AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #18

[Patty G]

The rooms are labeled from the floorplan that LE was using. That's all I had to go by. :waitasec:

I thought that floor plan was generated by the media. LE hasn't released anything with regards to what they are using.

 

[FrayedKnot]

She's a pretty 20-something young girl...not exactly the type that's going to investigate things outside her home in the middle of the night (for her). We all come from a different frame of reference than these young people do. It was Saturday morning, she may have been out late the night before.

I am most certainly not a pretty twenty-something girl, but I live in a small, intown apartment building in a residential neighborhood.

In other words, the neighborhood is quiet, and my apartment complex is small with a common courtyard that has pool and fountains.

But I can hear my neighbor's conversations taking place on their patios, even if I am inside. And this is with the fountains running and people in the pool.

I have also heard dogs barking and sometimes louder than normal voices, and never once have I gotten up to check.

The neighbor said the voices were not loud or frantic. And the dogs were ALWAYS barking. I wouldn't have spied out my window either, but probably grumbled and pulled a pillow over my head.


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[~n/t~]

The National Center for Missing & Exploited Children recently changed Isabel's case from endangered missing to non family abduction.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...en_US&orgPrefix=NCMC&caseNum=1193092&seqNum=1

Is this something they do at the advice of LE or is it at their discretion based on information in the media?

Then we have the FBI website that is also quite confusing because we have Hailey Dunn listed as a kidnapping but Haleigh Cummings, Lindsay Baum, Aliyah Lunsford, Kyrion Horman and other children listed as missing persons.

What does it all mean? Is missing person considered possible family involvement? Is kidnapping considered non family involvement? Or am I making too much of the labelling and it really doesn't make a difference?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/@@wanted-group-listing

One thing is for sure, it becomes very frustrating and sad that so many of these cases that we followed...some for months....others for years, remain unresolved and these children are still "missing".

 

[~n/t~]

I am most certainly not a pretty twenty-something girl, but I live in a small, intown apartment building in a residential neighborhood.

In other words, the neighborhood is quiet, and my apartment complex is small with a common courtyard that has pool and fountains.

But I can hear my neighbor's conversations taking place on their patios, even if I am inside. And this is with the fountains running and people in the pool.

I have also heard dogs barking and sometimes louder than normal voices, and never once have I gotten up to check.

The neighbor said the voices were not loud or frantic. And the dogs were ALWAYS barking. I wouldn't have spied out my window either, but probably grumbled and pulled a pillow over my head.


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She said the dogs were barking like crazy and it was unusual barking. Even her own dog barked and that's what woke her.

 

[white rabbit]

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/justice-jeanine/index.html

justice with jeanine pirro...

grainnedhu, i stand corrected. she says "i didn't come check on her" and then "i should have gone and checked on her"...

 

[FrayedKnot]

ok...but come on...do we really think that a dectective is going to tell their big mouthed untrustworthy wife a key piece of evidence taken from the scene of a crime????

really?


:waitasec:

Well, I agree with LE not doing that, but......

What if the cleaning crew had been the ones to initially find some message written on the closet wall, and they tipped off LE.

I can totally see one of the cleaning crew telling a cousin, who told a neighbor, etc.

I really don't put too much value on this "message" thing, anyhoo, but wanted to weigh in on how a leak might have happened. . JMO


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[LisaCougar]

It's been a month Isabel. Where are you sweet baby girl?

 

[TxLady2]

ok...but come on...do we really think that a dectective is going to tell their big mouthed untrustworthy wife a key piece of evidence taken from the scene of a crime????

really?


:waitasec:

No, I don't. IF they have any integrity and want to keep their jobs, they don't talk about evidence to their wives or girlfriends, their mothers or anybody outside LE, if they think that person can't keep their mouths shut. They may trust their wives, girlfriends or mothers but it can still come back and bite them in the butt if it's leaked. Women love secrets, but they also love to share secrets with other women. Which makes it not a secret anymore. I love that old saying that two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

I don't take things from other message boards as facts. Anybody can claim anything on the internet.

 

[Lava]

Well, I agree with LE not doing that, but......

What if the cleaning crew had been the ones to initially find some message written on the closet wall, and they tipped off LE.

I can totally see one of the cleaning crew telling a cousin, who told a neighbor, etc.

I really don't put too much value on this "message" thing, anyhoo, but wanted to weigh in on how a leak might have happened. . JMO


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That is really possible! If you choose to google the supposed contents of the note you will find that two different people claim LE told them this, so we would have not one but two leaks of the same information.

I do think the "note" is known by reporters and is real, but they've been asked to keep it quiet?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

One way a perp could have gotten Isa out with out waking anyone or Isa screaming is if he cloroformed her, knocked her out while he got her out.

He also could have applied duct tape over her mouth and wrists.

I dont think we ever learned how Westerfield was able to enter the Van Dam home and go to the second floor where Danielle was sleeping to remove her from her home and didnt leave one shred of evidence of any kind that he had ever even been in that home.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

In order for this all to work to believe a stranger took Isa, many assumptions have to be made:

1. we have to believe three dogs didn't bark
2. we have to believe the stranger knew where Isa slept (if her curtains were closed)
3. we have to assume Isa didn't put up a fight.
4. we have to assume the brothers never heard a thing
5. we have to assume sergio and rebecca both sleep very soundly.
6. we have to assume if the dogs did bark, not one member of the house heard them.
7. we have to assume CPS is just separating sergio for stupid reasons.
8. we have to assume the 911 call was just a fluke and sergio is a cool cucumber.
9. we have to assume the neighbor is wrong about voices and barking dogs because no criminal would abduct in the wake of dawn.
10. we have to assume the parents passed a poly.
11. we have to assume the "Hit" was a scent dog hit of a stranger; not a cadaver dog hit.

See, in order to fit a stranger, we would have to make all these assumptions and, imo, we can't base a theory of stranger abduciton and elimate the parents on this many assumptions.

Many of those assumptions were also not believed in other cases even though it turned out the parents didnt harm their child or even knew the stranger that had taken them. Even though they did have dogs, even though there were adults in the home that heard nothing, even though their child did not put up a fight, even though not a shred of evidence was left behind by the real prepretrator who had entered the family home.

IMO

 

[TxLady2]

If it were not locked.

Most of those gates can be opened from the inside with a latch, but not from the outside. It's not a lock exactly. He could have climbed over the wall, entered through the window but exited through the gate.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The National Center for Missing & Exploited Children recently changed Isabel's case from endangered missing to non family abduction.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...en_US&orgPrefix=NCMC&caseNum=1193092&seqNum=1

Is this something they do at the advice of LE or is it at their discretion based on information in the media?

Then we have the FBI website that is also quite confusing because we have Hailey Dunn listed as a kidnapping but Haleigh Cummings, Lindsay Baum, Aliyah Lunsford, Kyrion Horman and other children listed as missing persons.

What does it all mean? Is missing person considered possible family involvement? Is kidnapping considered non family involvement? Or am I making too much of the labelling and it really doesn't make a difference?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/@@wanted-group-listing

One thing is for sure, it becomes very frustrating and sad that so many of these cases that we followed...some for months....others for years, remain unresolved and these children are still "missing".

I saw it listed that way very early on. We even had discussions about it listing 'non family abduction.'

 

[~n/t~]

I saw it listed that way very early on. We even had discussions about it listing 'non family abduction.'

Really? I remember seeing it as endangered missing early on.:waitasec:

http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/386...hild-tucson-az-arrizona-usa-pdf-april-23?da=y

http://uqr.me/Missing-Isabel-Celis

 

[Mysterylover]

I think LE knows that the parents know where she is and that she is not alive.
JMO...

Eileen, I suspect the 10 yr.old brother knows/saw 'something', and that is why dad is being kept away from him...

 

[scout35]

Most of those gates can be opened from the inside with a latch, but not from the outside. It's not a lock exactly. He could have climbed over the wall, entered through the window but exited through the gate.

This is what I was trying to say. Thank you!

 

[scout35]

That is really possible! If you choose to google the supposed contents of the note you will find that two different people claim LE told them this, so we would have not one but two leaks of the same information.

I do think the "note" is known by reporters and is real, but they've been asked to keep it quiet?

How do we know it's not the same person posting in two different places?

 

[TxLady2]

In order for this all to work to believe a stranger took Isa, many assumptions have to be made:

1. we have to believe three dogs didn't bark
2. we have to believe the stranger knew where Isa slept (if her curtains were closed)
3. we have to assume Isa didn't put up a fight.
4. we have to assume the brothers never heard a thing
5. we have to assume sergio and rebecca both sleep very soundly.
6. we have to assume if the dogs did bark, not one member of the house heard them.
7. we have to assume CPS is just separating sergio for stupid reasons.
8. we have to assume the 911 call was just a fluke and sergio is a cool cucumber.
9. we have to assume the neighbor is wrong about voices and barking dogs because no criminal would abduct in the wake of dawn.
10. we have to assume the parents passed a poly.
11. we have to assume the "Hit" was a scent dog hit of a stranger; not a cadaver dog hit.

See, in order to fit a stranger, we would have to make all these assumptions and, imo, we can't base a theory of stranger abduciton and elimate the parents on this many assumptions.

I would agree with all but #10. Guilty people have passed polys and innocent people have failed polys. They are not proof of anything.

 

[Lava]

How do we know it's not the same person posting in two different places?

I really don't want to go too much into it, because the sites aren't allowed. But it is 2 different people.

 

[nursebeeme]

The National Center for Missing & Exploited Children recently changed Isabel's case from endangered missing to non family abduction.

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...en_US&orgPrefix=NCMC&caseNum=1193092&seqNum=1

Is this something they do at the advice of LE or is it at their discretion based on information in the media?

Then we have the FBI website that is also quite confusing because we have Hailey Dunn listed as a kidnapping but Haleigh Cummings, Lindsay Baum, Aliyah Lunsford, Kyrion Horman and other children listed as missing persons.

What does it all mean? Is missing person considered possible family involvement? Is kidnapping considered non family involvement? Or am I making too much of the labelling and it really doesn't make a difference?

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/kidnap/@@wanted-group-listing

One thing is for sure, it becomes very frustrating and sad that so many of these cases that we followed...some for months....others for years, remain unresolved and these children are still "missing".

they actually changed it early on from non family abduction to endangered missing

http://www.missingkids.com/missingk...seNum=1193092&orgPrefix=NCMC&searchLang=en_US

it still says endangered missing.

The reporter brought up at an early presser that if the family had not been cleared why did the poster say non family abduction and it was changed within a few hours if not quicker than that.