Identified! AZ - Pima Co., WhtFem UP17112, 16-27, found on Mt Lemmon, Apr'72 *Mary Marlovitz

[Giucy]

Diane Marie Webb http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/webb_diane.html?

With the scant info, it is a reasonable possibility

 

[Giucy]

I refer you to the map I posted earlier.

Yes, it was and is a very remote spot. The nearest road access is a dead end road leading to a picnic site several miles to the east.

Reading a map is not my strong suit. So, I believe your word

 

[MelmothTheLost]

Sorry for the obsession, but in those days, do 15yo girls used Avon make-up ? I clearly doubt so

I don't see why not. It wasn't unknown for 15 year old girls at that time to get married. In some respects they were probably more mature than 15 year old girls are today.

I can't see any girl or woman under 18, maybe 21, being an Avon rep, but reps used (and still use) samples like this lipstick as promotional items. If this girl was at the lower end of the age range, say 16-18, and her mother was an Avon customer, it's quite possible the rep might have given her a few bits and pieces to encourage her to become a customer herself when she was older.

Then again, she might have been old enough to have left home and to have been a customer herself.

 

[CarlK90245]

1977 is well after the EDD. She would not had had the Monarch Match Co" matchbox

You're right. I wasn't paying enough attention to the case details.

It is strange that hair and matchbooks would be still there after 25 years.

 

[Romulus]

My first option would be Laurie Allison Smith. She was LKA in Tucson in 1977

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/s/smith_laurie.html

She would be an easy comparison, since her four first-bicuspids were removed when she was younger.

Her thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...son-8-Feb-1977&highlight=Laurie+Allison+Smith

 

[Otterly]

The only woman missing from Arizona on namus that fits the timeframe and age parameters is Diane Webb, missing on 5-6-1959 from Phoenix. The last person to see her was supposedly her husband who gave her money to take a bus “home”. I don’t know if that means to her parents, or what. But, if you did murder your wife, this extremely remote location seems like a place a husband would dump remains. She has DNA according to namus, so I guess she’s a rule out by default.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/15075/196

 

[Romulus]

The only woman missing from Arizona on namus that fits the timeframe and age parameters is Diane Webb, missing on 5-6-1959 from Phoenix. The last person to see her was supposedly her husband who gave her money to take a bus “home”. I don’t know if that means to her parents, or what. But, if you did murder your wife, this extremely remote location seems like a place a husband would dump remains. She has DNA according to namus, so I guess she’s a rule out by default.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/15075/196

Thread

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?178403-AZ-Diane-Webb-18-Phoenix-1960

 

[theshadow45]

The only woman missing from Arizona on namus that fits the timeframe and age parameters is Diane Webb, missing on 5-6-1959 from Phoenix. The last person to see her was supposedly her husband who gave her money to take a bus “home”. I don’t know if that means to her parents, or what. But, if you did murder your wife, this extremely remote location seems like a place a husband would dump remains. She has DNA according to namus, so I guess she’s a rule out by default.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/15075/196

It's strongly believed by her family that she was murdered by her husband, later on in years he reportedly tried to deny that he and Diane were ever married. They were able to prove he was lying as they had attended their wedding and found records of the marriage license as well.

 

[Giucy]

It wasn't unknown for 15 year old girls at that time to get married.

This makes me think about why I thought she was too young for Avon. Cultural bias suck !

In France, in those days, marriage was allowed only beyond 16 years old by law.
Now, and since 2006, you must be 18yo to marry for both genders, unless you are granted a waver from the Republic Attorney (Procureur de la République here). It's how it works here.

So, in my mind, 15 years old was underage to be a rep, even a client for Avon.
If I am right, adult age was 21 in those days. Don't quote me on this last sentence, because I may be wrong.

In France, adult age was 21 years old until 1974, when it was set at 18 years old.

 

[Giucy]

She has DNA according to namus, so I guess she’s a rule out by default.
https://www.findthemissing.org/en/cases/15075/196

Unless UID has nuclear DNA while MP has mitochondrial DNA ! In this case, it won't match because of the different DNA profile.

Unfortunately, they won't check for missing match because of different DNA profile type: as we say here, "money is war's nerve" (l'argent est le nerf de la guerre) !

 

[Giucy]

You're right. I wasn't paying enough attention to the case details.

Unless the LKA date is when the report was filed, while she was missing for much longer.

It is strange that hair and matchbooks would be still there after 25 years.

Sadly, stranger things have happened

 

[Giucy]

Agreed. I assumed that the end date (1959-1965) was dictated by the time the lipstick shade or the matchbooks ceased production, but it would be good to have confirmation of that. No doubt Avon's archivist or historian would know the production dates of the shade.

Snipped for brevity.
Thank you for your info about Avon rep and products !
Here, Avon stopped operating in 2014 because of commercial bankruptcy, so there is no way I can contact them in France.


However, the American headquarters can still be contacted to get the info about the lipstick. I have a pretty busy holiday so to speak, before being back to university (enrolment is not open yet for the folks with September exams, but cautious about this one because uni messed up so often with deadlines I quit counting).

 

[Bit of hope]

15 is too young for the Avon cosmetics.

And from the photo, yes, she is naturally blond.

Hi Giucy, don't sure why you think that about the Avon cosmetics. It's clear Donnis has lipstick on in her picture and was 15. Of course we don't know if it was from Avon, and we don't know UID worked for Avon (could have been a present)

About the hair color...not sure, but you are probably right.

 

[Bit of hope]

Diane Marie Webb http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/w/webb_diane.html?

They have her DNA in Namus and also from Jane Doe.

 

[Giucy]

Hi Giucy, don't sure why you think that about the Avon cosmetics. It's clear Donnis has lipstick on in her picture and was 15. Of course we don't know if it was from Avon, and we don't know UID worked for Avon (could have been a present)

"demonstration tube of "Pagoda" lipstick (Avon)" so, the Pagoda lipstick is from Avon. Written black and white in the case report.
For the present, maybe.
But Avon is a lead for finding out who is UID, no matter who is she actually.

Donnis has lipstick, we don't know which, but I doubt she had Avon lipstick.
1) Avon is only sold through party-plan selling. You must be overage to be a client or a rep. So, a 15yo with Avon is way too young !!
2) If it's a present, why not. But I lean more towards buying it in a store, with her own money. In this case, Avon is the unlikeliest brand of lipstick she would carry because Avon can't be sold in stores.

About the hair color...not sure, but you are probably right.

UID has brown hair and MP is blond. So, not a match.

 

[Giucy]

They have her DNA in Namus and also from Jane Doe.

Yes.

However, there are 2 types of DNA: nuclear DNA and mitochondrial DNA.

Nuclear DNA is found in cell egg, and results in 50%sperm-50%egg. That's the most well known.
Mitochondrial is another story though. More about mitochondrial DNA : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA (I know, I know, Wikipedia :-/ )
This picture sums it up : http://undsci.berkeley.edu/search/imagedetail.php?id=175&topic_id=&keywords=

The fact that both have DNA is not enough.
If you have a MP's mitochondrial DNA while you have IUD's nuclear DNA in the database, it won't match even if they are indeed the same person.
It's akin adding euros with rands for budgeting : won't work because you need to work with the same currency. Or akin giving carrots instead of cabbage...

For a reliable match, you need the same DNA type : either both mitochondrial DNA, or nuclear DNA.

See what I try to explain ?

 

[Bit of hope]

"demonstration tube of "Pagoda" lipstick (Avon)" so, the Pagoda lipstick is from Avon. Written black and white in the case report.
For the present, maybe.
But Avon is a lead for finding out who is UID, no matter who is she actually.

Donnis has lipstick, we don't know which, but I doubt she had Avon lipstick.
1) Avon is only sold through party-plan selling. You must be overage to be a client or a rep. So, a 15yo with Avon is way too young !!
2) If it's a present, why not. But I lean more towards buying it in a store, with her own money. In this case, Avon is the unlikeliest brand of lipstick she would carry because Avon can't be sold in stores.


UID has brown hair and MP is blond. So, not a match.

Keep calm and an have an open mind. We are not understanding each other right.... yes UID had a demonstration tube of Avon. We don't know if she was working for Avon, I think she was a client or get this test tube as a present. I search all over Internet today for Avon Pagoda, and when it came into production. Old advertisements, vintage stuff on E-bay etc. Still can't make a certain conclusion.....Saw some vintage lipstick Avon Pagoda with a design from even the 30's....I think it's a standard color, no specific advertisement so far from the period UID died. I think it's a color red....nothing to go on....

About Donnis, we can discuss if she was naturally blond or not....we don't know...to little info about this girl and her missing circumstances.

 

[Bit of hope]

Yes.

However, there are 2 types of DNA: nuclear DNA and mitochondrial DNA.

Nuclear DNA is found in cell egg, and results in 50%sperm-50%egg. That's the most well known.
Mitochondrial is another story though. More about mitochondrial DNA : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA (I know, I know, Wikipedia :-/ )
This picture sums it up : http://undsci.berkeley.edu/search/imagedetail.php?id=175&topic_id=&keywords=

The fact that both have DNA is not enough.
If you have a MP's mitochondrial DNA while you have IUD's nuclear DNA in the database, it won't match even if they are indeed the same person.
It's akin adding euros with rands for budgeting : won't work because you need to work with the same currency. Or akin giving carrots instead of cabbage...

For a reliable match, you need the same DNA type : either both mitochondrial DNA, or nuclear DNA.

See what I try to explain ?

Absolutely....I don't know what kind of DNA there is, we can only find out if......

 

[Giucy]

So, it means that the "not a match" is not necessarily because they are not the same person, but because it might not be the same DNA type for UID and MP.

 

[Giucy]

Keep calm and an have an open mind. We are not understanding each other right.... yes UID had a demonstration tube of Avon. We don't know if she was working for Avon, I think she was a client or get this test tube as a present. I search all over Internet today for Avon Pagoda, and when it came into production. Old advertisements, vintage stuff on E-bay etc. Still can't make a certain conclusion.....Saw some vintage lipstick Avon Pagoda with a design from even the 30's....I think it's a standard color, no specific advertisement so far from the period UID died. I think it's a color red....nothing to go on....

No specific ads because they were sold only at selling-parties. No ads is actually very normal ��
For the present, I am not that sure about Donnis.

And for its selling dates, our best bet is calling Avon. I'll do that as soon as I finish dealing with no health coverage in January (and it's a mess)

About Donnis, we can discuss if she was naturally blond or not....we don't know...to little info about this girl and her missing circumstances.

If my memory serves correctly, you didn't dye your hair blond at 15yo.