven't been able to find it to read it now. Does anyone know what article and where I can find it? TIA.

WOW that my greatest fear....most videos are only saved 30 days so if LE doesnt have them all collected by now... it may be too late.
Its hard to go around the corner without being on a camera somewhere and locating all of these takes a lot of foot work....

 

[BeanE]

Logical.....as you have said EJ and Logans family and friends have not been all over the TV so how could we know what they did or did not do?

Maybe they did intervene and we just aren't privy to it? We would have no way of knowing IMO

Thank you, katie. The button wasn't enough.

 

[katiemadonna]

I also believe that it sometimes "takes a village" to help find a missing little boy

 

[not_my_kids]

Just because there were no young friends and other young parents, doesn't mean there were no friends. I socialize and I have friends, yet to look at the number of friends my own age, you would think I have no friends at all, since I can't stand most people my age. A lot of them are like EJ, and I choose to avoid them.

So, I see some friends, and yes the majority of them seem to be older. EJ is a different story, I think that she chose not to have people in her life that wouldn't live in her world. Since she is the only one capable of living in her world, and believing her own lies and justifications, she would have kicked people out of her world the minute she figured out that they weren't just like her.

Add disclaimer: MOO.

 

[jessicat]

Call me a little weird..but...I find it disturbing on TS FB page, which when I search her it just comes up with info, friends and pages she is a fan of. Anyway...I find it disturbing to some degree that on the "about me" she has "fan page" TPS/Gabriel Johnson. I don't know it just sounds inappropriate that its a "fan page" and not a "group" I don't know what the diff is but it just sounds weird..like she has "fans"

 

[BeanE]

I can only guess but LE asked Logan not to talk so maybe that is why others aren't either? There were a lot of ppl at the vigil and I am sure not all of then were strangers. There seemed to be many family members there.

You have an excellent sense of logic

 

[AZlawyer]

I'm kinda thinking TS said something like "ok, LM won't sign, here's what we do. While you still have custody, you need to change your jurisdiction, so go to Texas. I will get you some support" - BUT you can't ever tell. It won't be kidnapping cuz you still have custody. Now that everything has blown up in their faces and it appears EJ might be facing murder charges and TS could be implicated, TS is probably saying something like - keep your mouth shut or this is going to be really bad for you and there is NO NEED to tell where Gabe is because you are going to do 20 years regardless of whether or not Gabe is recovered.

All speculation on my part of course - but TS is the one that brought up "changing jurisdictions." And for the life of me, I can not understand any attorney that would tell EJ she is going to do 20 years, no matter what. In a family law case, 20 years is almost unheard of and if EJ were to help LE locate Gabe, I don't see any way in he?? she would do much time at all. Maybe required to do 6 months and get some counseling and not be around the baby. However, the longer this goes on, the more severe the consequences.

TS is NOT helping matters and I think, as a POI, she should be forbidden from talking to EJ. I think EJ may still trust her (although that seems to be falling apart, thank goodness) and TS continues to feed EJ nonsense!

All of this is just my opinion - nothing more.

Salem

Well, one situation for which the presumptive sentence would be 17 years is if she took Gabriel for the purpose of keeping him away from his dad at a time when the custody order did not permit her to do so (which we know she did) and partly for the purpose of placing the father in fear for Gabriel's life or safety (which we know she did). If this situation were aggravated by her threatening actual infliction of injury to Gabriel (which we know she did) or having an accomplice (hmmmm), she could be looking at 24 years.

If she then sold Gabriel and/or had him "adopted" using papers with Logan's forged signature or false court documents (e.g., showing a different father and HIS consent or showing Logan's rights were terminated), the presumptive sentence (depending on whether it was a sale or fake "adoption" and what kinds of docs were faked) would be a total of 18.5 to 19.83 years (with potential for aggravation as noted above).

If she had not stupidly threatened to harm or claimed to have actually killed Gabriel, the presumptive sentence would have been 4 to 5.33 years even assuming a sale or forged-doc adoption took place.

 

[NewMommy09]

I can only guess but LE asked Logan not to talk so maybe that is why others aren't either? There were a lot of ppl at the vigil and I am sure not all of then were strangers. There seemed to be many family members there.

I just talked to an old high school friend and she is local and told me she went to that vigil. I wish I could have gone.
I think you make a good point, it's been reported that Logan was asked by LE not to talk to the media, and there's a good chance that his family was as well. Also, this family has seen how hard people have jumped on TPS (whether she deserves it or not) and frankly, they may not feel very comfortable getting out in the public. JMO, of course.

 

[Gin]

Call me a little weird..but...I find it disturbing on TS FB page, which when I search her it just comes up with info, friends and pages she is a fan of. Anyway...I find it disturbing to some degree that on the "about me" she has "fan page" TPS/Gabriel Johnson. I don't know it just sounds inappropriate that its a "fan page" and not a "group" I don't know what the diff is but it just sounds weird..like she has "fans"

I think I get what you're saying. That does sound odd. On the other hand, it's not terribly surprising that TS is a #1 fan of herself and loves attention. It's pretty disgusting, though, that she appears to use GJ to self promote.

 

[not_my_kids]

AZLawyer, is there any legal way that the courts could keep a POI from speaking to an incarcerated suspect awaiting trial in the same case?

 

[mydailyopinions]

Hmmm....I am trying to not make this "personal" at any one here...I am not posting false postive posts cause I don't feel positive

again this is a thread for facts, speculation

sorry but I didn't think that Caylee was with the babysitter in Mexico or adopted out either...I don't think Stacy Peterson or Susan Powell are all in some nunnery in Bejing

if your beliefs are strong then whatever I say is not going to sway you, so far I have not seen much here to sway me...

I feel the TPS stuff is window dressing here and that at this point T herself doesn't know much more than we do

tracing what Elizabeth did on her "journey"..that might be usefull

I think that for me the "medicine dropper" pics and pics of Gabriel looking groggy were very telling....if I was to say "final answer" mine would be that he overdosed and somehow his heartless biomom got rid of his little body

being "logical" I think that too much time has passed, they have no idea which dumpster, what area...so all is at a standstill

this could boil down to "make a deal" with prosecution??

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

in regards to the friends and family...I have NOT seen any young friends, other young parents etc didn't they socialize?? what about neighbors ? It is as if they lived in a vacuum...

did Logan's family "babysit">? why didn't they step in if Elizabeth was letting Gabe sit for 5 hours with dirty diapers?? did she ever take him for walks?? did she go to parks in Arizona with him?? was that a usual routine for her?? did other young moms see here there??
what about babysitters??

and yeah if people saw this going on did they call social services?? was anything done??? I just feel that in most cases there are neighbors and "friends" with their faces on tv...here we have only TPS over and over and over

The facts of this case are as follows:

Gabriel is missing
Logan does not have Gabriel
EJ does not have Gabriel, yet claims she gave Gabriel to another couple
TS and JS are persons of interest in the case and have not been cleared
LE does not know if Gabriel is alive
LE does not know if Gabriel was given to another couple.

As long as these facts remain then we should follow any and every lead, or speculation within these facts.
With that said, I have a real bad feeling about this whole case. But I do think that TPS and her husband know much more than they are admitting, and that people did see EJ with Gabriel, yet haven't seen the information posted anywhere to know exactly what they did see. This is exactly why I think the fliers are very important. Even if the worse case scenario is that Gabriel is dead, someone may have seen an alive Gabriel in his mother's car sitting at a gas station during the time in question. This could potentially help to locate him as well, and unless that information is put out there, potential witnesses will not know to come forward.
The only logical thing to do right now IMHO is to follow LE and assume that he could be dead, and that he could be alive. One or the other is the truth.

 

[Gin]

well I know this won't be popular...

but the first time Logan found Gabe with a dirty diaper for 5 hours was the time to do something

and yes, he should have pursued charges back when she had her violent outburst

hindsight is great I realize...but there were times when he could have done something

as far as the friends go...this was a question and an observation on my part

I do "speculate" that this was a pretty isolated little family...maybe Elizabeth wanted it that way, she had things to hide *namely the way she treated her baby

Opinions and philosophies are noted.
There is probably not a serious crime that ever been committed that did not have some accompanying "hindsight" from those observing, as well as from the direct victims.

 

[not_my_kids]

well I know this won't be popular...

but the first time Logan found Gabe with a dirty diaper for 5 hours was the time to do something

and yes, he should have pursued charges back when she had her violent outburst

hindsight is great I realize...but there were times when he could have done something

as far as the friends go...this was a question and an observation on my part

I do "speculate" that this was a pretty isolated little family...maybe Elizabeth wanted it that way, she had things to hide *namely the way she treated her baby

You know, although we don't agree on much, I do wonder what was done when the obvious signs of neglect were seen. But, maybe Logan did love EJ at that point and thought that talking about it and bringing it up to her would be enough. We don't know how many times that happened or what Logan did about it. I think he didn't pursue anything on the apartment destruction because it was already pursued, and she did receive the diversion program and have to be arrested and go through the courts. Since the landlord wouldn't have known right away, I assume that it was on Logan's advice that they took her to jail, since he could have said all the things were hers and kept her out of jail.
Moo.
(See, it's not personal, if we're going to discuss, I can get into that.)

 

[NewMommy09]

I would like to again ask that anyone who wants to help distribute fliers, speak up. We especially need volunteers in San Antonio, but no matter where you live, it can't hurt to get fliers up. We have some members of Gabe's family that are willing to call in orders and pay for the fliers. If you are interested in helping, you can send me a PM with the address/phone#/email for your local copy and print shop (Kwik Kopy, FedEx/Kinko's, etc) and I will get that information to the person who is placing those orders. I will then let the volunteer know that they can go pick their order up.

Thanks in advance to all who have helped in any way.

 

[Ives]

well, I am going to pick up my fliers in a few, and then, I have to go box hunting, sooo, where ever I look for boxes, There will be a sign!! and wherever else I stop, LOL