AZ AZ - Robert William "Bobby" Fisher, Scottsdale, Apr 2001 *FBI Ten Most Wanted*

[Cryptic]

I find it hard to believe that Fisher could have lived off the grid for almost 20 years without being noticed. 1-2 years I'd totally believe, and even 5 years seems sort of plausible, but there reaches a point when it becomes far-fetched.

I used to have your view- but then this well publicized fugitive with alot more acculuratization issues than BK ever had surfaces in small town Texas (and pretty close to urban Texas where he committed his crime. Granted, Said was being sheltered by relatives, but I imagine that he was getting out and not living like a cloistered nun: https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us/fiel...nted-fugitive-yaser-abdel-said-now-in-custody

In the end, most people are not avid websleuth fans and a good many don't watch the nightly news. There can be a difference between being 'noticed' and being 'recognized'. Likewise, the totality of the area could well facilitate the ability of someone acculturated to the life style to disappear:

- BF lives and works on an isolated ranch. The work mainly consists of assisting an elderly rancher who leases government land for a small cattle operation. BF is his only employee. The elderly rancher watches little television and likes BF's company. BF is paid in board, beef and a little cash from the modest cattle sales.

- BF rarely leaves the ranch. When he does, it is to buy groceries / supplies / gas at an isolated store where people stocking up on large quantities of grossly over priced groceries are common. None of the few employees are big news watchers and have little interest in events outside of county.

- The area also has a privacy culture. This does not mean that murders or any criminals are sheltered. Rather, it means that it is impolite to ask even mildy prying questions about somebody who works hard and that well, locally, has not caused any trouble.

In short, once accepted into the area as a "good cowboy" until demonstrated otherwise, BK's biggest danger might be getting tempted to go to a local bar too often and getting recognized by somebody off the interstate.

 

[Ajai Baktar]

One of the investigators said he couldn’t find the rancher who claimed he buried his employee (Fisher) on his property. Also nobody knows who the female is who gave him a ride from the cafe.
His disappearance being so long ago I just doubt he’s still in the area.

 

[mothwings]

I think he parked the car in the Tonto National Forest as a diversion—to sprout decades of theories that he is still in that area, living off the grid or killed himself in a cave.

I think he is in another country.

 

[MM&M]

Does anyone know what kind of back surgery he had?

 

[PommyMommy]

Does anyone know what kind of back surgery he had?

I don't, but haven't been through the entire police report. A witness states that he had "degenerate disk disorder," was on disability from CA due to this injury, and on medication for chronic lower back pain.

See page 97: Robert Fisher police report (documentcloud.org) The next page also mentions "bad knees."

RE timing of the surgery: Robert Fisher: Dead or alive? | CBS 5 Investigates | azfamily.com
“He had the missing tooth, he had the back scar from the surgery that Robert Fisher had years prior when he was in the Navy,” said Heinzelman.

 

[MM&M]

I don't, but haven't been through the entire police report. A witness states that he had "degenerate disk disorder," was on disability from CA due to this injury, and on medication for chronic lower back pain.

See page 97: Robert Fisher police report (documentcloud.org) The next page also mentions "bad knees."

RE timing of the surgery: Robert Fisher: Dead or alive? | CBS 5 Investigates | azfamily.com
“He had the missing tooth, he had the back scar from the surgery that Robert Fisher had years prior when he was in the Navy,” said Heinzelman.

How was it that in all the times I googled his name that never came up? Very frustrating but tyvm!!

 

[nannymo]

Does anyone know what kind of back surgery he had?

Since he walked with a very distinct straight back with his chest stuck out I would guess he had a lumbar fusion with rods and screws attached.

 

[retrometro]

Whoa. Those police documents are a super-interesting find, @PommyMommy. Thanks for posting the link. I just spent an hour going down that rabbit hole and there are a number of interesting things I learned from the documents. (Multiple witnesses thought that Fisher was addicted to painkillers, Fisher was supposedly fascinated with a hermit who lived off the land in N. AZ, Fisher bought water purificaiton tablets not long before the murders, the supposed sighting in Rye the evening after the murders was always of dubious veraciy, but police still took it seriously enough that they asked other witnesses if they'd ever seen Fisher wearing a fedora and investigated whether he had a female companion from the hosptial).

One more reaction: does anyone else find it's odd that most of the people interviewed were quick to defend Fisher as a good family man, and yet at the same time multiple people knew that Mary had kicked him out of the house two years earlier and that he'd spoken of suicide during that time?? I realize that I have 20 years of hindsight (as well as knowing that he's a killer), but if someone I knew did that, I'd defiitely be concerned that they were unwell.

I'd love to know what (if any) evidence authorities have that make them believe Fisher is still alive. I'm guessing they must have some basis for making that claim, because it seems to me there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that would support the idea of him disappearing into the mountains to commit suicide or to lives a hermit.

 

[MM&M]

Since he walked with a very distinct straight back with his chest stuck out I would guess he had a lumbar fusion with rods and screws attached.

ty! I've been reading the whole report-ish; not so much the police evidence documents as to what was input cause the handwriting is messy, but all the transcribed interviews.

I am having trouble figuring out who/when each interview was, I wish they would at least use initials so that I could go back to the original report then skip to the supplemental transcript.

I'm planning to do a podcast episode, is it OK for me to post a link to it when I am done? I don't know the rules of the server so don't want to break them. (No sponsors, ads or any other mention of $)

 

[MM&M]

Whoa. Those police documents are a super-interesting find, @PommyMommy. Thanks for posting the link. I just spent an hour going down that rabbit hole and there are a number of interesting things I learned from the documents. (Multiple witnesses thought that Fisher was addicted to painkillers, Fisher was supposedly fascinated with a hermit who lived off the land in N. AZ, Fisher bought water purificaiton tablets not long before the murders, the supposed sighting in Rye the evening after the murders was always of dubious veraciy, but police still took it seriously enough that they asked other witnesses if they'd ever seen Fisher wearing a fedora and investigated whether he had a female companion from the hosptial).

One more reaction: does anyone else find it's odd that most of the people interviewed were quick to defend Fisher as a good family man, and yet at the same time multiple people knew that Mary had kicked him out of the house two years earlier and that he'd spoken of suicide during that time?? I realize that I have 20 years of hindsight (as well as knowing that he's a killer), but if someone I knew did that, I'd defiitely be concerned that they were unwell.

I'd love to know what (if any) evidence authorities have that make them believe Fisher is still alive. I'm guessing they must have some basis for making that claim, because it seems to me there's a lot of circumstantial evidence that would support the idea of him disappearing into the mountains to commit suicide or to lives a hermit.

Absolutely especially the water purification tablets, I'm trying to find out how many there were and how long/how much water they'd purify.

Also for someone who had that much and that bad of back pain, tent camping seems like something he wouldn't be able to do...?

It is interesting that people seem so split on suicide vs disappearance; it seems like close to 50/50

 

[nannymo]

He was such an arrogant, controlling person.......that is why I think he is still alive.

He was too important to commit suicide. He loved himself too much to commit suicide.

If he was going to commit suicide, why take out money and why not just kill yourself with your family?

Why go to all the trouble he did just to go off and kill yourself? I think he is still out there hiding in plain sight.

 

[retrometro]

He was such an arrogant, controlling person.......that is why I think he is still alive.

He was too important to commit suicide. He loved himself too much to commit suicide.

If he was going to commit suicide, why take out money and why not just kill yourself with your family?

Why go to all the trouble he did just to go off and kill yourself? I think he is still out there hiding in plain sight.

Just a guess: I’ve seen some sources hint the idea that Fisher may have been delusional enough to believe that the gas explosion would successfully cover the murders and thought he could claim it was a tragic accident. So according to this theory, Fisher hung out in Gila County for a few days and then killed himself once he saw/heard media coverage and realized his ruse wasn’t going to work.

I agree he was super-arrogant and not inclined to accept responsibility for his actions. But the fact that he appeared to have a physiological dependency on painkillers and couldn’t walk for long distances due to his back pain seems to work against the idea that he survived in the Gila County wilderness long-term.

Like I said upthread, if authorities have specific evidence that leads them to believe he made it out of Gila County alive, I wish they would give some idea of what that evidence is. I would hate to think that he’s been kept on the FBI Most Wanted list all these years simply because SPD didn’t want to admit that they didn’t handle the search properly. (Supposedly they didn’t search the caves near Young as extensively as they could have and never coordinated with the San Carlos Apache PD despite the proximity of the SUV to the reservation).

If he is alive, I go back to the idea that he somehow made it to Mexico or South America and is able to get health care there under an assumed name.

 

[PommyMommy]

Absolutely especially the water purification tablets, I'm trying to find out how many there were and how long/how much water they'd purify.

Also for someone who had that much and that bad of back pain, tent camping seems like something he wouldn't be able to do...?

It is interesting that people seem so split on suicide vs disappearance; it seems like close to 50/50

Unfortunately, Popular Outdoor Outfitters in Scottsdale where RF purchased the water purification tablets was closed. Retail Corridor: Popular Outdoor Outfitters closes several Valley stores | Business | eastvalleytribune.com

However, we know that he bought two bottles at $5.99 each back in 2001. Amazon currently sells Potable Aqua Tablets for $7.29 each - 50 tablets per bottle. Amazon.com : Potable Aqua Germicidal Water Purification Tablets : Camping Water Purifiers : Sports & Outdoors

Receipt for RF's purchase of the tablets on 4/9/2001:

Source: Pg 120 of the police report

So, best guess is that he had 100 tablets.

Two tablets are required to treat 1 quart of water. They do not have an expiration date but shelf life is dependent on storage conditions. More information here: FAQ: Potable Aqua with PA+ Drinking Water Germicidal Tablets

ty! I've been reading the whole report-ish; not so much the police evidence documents as to what was input cause the handwriting is messy, but all the transcribed interviews.

I am having trouble figuring out who/when each interview was, I wish they would at least use initials so that I could go back to the original report then skip to the supplemental transcript.

I'm planning to do a podcast episode, is it OK for me to post a link to it when I am done? I don't know the rules of the server so don't want to break them. (No sponsors, ads or any other mention of $)

You will a moderator's approval before posting the podcast here. Good luck!

Reference: Deceased/Not Found - CO - Kelsey Berreth, 29, Woodland Park, Teller County, 22 Nov 2018 - #18 *ARREST*

 

[PommyMommy]

respectfully snipped for focus

If he is alive, I go back to the idea that he somehow made it to Mexico or South America and is able to get health care there under an assumed name.

I think this is a viable theory. Admittedly, I have still not made it through the entire police report (I will eventually!) but as far as I have read, everyone who had camped or hunted with him said they never knew him to bring along or use water purification tablets. This suggests that he is not in any of the areas he was known to hunt, fish, and camp... MOO

 

[MM&M]

You will a moderator's approval before posting the podcast here. Good luck! @PommyMommy

How do I do that? Is there a specific mod for this thread that I can reach out to directly or just message the mods option (that I know is available but at this moment in time can't see on my small screen)

Additionally, I have NO idea what the protocol is for quoting people from a thread; I do not want to fail to give credit to people but am unsure about how to say it.

I'm very excited about doing this episode and am very grateful to everyone here for all the help, suggestions, resources etc. I definitely feel much more knowledgeable and prepared than before, so again a HUGE tyvm to everyone here and this thread will for sure get a shoutout on the episode and shownotes/resources.

 

[annemc2]

This is going to sound kind of bonkers but I think it's relevant to Fisher's physical condition and abilities. I've been doing a lot of personal research into the mind/body connection and the neuroplasticity of pain pathways.

Chronic back pain typically is not causing actual progressive physical damage. The pain, which is very real and designed to be protective, is created in the brain and reinforced by the belief that certain activities (sitting, bending, etc) are causing the pain. I can imagine in a scenario where Fisher is forced into a survival situation that he might be able to "re-wire" the nervous system in an accelerated manner so that the chronic pain is greatly reduced or even eliminated.

I imagine something like his chronic daily life stress where sitting at church or bending over the machines at the cath lab allows him to focus on his back issues. Putting him out in the wilderness where he's running on adrenaline for awhile and forced to push through moderate discomfort, I honestly think his chronic pain condition would get much better instead of hindering or incapacitating him.

I don't remember if he was opiate-dependent but, although unpleasant, withdrawal from opiates is not deadly in itself.

(I know - sounds crazy. Check out the Curable App, Alan Gordon's program on the TMS Wiki, Unlearn Your Pain website by Howard Schubiner, classic works by John Sarno for reference. Was a leap of faith for me as a former healthcare provider but this approach has been instrumental for me in reducing chronic pain and is becoming better studied and more recognized in the scientific study of pain.)

 

[MM&M]

@annemc2 Hmmm, interesting. I don't have nearly enough knowledge on pain/chronic pain to have a valid opinion, but from what I have read he had an injury or destructive disc disease, the injury being severe enough to end his career as a firefighter which he loved doing.

He was also on Valium and percodet and/or percodan, with at least one person believing he was addicted

 

[annemc2]

@annemc2 Hmmm, interesting. I don't have nearly enough knowledge on pain/chronic pain to have a valid opinion, but from what I have read he had an injury or destructive disc disease, the injury being severe enough to end his career as a firefighter which he loved doing.

He was also on Valium and percodet and/or percodan, with at least one person believing he was addicted

Yeah, I'm just making my way through those transcripts this afternoon. They are a gold mine. Reports seem to vary as to his drug use/abuse. Some say he was taking a ton of Valium and opiates while others said they'd never seen him impaired or heard of him using any benzos/narcotics. The person (manager?) at work denied that there was a huge shortage of narcotics after Fisher disappeared and said it would have been difficult (though not impossible) for him to acquire them at work (either skimming from the Pyxis or requesting from colleagues which, man, it would not be worth risking a license to give a co-worker anything controlled).

He seems to have complained about his back/knees at times and did have a verified injury and variable course of pain (e.g. switching from a gym workout to swimming soon before the murders), but some people reported that he was able to get out and hunt, dress, and haul rather large game with no issues.

I have no doubt that he had chronic pain from a back injury - I guess I just don't believe that it would be enough to disable him to the point where he couldn't survive in the wilderness if he was determined enough. I kind of wonder if he was using large quantities of benzos/opiates and somehow lost his presumably easy access during the time leading up to the murders and the rebound/withdrawal symptoms contributed to his simmering rage. The reports of his alcohol use are also really inconsistent. Gonna keep on reading!

 

[retrometro]

@annemc2, I don't think you're bonkers at all. The human body can do surprising things when it's under stress. I remember reading an article several years ago about addiction treatment of military vetarans in the Vietnam era which reached similar conclusions.

I kind of wonder if he was using large quantities of benzos/opiates and somehow lost his presumably easy access during the time leading up to the murders and the rebound/withdrawal symptoms contributed to his simmering rage. The reports of his alcohol use are also really inconsistent.

The same question crossed mind after reading the transcripts . It would certainly explain certain things, like why he snapped without much warning or what led to the argument with Mary the night of the murders. I also wonder whether he had access to any illicit drugs. Pot or hallucinogens would probably have made opioid withdrawal easier for him.

Assuming he did stay in the wilderness of Gila County, I still think the most likely scenario is that he eventually committed suicide or died of natural causes rather than living off the land long-term, But your post convinces me that it's not a total impossibility that he stayed there.

 

[nannymo]

I don't think he stayed there. I think he walked out and caught a ride somewhere and disappeared, but who am I??? Could be totally wrong.