Found Deceased AZ - Isabella Grogan-Cannella, 8, Bullhead City, 2 September 2014 - #3

[winterrose]

Winterrose, clicking the "Reply With Quote" button will include a quote of the post to which your are replying. ;-)

Perhaps .. but what was done to Isabella could just as easily have been done by a non-criminal friend who was capable of committing child abuse [someone with a druggie, thief, non-child-crime assault criminal record does not automatically conclude to that someone being a child kidnapper, (assumed) molester and murderer].

How many cases are there where a child of a stand-up and law-abiding family was abused or murdered by a seemingly-stand-up and law-abiding close friend or acquaintance of the family, a friend who by all accounts was friendly and well-respected in the community? BTK is one extreme example.

This has been the point I had been trying to make in my earlier posts in these threads.

It's not always so obvious, is it? The one that threw me is Jessica Ridgeway who was walking to school, and the teen who was a college student picked her up. I never would've suspected that.

 

[tier]

BBM, True and while she may not be winning any mommy awards, bashing her has taken the place of bashing the actual PERP in this case. JR is getting almost no talk about him at all, other than where he was at what time and how TG allowed him to be there. Yes, TG is a TOS violation , but JR is the perp!!!!!!!!!!
BBM 2 ! But apparently not inside the grandma's room

I think that is because JR has given us no comments to work with but for the one post after the event and LE has not given us any info from the time he was rearrested. We have his rap sheet we've speculated on and the info TG gave us about the pets he strangled. We've looked for any charges to do with that. And speculated whether an older restraining order had to do with his own children as it was for minors. We've talked about his just getting out of rehab. He sounds bad. If he murdered Bella he is a total monster. But even his motive is speculation. We don't know if it was a sexually motivated crime, a murder done in a temporary rage, revenge killing etc at this time.

In the meantime we have TG in our faces talking not about sweet Bella but about herself and JR. We are using what we have to speculate and piece together our theories until we get more info, IMO.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

BBM

I'm guessing if the imprisoned suspect was out on bail, and gave interviews daily, told us what a great babysitter he was, and was posting on SM, our thread would even out on posting content.

In that case it would seem appropriate (calling out on JJR) but in the case of TG, IMO, it is not. She has not been named a POI, a suspect, nor has she been charged (*yet* is a possibility). The FBI is playing a role in this case .. I respect their talent and thoroughness that has been demonstrated in other cases. If there is a *there*, there, I trust the FBI would find it. Nothing has been reported on that as of yet....

 

[Magdalyn]

Deleted by me....

 

[Krystine]

BBM, True and while she may not be winning any mommy awards, bashing her has taken the place of bashing the actual PERP in this case. JR is getting almost no talk about him at all, other than where he was at what time and how TG allowed him to be there. Yes, TG is a TOS violation , but JR is the perp!!!!!!!!!!
BBM 2 ! But apparently not inside the grandma's room

I am wondering if this forum might not be the place for pages and pages of parent bashing. Or "perp" bashing for that matter. This is a think tank of sorts, not a place to debate the age old topic of "good" and "evil".

 

[Krystine]

RSBM

So since a child could 'just as easily' die in any old car accident, with seatbelt on, parent abiding all laws, sober, as a child could die when his parents drove drunk with their kids unbuckled and not in cars seats.....no increased risk in one scenario over another, no responsibility from the second group, anger towards them unjustified?

We aren't discussing how she could 'just as easily die', we are discussing exactly how she did die. In a flop house inhabited by drug addicts and felons and at the hands of a felon drug addict who was embraced by the family with similar life circumstances.

Do you contend children living in flop houses among felons and drug addicts are at no increased risk for violence and neglect than children living in a drug and felon free home? The risk level for violence, abuse, and neglect is exactly the same in bother environments?

No one is going to win this one. ChuckMaureen is sympathetic and supportive of the mom and lifestyle, and many of us are outraged that one more child has been let down due to drugs, the mental instability that accompanies drug use, lifestyle choices... No side is going to convert the other to their way of thinking...IMO

 

[ChuckMaureen]

bbm

I think that is because JR has given us no comments to work with but for the one post after the event and LE has not given us any info from the time he was rearrested. We have his rap sheet we've speculated on and the info TG gave us about the pets he strangled. We've looked for any charges to do with that. And speculated whether an older restraining order had to do with his own children as it was for minors. We've talked about his just getting out of rehab. He sounds bad. If he murdered Bella he is a total monster. But even his motive is speculation. We don't know if it was a sexually motivated crime, a murder done in a temporary rage, revenge killing etc at this time.

In the meantime we have TG in our faces talking not about sweet Bella but about herself and JR. We are using what we have to speculate and piece together our theories until we get more info, IMO.

An important aspect to note is that TG was attacked / defamed from the very beginning .. and I'm guessing her personality lends her to not backing down from a fight (after all, it seems she's been fighting to survive for much of her life, right or wrong decisions, et al.). I know many blame TG for what happened to Isabella. At this point, there is no evidence that she knew JJR was even capable of doing such a thing and even JJR's family and best friend are surprised at the turn of events. Given what I've seen so far, I do not blame TG for what JJR did to Isabella. I blame JJR. And I do not blame TG for defending herself. And the reports of TG roaming the area, eating out and even .. wait for it ... *smiling*, what should we expect? That she kill herself from grief? I would not expect that from a 'street-toughened' individual, I am extremely familiar with the type.

It also appears TG is at least equally 'street-tough-tude' if not moreso than a she is 'mother-tough-tude'. She claims to have done everything she could to being a good mother and that might be true in her world, and perhaps was not truly good enough but I believe there was a baseline below which TG would not sink regarding her children as to physical harm. As for the drug lifestyle, SM folk seem to either confirm or accuse (depending on agenda and truthfulness .. are they druggies, too, and afraid TG or even JJR might turn them in?) TG might have exposed her children to drug use and such. It is sad that her uncle basically confirmed the lifestyle was 'normal' to her, as it is all that she ever knew.

 

[Magdalyn]

No one is going to win this one. [snipped by me] is sympathetic and supportive of the mom and lifestyle, and many of us are outraged that another child has been let down. No side is going to convert the other...IMO

You're right.

In cases like this one, my scope narrows down to sympathy and protectiveness for the child, and siblings if there are any surviving. Innocent, vulnerable victims, who have no control over their environment.

 

[SCHMAE]

No one is going to win this one. ChuckMaureen is sympathetic and supportive of the mom and lifestyle, and many of us are outraged that one more child has been let down due to drugs, the mental instability that accompanies drug use, lifestyle choices... No side is going to convert the other to their way of thinking...IMO

Can't beat them, join them !

 

[blefuscu]

Just another case of parents who neglected their children's needs and basically handed them on a plate to a dangerous person. Why was this child not safely tucked up in bed instead of playing hide and seek at 11.30pm?

 

[tier]

bbm



An important aspect to note is that TG was attacked / defamed from the very beginning .. and I'm guessing her personality lends her to not backing down from a fight (after all, it seems she's been fighting to survive for much of her life, right or wrong decisions, et al.). I know many blame TG for what happened to Isabella. At this point, there is no evidence that she knew JJR was even capable of doing such a thing and even JJR's family and best friend are surprised at the turn of events. Given what I've seen so far, I do not blame TG for what happened to Isabella. I blame JJR. And I do not blame TG for defending herself. And the reports of TG roaming the area, eating out and even .. wait for it ... *smiling*, what should we expect? That she kill herself from grief? I would not expect that from a 'street-toughened' individual, I am extremely familiar with the type.

It also appears TG is at least equally 'street-tough-tude' if not moreso than a she is 'mother-tough-tude'. She claims to have done everything she could to being a good mother and that might be true in her world, and perhaps was not truly good enough but I believe there was a baseline below which TG would not sink regarding her children as to physical harm. As for the drug lifestyle, SM folk seem to either confirm or accuse (depending on agenda and truthfulness .. are they druggies, too, and afraid TG or even JJR might turn them in?) TG might have exposed her children to drug use and such. It is sad that her uncle basically confirmed the lifestyle was 'normal' to her, as it is all that she ever knew.

What can I say, your post convinced me! I never knew smiling after talking about holding your murdered daughters decomposing hand (mine was a decomposing granddaughter this last March but thankfully! she wasn't murdered) was physically/emotionally possible. I can only wish I had had TG's strength of character to go on with life within days after my darkest hours. The time I wasted is unforgivable to me now.

 

[mikeysmommom]

I see what you're saying, but I am aware of more than one family whose parents were involved in illegal activity, including family-friends hanging around their house, etc. ...probably not too different from what we are led to believe regarding TG and her family... and that family's children (one girl, two boys) never were exposed to the illegal activity, even when the parents and friends 'partied' in their den or court date discussion, etc. --the children were sequestered to the play room and supervised by a family member (GM) who never participated in the activity in the den. Those children are now fine upstanding adults, as well as are their parents (they grew out of their wildness).

IMO The children not hurt by this type of lifestyle are very few,very rare and extremely lucky.

 

[blefuscu]

I see what you're saying, but I am aware of more than one family whose parents were involved in illegal activity, including family-friends hanging around their house, etc. ...probably not too different from what we are led to believe regarding TG and her family... and that family's children (one girl, two boys) never were exposed to the illegal activity, even when the parents and friends 'partied' in their den or court date discussion, etc. --the children were sequestered to the play room and supervised by a family member (GM) who never participated in the activity in the den. Those children are now fine upstanding adults, as well as are their parents (they grew out of their wildness).

I would suspect that this is the exception rather than the rule!

 

[ChuckMaureen]

RSBM

So since a child could 'just as easily' die in any old car accident, with seatbelt on, parent abiding all laws, sober, as a child could die when his parents drove drunk with their kids unbuckled and not in cars seats.....no increased risk in one scenario over another, no responsibility from the second group, anger towards them unjustified?

We aren't discussing how she could 'just as easily die', we are discussing exactly how she did die. In a flop house inhabited by drug addicts and felons and at the hands of a felon drug addict who was embraced by the family with similar life circumstances.

Do you contend children living in flop houses among felons and drug addicts are at no increased risk for violence and neglect than children living in a drug and felon free home? The risk level for violence, abuse, and neglect is exactly the same in bother environments?

I am not contending that at all. Statistically? Yes, exposing children to drug-abusing individuals is *neglect* and presents with increased-risk. TG is guilty of exposing her children to drug abuse and increasing the risk of harm to her children. But I also believe life is not always a statistic .. outliers exist and who knows, this case could be one.

We do not yet have definitive knowledge of when TG was made aware of JJR's alleged 'strangle' fixation. Regarding TG's comment on JJR 'only recently began exhibiting violent behavior' ..she should have booted his butt from the home ASAP upon that revelation. And for that, TG is guilty.

But she is not guilty of JJR's actions (as far as we know). Did she do something to JJR that triggered him to kidnap, (assumed rape) and murder Isabella? Did Isabella? We do not know.

That is my only contention in this case .. attributing responsibility for a person's *actions* to another, without identifying a causal relation. We have not (yet) been made aware of the possibility.

In this case, the assumed-molestation and murder have not (yet) been directly tied to TG having influenced JJR to commit the crime. JJR might have exhibited strangulation fixation behavior even if he had never abused drugs. And it might be a safe bet to assume it was not TG who turned him on to it (the possibility exists although there is no indication of a sexual relationship having ever existed between the two).

I hope all the details are identified and released to the public. This is a very sad, tragic case and interesting nonetheless.

 

[skibaboo]

What can I say, your post convinced me! I never knew smiling after talking about holding your murdered daughters decomposing hand (mine was a decomposing granddaughter this last March but thankfully! she wasn't murdered) was physically/emotionally possible. I can only wish I had had TG's strength of character to go on with life within days after my darkest hours. The time I wasted is unforgivable to me now.

Very sorry for your loss tier :rose: :grouphug:

 

[3blue1pink]

I can barely eat and certainly cannot sleep knowing that my oldest child will be leaving to live abroad in 5 days . I'm overcome with grief and he's not even gone yet ! Can't stop crying today for some reason . Sigh.... Parents take for granted the joy children bring to the world . It's a tragedy that TG is more concerned with her own well being than admit she was a pathetic excuse for a mother . Sorry , I wasn't going to be negative today but all the excusing of putting kids in harms way because that's the life she knew is making more than I can stand .

 

[tier]

Very sorry for your loss tier :rose: :grouphug:

Thank you skibaboo. We had a few months to prepare. Little Ravenna had trisomy 18 and only had an 8% chance of making it to her 1st birthday and though born 9 days past due date (even the ones that make it usually don't get even near the due date) had died 2 days earlier. It is so heartbreaking though we know she is in a better place happy and whole.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

No one is going to win this one. ChuckMaureen is sympathetic and supportive of the mom and lifestyle, and many of us are outraged that one more child has been let down due to drugs, the mental instability that accompanies drug use, lifestyle choices... No side is going to convert the other to their way of thinking...IMO

I have never claimed to support TG and her lifestyle and never claimed to not feel anger about this case.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

Just another case of parents who neglected their children's needs and basically handed them on a plate to a dangerous person. Why was this child not safely tucked up in bed instead of playing hide and seek at 11.30pm?

Such a shame the other adult in the dwelling was not aware of what was going on 'downstairs'. I can only imagine the guilt that person might be feeling. "If only....", and all that.

 

[ChuckMaureen]

What can I say, your post convinced me! I never knew smiling after talking about holding your murdered daughters decomposing hand (mine was a decomposing granddaughter this last March but thankfully! she wasn't murdered) was physically/emotionally possible. I can only wish I had had TG's strength of character to go on with life within days after my darkest hours. The time I wasted is unforgivable to me now.

I'll ignore the seeming /sarcasm in that post ;-)

My point is, different people grieve in differing ways. There are commonalities, there is uniqueness. Sometimes, that uniqueness might seem very odd or even macabre or there may be underlying psychological or even mental disorder aspects. I am not excusing her behavior. I simply am not judging it at this point. Too many truly unknowns at this point and making a judgement on that behavior does not, IMO, advance the case against JJR ..nor at this moment does it advance a potential case against TG.

In time....