AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #19

[liz b.]

Do we know for sure that Becky arrived to work early, and if so what do her co-workers mean by early - early as in a few minutes or half an hour? I have heard some say her shift started at 7 and some at 8 - which one did we determine is accurate?

Also, when co-workers say she arrived early, did they mean she was working the early shift (as in the morning shift as opposed to the later shift) or did they mean she was actually for HER shift?

When Becky stated in her 911 call that she went to work at 7, I understood that to mean that she had the 7 o'clock shift, not that she left the house at 7. Since she lived fairly close to TMC if she left at 6:30 that would allow for driving and parking, as well as signing in or whatever she needed to do before her shift began at 7.

Also, has it ever been said what her mood was like that morning at TMC and where was she when she received the phone call from Sergio telling her to come home?

TIA to anyone who has the actual information that has been confirmed - it's confusing with all the different times being circulated.

AFAIK, only one of her co-workers mentioned that RC came to work "very early" that morning. IDK about any other co-workers commenting on her arrival time...JMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

If i am correct, didn`t LE want to keep the search within 3 mile radius? This makes me believe that Isa was taken around 630am when the neighbour heard male voices. Because by 7 RC was at work. Leaving half hour to drive and dispose of Isa or to transfer her to someone else? I just don't understand why LE was having that 3 mile radius before thinking of contacting Mexico. Maybe the neighbour saw more then what she is saying to the news. Maybe she told police something else? But they can't convict on just her word and are investigating more on that time line. JMO

LE usually starts out with a 3-5 mile radius from the place the person was kidnapped from and then they will widen out like they did in this case to about a 20 mile radius and if nothing is found they will once again come back within the 3-5 mile radius making sure they havent missed anything.

Most bodies are found within a 5-10 miles radius from where they went missing. Although bodies that were found within that radius were not always found by searchers or LE who were looking for the victim but were stumbled upon by a passerby that happened to be in that remote area at the time....sometimes it is years after the disappearance of the victim.

And once they spread out the radius they also contacted the Mexican authorities.

IMO

 

[bluenoser]

Things like that do happen, unfortunately. I can't understand a responsible parent doing something like that, but then every now and then something like that comes along and it astounds us.
There was a case close to here several years ago. A man accidentally left the baby in the vehicle while he was working. His wife normally dropped the baby off at daycare, but for some reason it fell to him that day, and between home and his workplace, he forgot he had the child with him. When he returned to his vehicle after work, he found the baby dead, still in the car seat. The man was devastated, of course.

I thought about this theory as well. At a ball field, kids roam around and what not, maybe she got in the car by herself and just fell asleep.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

I was just reading the Sierra Lamar thread and someone posted that local gossip is that Sierra's dad was/is involved with the drug cartel and they took Sierra as payback.

Yes I know they have arrested a man in connection, just posting what this poster said.

Sound familiar? For some reason, local gossip always goes straight to the drug cartel. That is why I tend to not believe such rumors. IMO.

FWIW, my guess is that the cartel connection is likely a regional thing for those who live in states that border Mexico. Living in Michigan, a drug cartel connection never entered my mind with regard to Isabel's disappearance mostly because her parents did not seem like the type of people who would be involved in activity that might bring danger or harm to their children.

While Michigan borders Canada, I have never heard anything about rigorous drug/gun activity with our friendly neighbors to the north. Crossing into Canada from Detroit to Windsor or Port Huron to Sarnia is carefully monitored, and anyone trying to enter Canada or the US at these points must present proper ID. If passengers or the vehicle seem suspicious, the car will be asked to pull out of the crossing lane for inspection. Drug and/or gun smugglers wouldn't get too far - trust me. :moo:

 

[time]

FWIW, my guess is that the cartel connection is likely a regional thing for those who live in states that border Mexico. Living in Michigan, a drug cartel connection never entered my mind with regard to Isabel's disappearance mostly because her parents did not seem like the type of people who would be involved in activity that might bring danger or harm to their children.

While Michigan borders Canada, I have never heard anything about rigorous drug/gun activity with our friendly neighbors to the north. Crossing into Canada from Detroit to Windsor or Port Huron to Sarnia is carefully monitored, and anyone trying to enter Canada or the US at these points must present proper ID. If passengers or the vehicle seem suspicious, the car will be asked to pull out of the crossing lane for inspection. Drug and/or gun smugglers wouldn't get too far - trust me. :moo:

You might be surprised...

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/new...th-american-drug-cartel-arrests-20110325-wpms

"They were individuals from South America, cartel members specifically, that had targeted Michigan, made it a business decision," said Bouchard.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]18 With Ties to Sinaloa Drug Cartel Indicted in Detroit [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] - Alleged to have distributed between 100-300 Kilos of Cocaine a Month for Years in Metro Area-[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1] -87 year old Leo Earl Sharp Was Main Drug Carrier-[/SIZE][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]March 01, 2012

[/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]http://www.justice.gov/dea/pubs/states/newsrel/2012/det030112.html[/SIZE][/FONT]

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[luvmydogs]

I was just reading the Sierra Lamar thread and someone posted that local gossip is that Sierra's dad was/is involved with the drug cartel and they took Sierra as payback.

Yes I know they have arrested a man in connection, just posting what this poster said.

Sound familiar? For some reason, local gossip always goes straight to the drug cartel. That is why I tend to not believe such rumors. IMO.

I agree with you 110%! I believe the local media and political environment has everyone all up and arms about the drug cartels and smuggling. We also have a Governor who made the comment that "heads' had been found in Arizona. That was proven to be false. No one has been decapitated here in Arizona. Not like they do in Mexico, where they will hang the bodies and allow innocent people to see them, to scare them.

I'm born and raised in Tucson and I have never had any issues. Needless to say I live in a safe area, and we have changed some things about our lives. For instance we use to drive down to Nogales (border town) and just walk around, have a cheap good meal, and a drink, but we don't do that anymore. I did go recently for some funerals, and wasn't scared, but I was with locals there and it was in daylight.

Now tell me a case were the cartel in the US has kidnapped a child? I haven't heard of any cases. You can google, and we have had many cases of multiple millions of $$ of drugs confiscated. Anytime I hear that, I always tell my co-workers, "opps, looks like we'll find a body in the desert soon". They kill themselves but never have I heard of family members. Also you can google "home invasions", these criminals come in with their automatic weapons and they don't care if children are there. They will point their guns at all members of the family. But the only case were they killed a child, was actually the leader of a white supremacist from Arizona. It wasn't anything to do with a drug cartel from Mexico. The home invasiors come in with automatic guns blazing, they don't quietly sneak in and take someone.

Now for that theory to hold any water for me, then I have to imagine that the Celis family would have to be involved with lots and lots of $$. Here in tucson, it is the stop for drugs from Mexico to other parts of the country. But we don't deal in small peddly stuff, we are talking loads of hundreds of lbs of marijuana and millions of $$$s (google and you will see the quanties I am talking about). So it just doesn't add up to me that SC was a big time dealer. Yes, it appears they were overextended and living beyond their means. But more like many families in the US. Not lavishly, they had one nice car (lexus), but SC's car was a normal car. They also didn't have their children in private school. I also think if they were involved, they both wouldn't be working, and I doubt SC would be singing opera! Good lord, the cartels would have a field day with him. If they were involved, the practical side of me says, they would own their own business, to easily launder their money. You can't launder money from a paid job.

This is all my opinion and I enjoy hearing everyones theories. I read something and then change my mind completely around.

Isa I pray today is the day you come home!

 

[dallasnc]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mL2YDw&usg=AFQjCNFt0XMugu-mcnhIB_YBwMAkpe8WQQ

above is a link to a child kidnapping for drug debt. I should have said for money stolen.

 

[winterrose]

I think the problem with people suspecting drug involvement to an abduction, besides the fact it's close to the border, is because there are either drug records of family or extended family. Possibly with JM getting the warrant taken to the Celis home twice in December might make people believe there is a drug involvement somewhere. I suspect something else, but I see where others could be suspicious about this.

 

[time]

Same kidnapping on NG discussed

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1205/03/ng.01.html

 

[Taminator]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mL2YDw&usg=AFQjCNFt0XMugu-mcnhIB_YBwMAkpe8WQQ

above is a link to a child kidnapping for drug debt. I should have said for money stolen.

The thing about the Cole Puffinburger case is the kidnappers sent a note months before he was kidnapped warning the family something would happen if they didn't get their money back. They also ransacked the home and tied up the mother and her boyfriend. These people, drug cartel members, don't do things quietly. They don't sneak into a home and take a child without leaving some kind of message (whether it be by a note, ransacking, or harming another person in the home).

I guess it's just my opinion, but if you are knowingly or even connected by mistaken identity to a drug cartel and your childs life is at stake, wouldn't you kind of not do things like, attend public vigils, attend public Little League games, attend public concerts, or allow your child to attend public school?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think the problem with people suspecting drug involvement to an abduction, besides the fact it's close to the border, is because there are either drug records of family or extended family. Possibly with JM getting the warrant taken to the Celis home twice in December might make people believe there is a drug involvement somewhere. I suspect something else, but I see where others could be suspicious about this.

First, I know absoltutely nothing about drug cartels but it seems to me that if someone knew they owed these people money and had been threated to pay up or else they would make sure that their family remained as safe as possible.

Imo, they wouldnt take a chance of being so prominent in their community and visably seen all the time. And they would make sure they had dogs like aggressive pitbulls not mixed breed poochies and they would make sure they had a very sophisticated alarm system that was always armed.

I just dont see any evidence that this family was into drugs, buying or selling, They seem to be a close knit family who is very involved and supporting their chldren in sports activities and other activities since the boys also sing Opera. .

They sure didnt live in a big fancy home. Their home is very typical of a lot of homes today that are owned by middle class working people all across our country.

IMO

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

You might be surprised...

http://www.myfoxdetroit.com/dpp/new...th-american-drug-cartel-arrests-20110325-wpms

No offense, but I have zero regard for Fox news coverage, nationally or locally. Faux News is politically-charged, highly biased, and borders on sensational tabloid journalism. :moo:

 

[time]

While I do not think the drug cartel thing is probable, I think it is possible and not some outrageous idea.

Also, there could be many different possibilities, not just kidnapping or the someone sold drugs, etc.

The fact is, drug cartels have really stepped up their influence both in Mexico and the US so it is ever changing. They are kidnapping more children/student for ransom in Mexico, recruiting more children at younger ages (11- 17) including in the US (link), branching out as far as the crimes they commit and so on.

I don't think any organized crime elements should be underestimated as far as their influence in the US. It's big business and difficult for authorities to curtail.

So, I'm hoping we don't poo poo all talk about the possibilities, but remain conscientious that it might not be extremely probable. And, it certainly isn't the simplest explanation and I wouldn't rely on rumors said to be coming from law enforcement about it unless someone can chuck up specifics.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The thing about the Cole Puffinburger case is the kidnappers sent a note months before he was kidnapped warning the family something would happen if they didn't get their money back. They also ransacked the home and tied up the mother and her boyfriend. These people, drug cartel members, don't do things quietly. They don't sneak into a home and take a child without leaving some kind of message (whether it be by a note, ransacking, or harming another person in the home).

I guess it's just my opinion, but if you are knowingly or even connected by mistaken identity to a drug cartel and your childs life is at stake, wouldn't you kind of not do things like, attend public vigils, attend public Little League games, attend public concerts, or allow your child to attend public school?

That is what I thought. If these cartels are so ruthless they would want it known loud and clear and send a message it was because a drug debt wasnt paid. Dont they do it this way because they want others forewarned about what will happen to them too if they mess with the cartel?

Imo, word would be out by now if it truly was connected to a drug cartel and LE would have made some arrests by now. There are always snitches who are a dime a dozen that know what is happening in the town and they are more than willing to rollover on someone to save their own pathetic azz.

Every arrest that has involved drugs in my local area LE had an inside informant.

IMO

 

[time]

No offense, but I have zero regard for Fox news coverage, nationally or locally. Faux News is politically-charged, highly biased, and borders on sensational tabloid journalism. :moo:

Well, I agree on that, but there are a lot of other articles about drug cartels in Michigan so why dismiss it out of hand? Google "drug cartel Michigan" or "drug cartel Utah" I just picked out one of many articles.

 

[FrayedKnot]

http://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/aug/31/signs-in-arizona-warn-of-smuggler-dangers/?page=all

http://www.abc15.com/dpp/news/regio...can-drug-cartels-now-control-parts-of-arizona

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=10995661

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/11/0...l-member-caught-with-16m-in-drugs-in-arizona/

http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE7230L320110304?irpc=932

 

[winterrose]

There's also the point when anyone that's living or have lived in the home have had drug involvement, there's shady people around them, whether it's family,friends, dealers or acquaintances. I mean can they really trust the other druggies? One might be a SO, or someone who owes a drug debt, you just never know. Except for the CPS thing, which might not have anything to do with what happened to Isa that night, there's not enough info given out to look into it. LE is holding this so tight, it could surprise all of us what they have in mind. I'd love to see an officer carrying Isa into the police station.

 

[BetteDavisEyes]

Well, I agree on that, but there are a lot of other articles about drug cartels in Michigan so why dismiss it out of hand? Google "drug cartel Michigan" or "drug cartel Utah" I just picked out one of many articles.

I believe you, time, but the subject of drug cartels is of little interest to me, especially as a possible connection to Isabel's disappearance which is the only reason that I'm mentioning it. While the results aren't scientific, so far only 1 vote out of 106 total to date has been cast in favor of a drug cartel link on the Isabel Celis Poll.

If and when there are charges filed in this case, and we learn much more than we now know about what happened to Isabel and who's responsible, some of us will be eating crow for one reason or another. I'm thinking about trying out some new recipes over the holiday weekend

Mods: Any chance that we could get a "crow" smiley? Pretty please, with whipped cream on top :cupcake:

 

[Jules71]

Re: the blanket that was removed from the red car - what did it look like? Was it the Mexican type blanket hanging over the couch that is shown in the picture of Isa jumping on the couch? (I think someone posted a screen shot from a video.)

 

[luvmydogs]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...mL2YDw&usg=AFQjCNFt0XMugu-mcnhIB_YBwMAkpe8WQQ

above is a link to a child kidnapping for drug debt. I should have said for money stolen.

Awesome story! But my point exactly, they took him at gunpoint and over $millions of dollars.

I just think cartels are just so gun slapping happy, they wouldn't secretly take her. They would go in with gun a blazing. JMO and what I've read in our local area how they handle home invasions.