AZ - Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 - #24

[oceanblueeyes]

So if Isa is buried somewhere due to something that happened in the family home and the family is desperately trying to keep all that covered up, you want them to continue to lie and scream for someone to find Isa and bring her home safe? Is wasting yet more resources running in a false direction a good thing to do?

Isa is most likely deceased and buried somewhere. It's important to work with what is an evolving reality. She's most likely never coming home.

At the end of the day, this is a legal family matter between police and the Celis family. This is not a case about a kidnapper who is a danger to children in the Tucson area. Public involvement is not needed in this case. If there are any doubts about this, contact the TPD and ask them if there is a kidnapper loose in the community.

Truthfully we dont know if this is a matter between LE and the Celis family or not.

I remember in the Greone case in about two- three weeks all local searches had stopped unless it was from a tip called in and then they would follow up on it.

The national media dropped the kidnapping story of Shasta and Dylan two weeks after they were kidnapped when Natalee Holloways case bumped them off and they were given no airtime after then. And even the local press was waning in their news articles. It went silent until 7 weeks after they had been kidnapped and that was only because JED brought Shasta back home alive.

The CdL police never once came out and warned the community that the children in the community could be in danger from a stranger pedo on the loose but they didnt do it in the Lunsford case either.

A lot of police will not warn the community. Maybe they know the parents have enough sense to watch their children closely now that this has happened to Isa and other children as well. I wouldn't need LE to tell me to watch my children closely if this happened in my community.

Heck they even had the audacity to come out and say the Husted parents were targeted implying it was someone they knew yet when the real murderer was finally caught he did not know them at all and he had also been breaking into other people's homes too leaving the community at risk.

So not warning the community doesnt impress me. I have seen them hold back on that in other cases when the suspect turned out to be a total stranger and turned out to be a violent ex-felon with nothing to lose.

In the missing person cases I have kept up with if the victim is not found the searches begin to slack off considerably in 2-3 weeks. That is why Sierra Lamars case is so unusual. That case has had more searches than any that I can remember in the recent past here.

Imo, I believe they will not arrest the parents because LE has no evidence either one are involved.

TPD doesnt update us on anything because they have nothing to update at this time, imo. All they have said recently is their investigation has taken them to three different states. That tends to make me believe they are still chasing down leads and they havent panned out.

IMO

 

[mmmagique]

Never said it was. But it is a familial killing and as such, no one else's child is in danger of being killed because of what happened to Kyron. These cases are ones in which a family member or someone in the family circle had direct access to the person who was harmed and is missing. Whether any of the cases were an accidental death, a death caused from neglect, or an intentional homicide, they are not the result of a "bogeyman kidnapper." That is the point.

Considering the fact that the police accused her of attempting to carry out a plot to murder her husband as well, we cannot just assume that. Maybe she only murders family members, or maybe she only murders people she gets very pissed at. (if she murders at all)

In any case, I would like to see people who can dispose of their (alive, dead or dead on accident) children in much the same way the rest of us throw out a McDonald's soft drink cup, pay for the things they have done.

 

[Prof]

Now, why would LE want to stress that? It is totally irrelevant to the investigation.

Two options occurs to me -

1. a public relations exercise - they want the public to know that all departments have been working together as a team since day one;
2. arse-covering for when the truth comes out - they want the public to know that they alerted CPS immediately due to concerns about the Celis children from day one.

I believe it is option 2. LE have no requirement or need to justify why/if/when CPS are involved at all, especially not in a very short statement.

I believe it is far more likely that LE want the public to know there are major concerns in regards to the safety of the Celis children (and naturally this includes Isa), and that CPS have been brought in to help safeguard them, while evidence is being collected for charges to be laid.

:moo:

I see there are many options that could be behind making this statement. The simplest that would fit with all of LE's actions so far, would be their desire to be as forthcoming as possible. Knowing that CPS would not make a public announcement about a voluntary arrangement, and rather than simply letting the press find out and "read too much into it," LE decided to announce this development with that disclaimer.

I did hear this press conference that I provided the link for, and I prefer to take his statement in context rather than as a sound bite; therefore, I am going with the option that he knew there were people who would "Read too much into this," and that is why he qualified this new CPS development with the fact that CPS has been involved all along as a matter of standard procedure.

LE has stated over and over again that they will not give out any information that is sensitive to the investigation. They have been up front with information that they could provide. I am not here to slight TPD. I trust them. They have been clear, straightforward in this case. They are the only source that I count on.

 

[Madeleine74]

Considering the fact that the police accused her of attempting to carry out a plot to murder her husband as well, we cannot just assume that. Maybe she only murders family members, or maybe she only murders people she gets very pissed at. (if she murders at all)

In any case, I would like to see people who can dispose of their (alive, dead or dead on accident) children in much the same way the rest of us throw out a McDonald's soft drink cup, pay for the things they have done.

People who were in danger because of Terri Horman: Kyron & Kane (and maybe the young daughter)

People who are now in danger because of Terri Horman: none we are aware of. Kane has a restraining order & TH has been outed for her plans, the daughter is kept away, and if TH makes a move, LE will find her.

TH hated her husband and her stepson. Who else's kids are in danger today because of TH and has LE put out a notice to the community about this danger? We're talking about kids here, not some adult she has a vendetta against.

--------------
ETA: As for the punishment part of your comment, if LE can determine what happened and find evidence to prove it, then there will be punishment for it. The laws remain and breaking the laws will result in criminal prosecution IF there is evidence to convince a jury. No one wants a child (or any law abiding member of society for that matter) to be harmed & discarded and I'd agree that just about everyone, except for the perpetrator, wants the guilty person to be properly punished. It's up to the proper agencies to investigate and amass evidence. The public will have to watch & wait.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

If there's any doubt that these kinds of cases do go away, notice that no one is obsessing over these unresolved missing kid cases. What do they have in common? The parents (or a step parent) are suspected of being involved, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it in a court of law.

- Sabrina Aisenberg (1997)
- Madeleine McCann (2007)

and more current cases:

- Kyron Horman (2010)
- Lisa Irwin (2011)
- Haleigh Cummings (2009)

Unfortunately, most cases end up fading away, no matter what the circumstances are. There are new sensational cases every week, that it's so difficult for any case to have longevity in the media. The media definitely treats all these cases like products on an assembly line.

 

[SapphireSteel]

I see there are many options that could be behind making this statement. The simplest that would fit with all of LE's actions so far, would be their desire to be as forthcoming as possible. Knowing that CPS would not make a public announcement about a voluntary arrangement, and rather than simply letting the press find out and "read too much into it," LE decided to announce this development with that disclaimer.

I did hear this press conference that I provided the link for, and I prefer to take his statement in context rather than as a sound bite; therefore, I am going with the option that he knew there were people who would "Read too much into this," and that is why he qualified this new CPS development with the fact that CPS has been involved all along as a matter of standard procedure.

LE has stated over and over again that they will not give out any information that is sensitive to the investigation. They have been up front with information that they could provide. I am not here to slight TPD. I trust them. They have been clear, straightforward in this case. They are the only source that I count on.

Who is slighting them?

 

[mmmagique]

People who were in danger because of Terri Horman: Kyron & Kane (and maybe the young daughter)

People who are now in danger because of Terri Horman: none we are aware of. Kane has a restraining order & TH has been outed for her plans, the daughter is kept away, and if TH makes a move, LE will find her.

TH hated her husband and her stepson. Who else's kids are in danger today because of TH and has LE put out a notice to the community about this danger? We're talking about kids here, not some adult she has a vendetta against.

We have no way of knowing who may or may not be in danger. This isn't your average everyday, 'the guy just needed killing' type of case.

I feel that every child that is disappeared, is everyone's business. The community should have even more of an outcry and demand for justice than we already do, imo. There are just too many children being disappeared for me to take the stand that it's a private matter between police and the missing child's family.

 

[GrainneDhu]

They could start by begging and pleading with anyone that will listen for her to be brought home safe. Shouting it from the roof tops if they had to.

Does that ever work? I can't recall a single US case where the family's pleas seemed to make one whit of difference.

In fact, I am always a little worried about such pleas because it is known that some perps actually increased their sense of power by watching the coverage of such pleas. I think that for such perps, pleas like that may actually increase the likelihood that they will strike again.

So given the unlikelihood of such a plea actually doing any good vs the known possibility that such a plea increases the sense of power in some perps, I'd be inclined to tell a family not to make such pleas.

 

[GrainneDhu]

If there's any doubt that these kinds of cases do go away, notice that no one is obsessing over these unresolved missing kid cases. What do they have in common? The parents (or a step parent) are suspected of being involved, but there isn't enough evidence to prove it in a court of law.

- Sabrina Aisenberg (1997)
- Madeleine McCann (2007)

and more current cases:

- Kyron Horman (2010)
- Lisa Irwin (2011)
- Haleigh Cummings (2009)

You could also add Jaycee Dugard to that list. Her stepfather was considered a suspect in her disappearance.

Of course, Jaycee was finally rescued and it turns out her stepfather had nothing to do with it.

 

[GrainneDhu]

The state has a legal obligation to its citizens, but the state is not going to educate, clothe, feed, and medicate a deceased child. And that's what we're talking about here. The state represents the people's interests and are given power to enact and carry out laws to protect citizens and/or punish citizens who are not in compliance with the laws.

No individual has the right to storm into the residence of where one of the Celis family members is living and scream for them to spill the beans on where Isa is located. Sure, many would like to, but the laws protect everyone, like it or not.

It is not a matter for the public to solve. It is legally in the jurisdiction of the state and the state's representatives. At the point it's been determined there is no danger to the public with a bogeyman kidnapper running around Tucson (which really is what people should be concerned about that actually applies to themselves), the rest is up to agencies of the state to legally prove what happened, if they can.

I'm not asking this with snark, I truly don't know the answer: are you suggesting that Isa's thread should be shut down and no further discussion about her case take place?

 

[GrainneDhu]

Truthfully we dont know if this is a matter between LE and the Celis family or not.

I remember in the Greone case in about two- three weeks all local searches had stopped unless it was from a tip called in and then they would follow up on it.

The national media dropped the kidnapping story of Shasta and Dylan two weeks after they were kidnapped when Natalee Holloways case bumped them off and they were given no airtime after then. And even the local press was waning in their news articles. It went silent until 7 weeks after they had been kidnapped and that was only because JED brought Shasta back home alive.

The CdL police never once came out and warned the community that the children in the community could be in danger from a stranger pedo on the loose but they didnt do it in the Lunsford case either.

A lot of police will not warn the community. Maybe they know the parents have enough sense to watch their children closely now that this has happened to Isa and other children as well. I wouldn't need LE to tell me to watch my children closely if this happened in my community.

Heck they even had the audacity to come out and say the Husted parents were targeted implying it was someone they knew yet when the real murderer was finally caught he did not know them at all and he had also been breaking into other people's homes too leaving the community at risk.

So not warning the community doesnt impress me. I have seen them hold back on that in other cases when the suspect turned out to be a total stranger and turned out to be a violent ex-felon with nothing to lose.

In the missing person cases I have kept up with if the victim is not found the searches begin to slack off considerably in 2-3 weeks. That is why Sierra Lamars case is so unusual. That case has had more searches than any that I can remember in the recent past here.

Imo, I believe they will not arrest the parents because LE has no evidence either one are involved.

TPD doesnt update us on anything because they have nothing to update at this time, imo. All they have said recently is their investigation has taken them to three different states. That tends to make me believe they are still chasing down leads and they havent panned out.

IMO

UnderlineBM

I agree! Police statements as to the safety of the community are generally worthless in my opinion.

For one example: there's two cases I have been following since they happened in 1982 and 1984: Johnny Gosch and Eugene Martin. They were two paperboys for the Des Moines Register who were kidnapped from the Des Moines Iowa suburbs (my home state, hence the interest).

After Johnny Gosch was kidnapped in 1982, the paper he was delivering did consult with police. They were assured there was no danger and they need not ban young teenagers from carrying the paper (a morning paper). So the paper made no changes in policy or practices, based on those assurances.

Sadly, the police were wrong in their "no need to worry" approach. Two years later, another Des Moines Register carrier was kidnapped in a close to identical manner.

Johnny Gosch was 12 years old, but tall for his age; Eugene Martin was 14 years old, but slight for his age. In pictures, they look to be the same age.

There have been no credible sightings of either.

The police still haven't said that the two disappearances are related... but this time, the Des Moines Register decided to take action without seeking out the advice of the police.

Another case where police vigorously denied that there was a predator loose was the Robert Pickton case; he had killed close to 50 prostitutes in Vancouver before community outcry forced police to finally admit that maybe there was a predator loose.

 

[MBK]

People who were in danger because of Terri Horman: Kyron & Kane (and maybe the young daughter)

People who are now in danger because of Terri Horman: none we are aware of. Kane has a restraining order & TH has been outed for her plans, the daughter is kept away, and if TH makes a move, LE will find her.

TH hated her husband and her stepson. Who else's kids are in danger today because of TH and has LE put out a notice to the community about this danger? We're talking about kids here, not some adult she has a vendetta against.

QUOTE]

IPSO facto, if such a person MARRIED AGAIN, they might *disappear* the kiddies . . .

 

[MBK]

Decades ago, on the road where I live, there was a young (early teenage, I believe) girl abducted and then KILLED in a brutal manner. This killing has never been solved. I was very young at the time. Probably, the perp is dead or perhaps too old to do what he did again. Nevertheless, when I am visiting my parents and I look out the window and see a young girl walking down the road, something in me dies. And I want to say "what are her parents THINKING to let her walk down the road like that, X was walking down the road when she was taken. THAT perp may be long gone, but parents should always take care with their children. I mean, in the doc dump, someone had called and left a tip about a little girl with a backpack walking down a road somewhere near a Wal-Mart, sort of stumbling. I gather the police didn't find her. Who was that little girl. If you ask me, she's a potential target. So, maybe "Chorus Line Daddy" isn't a threat to anyone but his sons, but . . . . that doesn't mean that parents shouldn't be vigilant.

 

[Madeleine74]

We have no way of knowing who may or may not be in danger. This isn't your average everyday, 'the guy just needed killing' type of case.

TH, while likely guilty of doing something heinous to Kyron, and having allegedly conspired against her husband, is not out prowling the streets in search of kids to kidnap. Technically anyone could be a danger to society at any given time, but that's not the point. I hope TH is someday prosecuted for what she did to Kyron and I hope it's sooner than later, but TH is not a random kidnapper, and Kyron was harmed by a familial member (stepmother), not a random bogeyman.

I feel that every child that is disappeared, is everyone's business. The community should have even more of an outcry and demand for justice than we already do, imo. There are just too many children being disappeared for me to take the stand that it's a private matter between police and the missing child's family.

I said legally. I never said private. It's terrible when harm befalls any child and it's even worse when a family covers it up to avoid prosecution and pretends the crime has been committed by someone else. And that is a scenario that LE obviously believes is viable in this case. Isa wasn't snatched off the street. The crime happened inside the home. Comparing Isa's case to other cases where children were randomly snatched when they were outside their home doesn't provide any insight to this specific case, because this case is most likely a situation in which a familial member harmed Isa and she wasn't kidnapped.

Other than demand justice and pray, what else can the public do at this point to aid the investigation?

 

[white rabbit]

why wasn't the padres game on their calendar?

http://bringisahome.com/upcoming-events/

 

[Madeleine74]

You could also add Jaycee Dugard to that list. Her stepfather was considered a suspect in her disappearance.

Of course, Jaycee was finally rescued and it turns out her stepfather had nothing to do with it.

Nope can't add Jaycee to the list of "children who were harmed by a family member and the crime was covered up." Jaycee was snatched off the street, specifically at her bus stop, regardless of what police thought the first few weeks.

 

[cityslick]

Nope can't add Jaycee to the list of "children who were harmed by a family member and the crime was covered up." Jaycee was snatched off the street, specifically at her bus stop, regardless of what police thought the first few weeks.

Wouldn't a more accurate thing to say is that in a vast majority of these cases (probably over 95%), the parents of a missing child are always suspected until some evidence or another suspect clears them? Whether they are guilty of an actual crime or not?

I'm curious what the magical age is for that not to be an automatic (parents as a suspect). 14? 18?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Nope can't add Jaycee to the list of "children who were harmed by a family member and the crime was covered up." Jaycee was snatched off the street, specifically at her bus stop, regardless of what police thought the first few weeks.

And because LE wrongly thought her stepfather was a suspect they did not warn the community even though LE knew she had been snatched off the street.

IMO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

TH, while likely guilty of doing something heinous to Kyron, and having allegedly conspired against her husband, is not out prowling the streets in search of kids to kidnap. Technically anyone could be a danger to society at any given time, but that's not the point. I hope TH is someday prosecuted for what she did to Kyron and I hope it's sooner than later, but TH is not a random kidnapper, and Kyron was harmed by a familial member (stepmother), not a random bogeyman.

I said legally. I never said private. It's terrible when harm befalls any child and it's even worse when a family covers it up to avoid prosecution and pretends the crime has been committed by someone else. And that is a scenario that LE obviously believes is viable in this case. Isa wasn't snatched off the street. The crime happened inside the home. Comparing Isa's case to other cases where children were randomly snatched when they were outside their home doesn't provide any insight to this specific case, because this case is most likely a situation in which a familial member harmed Isa and she wasn't kidnapped.

Other than demand justice and pray, what else can the public do at this point to aid the investigation?

I certainly hope TPD isn't that narrowmind. They did say they have researched other missing children cases similiar to Isa's circumstances.

That was the problem in many other cases where children were taken from their own bedrooms. LE was so honed in on those parents and family members at the time that they forgot to look for the real suspect who had actually kidnapped/raped and murdered them.

I see no evidence that shows me TPD is locked into this one theory though. Maybe they saw the other police agencies' mistakes that were made early on in other same like cases and are keeping an open mind.

 

[buggsmom]

The point I was making was a simple one. When a child is killed and if it's a result of something that happened inside the home, there will be coverups.

Information is not going to be told by the family because then someone in the family will be sent to prison, even if it was an unintentional death. The cases grow cold because the people who know what happened and know where they buried the family member aren't going to tell!

I listed a few cases as examples only, not intended to be an exhaustive list and not to get others to make lists, but to illustrate the point.

BBM

- Kyron Horman (2010)
- Lisa Irwin (2011)
- Haleigh Cummings (2009)
- Aliayah Lunsford(2011)
- Ayla Reynolds (2012)
Hasanni Campbell
Lindsey Baum-2009

Adding
Sky Metalwala (2012)

...Keeping these missing children in the forefront of our minds and hearts with hopes of finding them, justice for them and peace for those that loved them.