GUILTY AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #10

[Lava]

Things we now know:

- No ransom demands, no signs that this is a kidnapping for ransom
- Parents took a polygraph and maybe others
- LE still focusing heavily on family - enough that the family feels really frustrated

 

[Gardenlady]

Thanks for the summaries, all!

 

[Patty G]

Transcripts from HLN shows Wed., 5/2/12

Jane
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/02/ijvm.01.html

Nancy
Odd, transcript still not available

 

[~n/t~]

I hope the interview will be posted online later. It was so good to read about Isabel.

She sounds so much like little Tori Stafford. Little tomboy but girly girly (I mean this in a very loving way). Tori was the same way. She would be wearing a pretty dress and picking up worms in the dirt. Isabel sounds like she loved playing with her brothers but yet loved to do her hair, nails.

:cry:

I hope she's safe. It's so depressing knowing there are no leads in this case.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

This made me tear up. I'm so sorry you lost your brother!!!!



Only the seriously dysfunctional would be aroused by a younger sibling. But it is understandable that those who have been abused would fear the possibility occurring with their own kids. It's also really sad to me, that some, based on their traumatic histories, must see danger where others see innocence.

God bless everyone who has experienced such pain.

And now, Isabel, baby, where are you?

SBM BBM

Thank you.

RE the portion of your post in bold... While they are the exception, the seriously disfuctional do exist. My thoughts and prayers are also with those who have experienced pain at their hands.

 

[~n/t~]

What gets me, is LE told NBC the parents took a polygraph but LE wouldn't say this at a press conference.

Any thoughts on that Patty? Why would they withhold that information? They just had to say yes without revealing the results. Strange.

 

[~n/t~]

I wondered about that. He is ten so he could provide valuable information.

Kids are usually quite informative.

Maybe the 10 year old wasn't home that night? Just speculation on my part.

 

[TxLady2]

I can't believe the first thing on people's mind is incest. It is nuts. I have 3 sons who have 6 neices and nephews and to suggest that because they are their uncles they would molest and even do worse to them is really making me mad. My gosh, this is family. I am sorry that some have had bad experiences, but that is not the norm. In my family we are all protective of each other. To even think of another family member sexually is beyond my comprehension. I think we as outsiders should at least give the family the benefit of the doubt. I think speculation is getting out of hand. jmo

Incest is an ugly thing and I don't like to think about it, but it does happen, probably more than we like to think it does. However, I haven't seen anyone mention incest.... just that it seems odd or strange that a young girl with her own room would need to sleep with her brothers.
I had two older brothers and the way my parents raised us was to not invite temptation. Boys are curious, and some girls are as well. There is no need to put them into a situation where that curiosity could lead to something else. As Barney Fife used to say.... just "nip it in the bud."

 

[Patty G]

Any thoughts on that Patty? Why would they withhold that information? They just had to say yes without revealing the results. Strange.

My intitial verbal response to Misha when I heard LE state on national TV that the family took a poly is: "well that sucks, so much for sharing info with the local media when they asked for 2 weeks if the family took a poly."

 

[TxLady2]

That may be true, but not toward their 6 year old baby sister. jmo

Yes.... some do!! I don't know the statistics, and not going to look it up, but girls have been molested by brothers, even by fathers. Not just stepfathers. It DOES HAPPEN! The desire for gratification supercedes their familial ties.

I am NOT saying this was the situation in the Celis family, but it is a possibility.

 

[~n/t~]

Is there any evidence to suggest incest was a factor? If so, will someone please direct me to where it is reported. If none exists, then the topic is off limits.

Bumping for those who missed it.

 

[curiousc]

My intitial verbal response to Misha when I heard LE state on national TV that the family took a poly is: "well that sucks, so much for sharing info with the local media when they asked for 2 weeks if the family took a poly."

I am getting a recap of the interview on here as I have not watched it. But it seems interesting that the mom and dad did not come out and say that they passed the poly even though they did make a comment that LE is putting attention on them.

 

[Lava]

My opinions on the incest discussion:

Keep in mind that incest between siblings rarely means a romantic attraction. It is often times sexual, about experimenting, and in some cases about control. Sibling incest is the most common type of incest, so when we are talking about children sharing a bed, its completely logical for someones mind to think about possible incest.

In cases with older children, who should know better, it has been thought that incest is a way for them to control younger siblings, particularly in houses where male figures are absent, either physically or emotionally.

So, it really isn't fair to be mad at people for thinking about incest - it is pretty common, it doesn't always have to deal with a dysfunctional person - sometimes it is an environmental effect (not that it makes it any less horrible).

 

[~n/t~]

Polygraphs are not the end all be all, imo. Even if they failed, it doesn't necessarily mean involvement. It all depends on who administered the polygraph, when it was given, what questions were asked.

If I'm not mistaken, Jessica Lunsford's grandma failed a polygraph and she had nothing to do with the crime.

It's a good investigative tool but it doesn't always mean deception, imo.


I hope they're not focusing on the parents because of any negative results that may have resulted from a LDT.



ETA: Adding link http://www.sptimes.com/2005/03/16/news_pf/Tampabay/New_lead_in_case_of_m.shtml

 

[Gardenlady]

Yes, and little Breeann Rodriguez's father said he failed a poly during that investigation, and he is, of course, innocent of harming his little girl.

Anyone find a link for the Today interview yet? I'm not having any luck here.

 

[FrayedKnot]

Regarding the rumors as to sleeping arrangements;

Is it possible that although Isa usually slept in her own room, she had recently been bunking with her brothers because there was a houseguest? (the uncle/cousin)

Which would make it even more unusual for Isa to be in her own room again the night she disappeared, since it appears the uncle/cousin slept there that night, too, because (?) he was at the house before 911 was even called.

So who DID put Isa to bed?

All of this is ASSUMING Isa did not usually sleep in her room, at least not lately. And ASSUMING that night it was unusual for Isa to be in her own room. And ASSUMING the uncle/cousin had been staying with the family and that he was the uncle that was at the home so early Sat. morning.

Just trying to flesh out some other possibilities. There isn't much to go on. All total speculation! MOO

Who put Isa to bed?

In what room?

Who slept at the house that night?

Was it unusual for Isa to sleep in her own room? Was she even actually in her room that night or was it staged?

Was JM staying there in recent weeks or just that night or did he even sleep there at all?

Was JM there Sat morning before the 911 call and if so, how did he get there so fast and why would he even have been called? Again, was he staying there?


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[Patty G]

Today Interview - 5/3/12

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47276602#47276602

http://video.today.msnbc.msn.com/today/47276606#47276606

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I can't believe the first thing on people's mind is incest. It is nuts. I have 3 sons who have 6 neices and nephews and to suggest that because they are their uncles they would molest and even do worse to them is really making me mad. My gosh, this is family. I am sorry that some have had bad experiences, but that is not the norm. In my family we are all protective of each other. To even think of another family member sexually is beyond my comprehension. I think we as outsiders should at least give the family the benefit of the doubt. I think speculation is getting out of hand. jmo

ITA!

I am an incest survivor but I never bring my own personal experiences into cases and automatically assume it is happening when I have nothing whatsoever to base it on. I dont do it because that can cloud my own rational thinking.

I put my own childhood issues aside and look at the case clearly based on what evidence is known in a case and in so many cases there is not one shred of evidence or even a hint of incestual behavior, including this one.

All I see as of now is Isa has a very close knit family who seems to love her dearly.

As far as aunts and uncles........we have those in my family and they are nothing but a wonderful extention of our family unit, and I would trust my life, the lives of my children, and the lives of my grandchildren with each one of them.

I have given this family support from the very beginning and will continue to do so until I learn otherwise.

IMO

 

[FrayedKnot]

Didn't Miguel start the report by saying HER PARENTS PUT HER TO BED FRIDAY NIGHT?????

I can't rewind on this TV!!!!!


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[curiousc]

Polygraphs are not the end all be all, imo. Even if they failed, it doesn't necessarily mean involvement. It all depends on who administered the polygraph, when it was given, what questions were asked.

If I'm not mistaken, Jessica Lunsford's grandma failed a polygraph and she had nothing to do with the crime.

It's a good investigative tool but it doesn't always mean deception, imo.


I hope they're not focusing on the parents because of any negative results that may have resulted from a LDT.

Well, it is likely that they failed to mention their results but I would think that if they did pass they would have come out and said on national tv. There are times when a poly is not effective, but there are many times when it is. It is hard to know what is the case here, however, are the stories of the parents consistent, etc. would also play a part in how LE is investigating this case.

I would like to know what is on Moore's video? Has LE seen something that does not match the timeline and/or stories the parents have told them?

The good thing is, it doesn't seem like the parents have lawyered up from the account of yesterdays going-ons with the detectives, parents and brother at the house.