AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #10

[KaylynnCouture]

For the locals..

(from the Find Isabel facebook page)

 

[Stash777]

I know we don't know this for sure, but if it's true that Isa normally slept with her brother(s)...does anyone else find it odd that a 6yo girl would sleep with a 10 or 14yo brother? I only have girls so I don't know if that would be normal or not??

I don't have brothers and only have a stepson (no other children), but I really don't find this odd. Our closest friends have 2 sons (share a room) and a daughter (own room) and the daughter who is the youngest "sneaks" into the boys' room most nights because she feels safer with them in the same room (and bed). Growing up, my younger sister would sneak into my bed most nights because she felt safer even though we shared a room (to clarify I am female). I really don't see much of a difference between either scenario except for the gender issue. JMO

 

[KaylynnCouture]

Not sure if this has already been stated but Becky and Sergio will be on The Today Show at 10:00am eastern time tomorrow morning.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I understand and of course I was not implying anything. But, for now I am going to bed and I am sleeping with my dog. But, I think we can all agree that is okay.

BBM
I don't know.... is your dog male... or female?:waitasec:

 

[Patty G]

Not sure if this has already been stated but Becky and Sergio will be on The Today Show at 10:00am eastern time tomorrow morning.

On the east coast, the Today Show ends at 10:00 EDT. In Florida, I show "Daytime" at 10:00 AM. The Today Show picks up again at Noon.

 

[taagean]

Not sure if this has already been stated but Becky and Sergio will be on The Today Show at 10:00am eastern time tomorrow morning.

A comment on the FB page (Find Isabel) by Betsy Rivera stated that the interview was taped, will not be live.
Wonder if it may have been taped in the house and the item that LE was seen bringing in could have been a camera. That wouldn't explain why the family was brought in separately though.

 

[SmoothOperator]

Becky and Sergio will be on the Today show tomorrow it will air 7am our time. Please tune in and support them.

https://www.facebook.com/FindIsabel

 

[MsFacetious]

I do not think it is odd that siblings sleep with each other or in the same room. And just think if she had been sleeping with her brothers that night,she would still be with us. jmo

Unfortunately... there is no guarantee she would not have disappeared even if she was sleeping with her brothers.
Would they have woken up? Would they have pretended to be asleep? Would they have fought to prevent her abduction?
Kids have been abducted while sharing a bed with a sibling, or even in a room full of other kids. It would not be the first time.

BBM, they do have sexual thoughts at that age. I speak from experience. It is not a good idea to have girls sleeping with boys, IMO.

My Aunt felt this way... she was sexually abused by her father for years.
She had one son and four daughters.
On vacation, she would sleep in one room with her daughters and her husband would be in another room with his stepson.
She allowed "the guys" to go places together, camping, hunting, etc. But her husband couldn't even take the girls to lunch without her.

Her husband raped her son for ten years or more... photographing it as well... until one of his friends told when he did it to him as well.

So that means that more than 60% are not. Or rather 57%.

I hate statistics... just because they never seem to go the way they are supposed to in MY case.
My daughter had a 1 in 5,000 chance of making it to full term. That was BEFORE her twin was miscarried. She's here and she's healthy.

Now that she IS here... she has around an 80% chance of being abused during her life, since she has a disability.
Typical girls generally have about a 25% chance of being abused.

http://kyasap.brinkster.net/Portals/0/pdfs/Disabilitiesandsexualassault.pdf

We generally end up being in the "minority" so statistics don't tend to mean very much to me.
Even if 90% of kids were abused by strangers... it wouldn't make me feel more comfortable about my child sleeping with an older relative.

Just like I told my cousin when she was given a 20% chance after her brain cancer diagnosis. Somebody has to be the 20%.

I actually did a bit of reading on this... this is from memory from many years ago, so a bit of salt applies... As I recall, the theory is that people are genetically programmed to have an aversion to sexual activity with those they are raised with. This is why we, as humans, even have the taboo of incest... it avoids genetic inbreeding. So if a boy and girl are raised together, in close proximaty, it is unusual for there to be any sexual activity as they get older. It's not blood relation, it's the proximaty. So this would hold for a brother/sister, if they are raised together. If they are raised apart, it is more likely for an incestuous relationship to develop. If cousins are raised in close proximaty, the same thing holds.

I ran across this in an article discussing the Jewish Kibbutz (sp?), as many of them had problems when the (unrelated) children grew up in such close proximaty they later didn't want to marry. It "felt" incestous to them.

Not sure if there are stats out there, but I suspect most of the blood relative molestations occur where the relative did not spend years growing up in the same household. Of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions, but I do think the exceptions to this are rare.

MOO, YMMY, ETC, ETC

I really do believe this is true in many cases... depending on the person.
I grew up with a family I'm not biologically related to, but I consider them "cousins" or even "siblings."
One male "cousin" is a few years older than me and we've always been very close.

Several years ago he told me he kept getting divorced because he compared every woman to me... and they never measured up. :thud:

I was beyond speechless. I adore this guy. But he was far more like a brother to me. He didn't see it that way though.
He would have seen nothing wrong with us getting married... but to me it would have just been too "weird." :twocents:

 

[Angleena]

There is supposed to be. But if there are other circumstances in a child's life, then confusion reigns. And puberty is confusing and stimulating. When a little boy starts feeling the normal feelings of the hormones of puberty,and feels aroused, it is better if there are no little girls sleeping in his bed, relatives or otherwise. imo Why put him through that kind of confusion and temptation?

I agree. But I also have to add that if a child is inclined to act out sexually against a sibling, they are going to do that whether the other sibling is sleeping in the same bed or not (Moo). I know someone whose son at age 12 did molest his 6 year old sister in a closet over several months. The children had their own rooms and did not sleep together. Just from direct knowledge in knowing the mother personally (not my favorite person in the world, former best friend from grade school), I would say that there would be more concern of something like that happening if the home environment is unstable or the adults in the home are not setting a good example in their own personal relationships...just saying. My gut and personal observation also tells me that there are generations of incest in this family history. So that's my first hand knowledge of such activity.

 

[bessie]

Is there any evidence to suggest incest was a factor? If so, will someone please direct me to where it is reported. If none exists, then the topic is off limits.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

\\
I really do believe this is true in many cases... depending on the person.
I grew up with a family I'm not biologically related to, but I consider them "cousins" or even "siblings."
One male "cousin" is a few years older than me and we've always been very close.

Several years ago he told me he kept getting divorced because he compared every woman to me... and they never measured up. :thud:

I was beyond speechless. I adore this guy. But he was far more like a brother to me. He didn't see it that way though.
He would have seen nothing wrong with us getting married... but to me it would have just been too "weird." :twocents:

In high school, I had a major crush on a male friend. Shortly after graduation he told me that he never dated much because we all felt like sisters to him. So not what I wanted to hear... !

 

[gitana1]

When I was a preschooler, I thought it was the greatest thing in the world to sleep in my big brother's room. He was 11.5 years older than me, so when I was four he was 15/16. He had bunk beds, and he would take the top bunk with me in the bottom bunk. I remember waking up with nightmares and he would comfort me (snakes... I remember the nightmare to this day).

He died when I was six. This is one of the few memories I have of him.

We have all boys, but when they transitioned to real beds we intentionally got them full size beds instead of twin beds, so they could sleep together if they wanted. One has a full size bunk bed - THAT was hard to find! Again, so all three of them could sleep together if they wanted.

This made me tear up. I'm so sorry you lost your brother!!!!

I actually did a bit of reading on this... this is from memory from many years ago, so a bit of salt applies... As I recall, the theory is that people are genetically programmed to have an aversion to sexual activity with those they are raised with. This is why we, as humans, even have the taboo of incest... it avoids genetic inbreeding. So if a boy and girl are raised together, in close proximaty, it is unusual for there to be any sexual activity as they get older. It's not blood relation, it's the proximaty. So this would hold for a brother/sister, if they are raised together. If they are raised apart, it is more likely for an incestuous relationship to develop. If cousins are raised in close proximaty, the same thing holds.

I ran across this in an article discussing the Jewish Kibbutz (sp?), as many of them had problems when the (unrelated) children grew up in such close proximaty they later didn't want to marry. It "felt" incestous to them.

Not sure if there are stats out there, but I suspect most of the blood relative molestations occur where the relative did not spend years growing up in the same household. Of course, there are ALWAYS exceptions, but I do think the exceptions to this are rare.

MOO, YMMY, ETC, ETC

I have talked about this before on other threads. It is called the childhood familiarity theory. It has been well-studied.

I find it absurd to imagine that a normal brother could be "tempted" by his sister, regardless of the brother's age or hormones if she was in the same bed or if he had seen her naked. I ran around naked in front of my older brothers all the time for all of my childhood. They would just yell, "Eww, Mom, she's naked again!"

Only the seriously dysfunctional would be aroused by a younger sibling. But it is understandable that those who have been abused would fear the possibility occurring with their own kids. It's also really sad to me, that some, based on their traumatic histories, must see danger where others see innocence.

God bless everyone who has experienced such pain.

And now, Isabel, baby, where are you?

 

[pieper4]

I kind of doubt the "parcel" taken into the home today was a camera for the taped interview. TV cameras are quite large... although a home-cam could have been used for stock footage. Even then, it's unlikely that the show would not be on site to direct the footage. My simplistic hunch is that the family members simply retrieved some personal items as long as they were in the home "re-enacting" per MSM reports. What was carried in? Could have been as simple as a PD camera to document the re-enactment.

 

[cluciano63]

I am almost getting to where I hope this is someone close to the family, as a stranger, if no DNA has been left behind that can be matched, may be past the point of catching now...as it seems as though something is drawing LE back towards the source, not further outward...if they are wrong, they may be out of luck. JMO

 

[mrsu]

Wow. I didnt mean to start a debate about the sleeping arrangements, I really was just wondering. I do not have an older brother, and I have 3 daughters so I didn't know if that was something most families were comfortable with or not. I would love to know if this was the case, and like mentioned above, why was she in her room that night?

 

[GutFeeling!]

So that means that more than 60% are not. Or rather 57%.

No it means that just over 20 percent are abused by strangers - and of that 20+ percent strangers can include mum's latest boyfriend.

 

[gitana1]

Wow. I didnt mean to start a debate about the sleeping arrangements, I really was just wondering. I do not have an older brother, and I have 3 daughters so I didn't know if that was something most families were comfortable with or not. I would love to know if this was the case, and like mentioned above, why was she in her room that night?

It's okay. I think it's more typical in European families and families in other countries/regions, like Africa, or parts of Asia.

And I think a sudden change in sleeping habits could be important. Any change in Isabel's routine right before she disappeared could be important. Right? Did someone tell her to sleep elsewhere that night? If so, why?

But, the only place it has been reported as "sources say Isabel usually slept with her brothers" is Nancy Grace. And since, as many of us have seen over the years with these cases, her show often gets facts very, very wrong, I think most of us are taking that report with a grain of salt.

I think the debate occurred in part because with so little info, we are running out of things to talk about here.

Regardless, I can't get this case out of my head. I have to keep coming back here. Today I felt a stab of anxiety and hopelessness about the case. I'm usually able to stay pretty dispassionate about these cases. I don't ponder what may be happening to the child. I try to concentrate on other details.

But Isabel strikes a chord with me. She has such a radiant innocence about her. She reminds me of many children I know or have known. She actually reminds me of myself at that age, or rather a composite of me and my then best friend, who tragically, did not have a good life at all.

We were like little twins in the neighborhood but her life was horrific. And what ending up happening to her was appalling.

I guess I see all of this when I look at Isabel - The happiness and innocence of childhood, the could have beens with kids who don;t have it good, and for that reason, recently it's been hard to keep what may be happening to her out there or what did happen, from creeping out of my subconscious. I see her face in the photos, especially the one where she is kind of sideways and just smiling this very happy smile, eyes twinkling and an open-mouthed smile of joy, and I can't reconcile that with any kind of horrible end to her life.

It's such a waste in these cases of promising, precious lives, when they end up how most of them do. I hate thinking of a child who appeared so happy and well-cared for, so adored and cherished, suddenly being ripped from that life and facing the unspeakable.

But, I keep coming back.

 

[butterfly1978]

Do we know if they brought in tracking dogs to track her scent, I know its probably a dumb question but I didn't read were they had..Only were they brought a dog in that made a hit, to me that was a cadavor dog or something...

The criminal record for the cousin/uncle doesn't show any crimes of assult or anything like that really just misdeemenor crimes, so thats not a red flag to me, but his interview does raise a red flag.

I dont think that the family would be cooperating with LE (letting them search without a warrant, letting the son go alone with LE, ect) if they were involved, theres no way they could think that they could fool LE if they were involved. I would think a guilt person/persons would have a lawyer by now and refuse to cooperate such as Terri Horman.

I do wonder why they are asking for footage from the ball game, if they know they were there, unless they beleive they were followed home and are wanting to see if someone looks suspisious. Another thing that bothers me is if this IS a stranger abduction and the 3 girl who were assulted are even remotely connected why is LE NOT making a plea to parents to keep a closer eye on thier children and put out a warning.

One more thing then I will shut up. I wonder if there are any traffic cameras near their home because from what my imagination can picture of this neighborhood there would be traffic lights and possably they could run liscences plates of the vehicals that were in the area that night. Does anyone know or is there a way to find out if there are traffic camera's?

 

[Onceinla]

Hi all, first time posting, long time lurker (super long!). Never really had a need to post..you guys cover everything! But I did want say is that my first thought on LE bringing something that seemed covered or hidden into the house was that it was a tool of some sort or equipment. Like a black light, camera, drill?

Also, do we know if the uncle/cousin has a criminal record in another state? From his fb, looks like he travels around quite a bit. tia

 

[katydid23]

Good question Butterfly.

I wondered about scent dogs too. Especially after seeing that 6th man hiding in the shadows in that video they released. [ might be a moot point now.]

But still, it made me wonder, did the perp carry her somewhere ? I mean he couldn't pull his car up too close--- for fear of being seen or heard.