GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #1

[heartfortruth]

First of all I won't hurl anything promise, lol.

After a certain age imo you cannot hold the parents responsible.
I have a brother who is violent, my Mother prays every day for him and it breaks my heart to see the things he does to her. He is 36.
My Mom will not talk about the things he does to her co-workers, she tried for years to get him help, nothing helps him because he will not help himself.
I love him because he is my brother but I sure don't like him or the things he does.

I had a brother who was mentally ill, several diagnoses; actually appears that it was a "classic" onset of schizophrenia but he was also said to be "bi-polar". The family did everything they could to help him with limited resources and limited help from state facilities. He would get hostile at times but would never had really hurt anyone I do not believe.
But I did learn that after a certain age we could not make him get help or have him picked up or committed to a facility unless he consented OR HE DID SOMETHING , HURT SOMEONE FIRST!!
there are so many things I could say about this but I will stop as i certainly do not know what went on in that particular family.
I am SO SORRY for those this young man killed or wounded and for their families and my heart's prayers go out to ALL involved. SO VERY SAD.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Twitter post.

kpho_headlines KPHO.com Headlines
#Phx News - Emergency Bill Passed To Stop Picketing At Girl's Funeral http://snipurl.com/1tne3n

 

[LinasK]

Foxnews reported that Homeland security will be running his name through their watch list and ICE is now helping out.

Was this just pure misinformation, like reporting she was dead???:waitasec: Why would ICE have been helping out when the suspect was an American-born, homegrown terrorist???

 

[Missizzy]

I'm assuming that the contacts with police concerning acting out in his college classes was what was meant when early reports said that Loughner had had numerous contacts with police but no record. Assumably, that's why he was able to purchase the gun.

We've had a number of schizophrenic/mixed state bipolar "type" people snap violently in the last year. Just last week, the Ranier, OR police chief was shot in the head by a young man who knew him. The young man, Daniel Butts (we have a thread), was in his early 20's, very bright, in the company of his sister, and shopping for tires in a shop owned by a man who had known him since infancy. When he started acting oddly, police were called, Butts fought with the chief and shot him in the head with his service revolver. Family has stated that he had been acting more and more erratically in recent months. I found it interesting that his step-father commented that he "used to smoke pot but stopped in August". Well, this is Oregon and we have medical grade (high THC) pot readily available. For a price it can be had anywhere in the country.

I keep wondering if we are seeing an emerging pattern of angry, violent and unstable young men related to a natural presentation of a mental illness, a reaction to a medication, being off meds, the affect of years of taking psychotropics, or some sort of deadly interaction between legal and illegal drugs.

I've raised nine sons, three of whom are formally diagnosed with bipolar disorder (one with Type 2, one with Type 1 Rapid Cycling and Borderline Personality Disorder and one with Type 1 Mixed State--with markers of schizophrenia). I've seen the grandiosity, perseveration, extreme response to a perceived slight or insult, and the tremendous loneliness. All our sons were diagnosed in their 28th year and are our only birthchildren. Our other 11 children are adopted and have a variety of mental health diagnoses but not bipolar or schizophrenia. Bipolar and schizophrenia are certainly hereditary but we've never been able to find a link.

I'm still very very curious about Laughner's communication skills. He's taken years of American Sign Language and speaks in nonsensical ways. The "circular" way of speaking (and thinking) is a waving red flag for both serious bipolar and schizophrenia. It also shows up for those with frontal lobe damage. I read that he dropped out of school but one would think that a psych eval would have surely been ordered by the school. The parents, though, do have a right to refuse. If he had been over 18 at the time of a requested psych eval, he could have refused. I've found not a single comment about his pre-high school years.

I take issue with the official from the AZ Dept. of Mental Health reminding teachers, parents and clergy to get help for those exhibiting signs of mental illness. Where??? And who's going to pay for it? Show us where and how, please. We need more than a 72 hour hold and a month's supply of meds. It takes every mentally healthy person within our large and extended family group to keep our three men on the right path and to continuously advocate for their therapy and their meds. It doesn't sound like Loughner had that support or services or if he did, refused it.

Please understand that I'm devastated by this violence. As a child advocate, however, it's my responsibility to help families know what steps to take when mental illness rears its nasty head. We don't need more "cautionary tales" like the tragedy which has befallen this community.

 

[hockeymom]

If You Think Someone Is Mentally Ill: Loughner's Six Warning Signs

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2041733,00.html#ixzz1AlpMCC9L

Based on these signs and how Jared couldn't even hold it together in public,I find it hard to believe this could come as such a shock to his parents. He probably was even more comfortable at home expressing his thoughts. When you are this far gone,you can't just shut it on and off. The only thing I can think is he just didn't talk and spent most time in his room,otherwise how do you not see the signs? I know that there is nothing you can do about it after the age of 18(something I strongly disagree with. If you are paying for someone's health insurance and college,you should be able to have some sort of say or at least knowlege of their status).
Either the parents were in absolute complete denial or they are completley ignorant to the signs of mental illness.

How long are these reporters going to stlk them? It really is awful. What more do they want them to say?

 

[Nancy2441]

Arizona mental health laws:

ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-540 (A). "If the court finds by clear and convincing evidence that the proposed
patient, as a result of mental disorder, is a danger to self, is a danger to others, is persistently or acutely
disabled or is gravely disabled and in need of treatment, and is either unwilling or unable to accept
voluntary treatment . . . ."
ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(5). "Danger to others" means that the judgment of a person who has a
mental disorder is so impaired that he is unable to understand his need for treatment and as a result of
his mental disorder his continued behavior can reasonably be expected, on the basis of competent
medical opinion, to result in serious physical harm.
ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(6). "Danger to self" means:
(a) Behavior which, as a result of a mental disorder, constitutes a danger of inflicting serious physical
harm upon oneself, including attempted suicide or the serious threat thereof, if the threat is such that,
when considered in the light of its context and in light of the individual's previous acts, it is substantially
supportive of an expectation that the threat will be carried out.
(b) Behavior which, as a result of a mental disorder, will, without hospitalization, result in serious physical
harm or serious illness to the person, except that this definition shall not include behavior which
establishes only the condition of gravely disabled.
ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(16). "Gravely disabled" means a condition evidenced by behavior in which a
person, as a result of a mental disorder, is likely to come to serious physical harm or serious illness
because he is unable to provide for his basic physical needs.
ARIZ. REV. STAT. § 36-501(33). "Persistently or acutely disabled" means a severe mental disorder that
meets all the following criteria:
(a) If not treated has a substantial probability of causing the person to suffer or continue to suffer severe
and abnormal mental, emotional or physical harm that significantly impairs judgment, reason, behavior or
capacity to recognize reality.
(b) Substantially impairs the person's capacity to make an informed decision regarding treatment and this
impairment causes the person to be incapable of understanding and expressing an understanding of the
advantages and disadvantages of accepting treatment and understanding and expressing an
understanding of the alternatives to the particular treatment offered after the advantages, disadvantages
and alternatives are explained to that person.
(c) Has a reasonable prospect of being treatable by outpatient, inpatient or combined inpatient and
outpatient treatment.

http://www.treatmentadvocacycenter.org/storage/tac/documents/standards_-_the_text-_sept_08.pdf

 

[hockeymom]

I'm assuming that the contacts with police concerning acting out in his college classes was what was meant when early reports said that Loughner had had numerous contacts with police but no record. Assumably, that's why he was able to purchase the gun.

We've had a number of schizophrenic/mixed state bipolar "type" people snap violently in the last year. Just last week, the Ranier, OR police chief was shot in the head by a young man who knew him. The young man, Daniel Butts (we have a thread), was in his early 20's, very bright, in the company of his sister, and shopping for tires in a shop owned by a man who had known him since infancy. When he started acting oddly, police were called, Butts fought with the chief and shot him in the head with his service revolver. Family has stated that he had been acting more and more erratically in recent months. I found it interesting that his step-father commented that he "used to smoke pot but stopped in August". Well, this is Oregon and we have medical grade (high THC) pot readily available. For a price it can be had anywhere in the country.

I keep wondering if we are seeing an emerging pattern of angry, violent and unstable young men related to a natural presentation of a mental illness, a reaction to a medication, being off meds, the affect of years of taking psychotropics, or some sort of deadly interaction between legal and illegal drugs.

I've raised nine sons, three of whom are formally diagnosed with bipolar disorder (one with Type 2, one with Type 1 Rapid Cycling and Borderline Personality Disorder and one with Type 1 Mixed State--with markers of schizophrenia). I've seen the grandiosity, perseveration, extreme response to a perceived slight or insult, and the tremendous loneliness. All our sons were diagnosed in their 28th year and are our only birthchildren. Our other 11 children are adopted and have a variety of mental health diagnoses but not bipolar or schizophrenia. Bipolar and schizophrenia are certainly hereditary but we've never been able to find a link.

I'm still very very curious about Laughner's communication skills. He's taken years of American Sign Language and speaks in nonsensical ways. The "circular" way of speaking (and thinking) is a waving red flag for both serious bipolar and schizophrenia. It also shows up for those with frontal lobe damage. I read that he dropped out of school but one would think that a psych eval would have surely been ordered by the school. The parents, though, do have a right to refuse. If he had been over 18 at the time of a requested psych eval, he could have refused. I've found not a single comment about his pre-high school years.

I take issue with the official from the AZ Dept. of Mental Health reminding teachers, parents and clergy to get help for those exhibiting signs of mental illness. Where??? And who's going to pay for it? Show us where and how, please. We need more than a 72 hour hold and a month's supply of meds. It takes every mentally healthy person within our large and extended family group to keep our three men on the right path and to continuously advocate for their therapy and their meds. It doesn't sound like Loughner had that support or services or if he did, refused it.

Please understand that I'm devastated by this violence. As a child advocate, however, it's my responsibility to help families know what steps to take when mental illness rears its nasty head. We don't need more "cautionary tales" like the tragedy which has befallen this community.

Misizzy,so sorry for what you must have to go through ona daily basis. I wish that out of this whole mess,instead of all the political banter,something good will come out of educating and getting help for the mentally ill. It is a "lonely" diagnosis to have. People will rally to your side if you have a physical ailment,but they run when you are mentally ill. Its always one of the 1st programs cut,and even health insurance gets cut off after a certain amount of visits. Its sad,but it appears that everyone dropped the ball when it came to Jared,(maybe I'm wrong and we will find out he just refused help),theypassed him off,hopeing the next person would force him to get help. We really need an overhaul of our mental health system.

 

[Missizzy]

Heartfortruth--You are absolutely correct. It does often take violence or tragedy to access services. For us, it's been attempted suicide or threatened violence. I once stood in a frozen field pushing every "button" I could on one of our mentally ill special needs adopted sons, getting in his face and almost begging him to hit me as police stood in a circle around us. I'd been told that was the only way I could get a 72 hour hold. I was already ill and very frail and am only 5'1". He is a strapping 6 footer and was high on meth. He was threatening to shoot up a whole vial of insulin (he's done it twice before and spent many days in the ICU). One shove onto my backside is all it took. They had him in handcuffs in about 2 seconds. But a 72 hour hold didn't fix him. He didn't improve and get clean and get on appropriate meds until he was ready to--6 years later. He's actually doing quite well now.

When in the ER with mentally ill young adults I also have to admit that I've used the trick of "riling" them up verbally so they'll be held. Usually, it doesn't take much to get someone to trash the room and have security called. No hospital is going to keep someone where their parents are calmly saying, "Hey, we're OK. We can handle this." No, you have to be in crisis and beg for help. And that's a shame.

What an irony that violence is so often the only path to treatment.

 

[Dr. Know?]

Arizona Judges Ordered To Withdraw From Loughner Case


http://www.kpho.com/news/26456405/detail.html?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

 

[Dr. Know?]

This article is clearer. It's only Tucson Judges.

snip

The order from U.S. District Judge Raner Collins said "because a judge has a duty to disqualify him or herself if his or her impartiality could be reasonably questioned" no judges from Tucson would hear the case.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/11/murdered-arizona-judge-called-judicial-emergency/

 

[Missizzy]

I remember fighting for "mental health parity" here in Oregon ten years ago. We still don't have it. It's more like "mental health parody".

The conundrum is that the mentally ill don't choose to be ill, they often won't take their meds or accept treatment, and they are at high risk of harming themselves or others. It's not evilness. It's illness. Punitive measures ie a prison cell never cure a sick person. We've closed most publicly funded treatment facilities. These very sick and extremely volatile people are walking our streets, dazed and confused. WS is filled with literally thousands of threads which literally scream "mental illness". Isn't it time we start taking a much closer look at these tremendously ill people? Hockeymom is right. We run to help the physically sick but run from the mentally sick. Why?

IMO, it's back to the drawing board concerning laws, restrictions, and services. We've failed. Miserably.

 

[angelmom]

What an irony that violence is so often the only path to treatment.​

This may be one of the best posts on this whole board. Something for all of us to think about and remember. Something our leaders and educators should think about and remember.

It isn't just the mentally ill, either. How many times does a woman deal with a stalker or abusive mate or being sexually harassed and NOTHING can be done until there is violence or a very specific threat of violence. What is wrong with this picture?

I'm not trying to blame anyone but the shooter in this case, but when you read about the people who knew that something was not right about this guy, it breaks my heart for that little girl and everyone else who was killed or hurt. Where is the balance between protecting the rights and privacy and independence of citizens and getting them help before it comes to this?

I'm just so sad about this.

 

[newone]

This article is clearer. It's only Tucson Judges.

snip

The order from U.S. District Judge Raner Collins said "because a judge has a duty to disqualify him or herself if his or her impartiality could be reasonably questioned" no judges from Tucson would hear the case.


http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/01/11/murdered-arizona-judge-called-judicial-emergency/

Thank you for this link. It appears Roll highlighted the need for more Judges and Gifford supported his efforts. With immigration issues clogging the courts, it would be unreasonable to step up efforts for border protection without recognizing the need for more judicial staff and judges. This is a very important issue in Arizona. Seems that Roll and Gifford were doing their best to stay on top of the issues. What a loss for all of us.

 

[Dr. Know?]

I don't know if this is a duplicate but here's Loughner's Federal inmate booking. Not much due to being Federal. There won't be camera's in the courtroom or video of what goes on in court. No pictures either even on the booking.

http://www.bop.gov/iloc2/InmateFind...LastName=Loughner&Race=U&Sex=U&Age=&x=47&y=22

 

[gxm]

(respectfully snipped)
It isn't just the mentally ill, either. How many times does a woman deal with a stalker or abusive mate or being sexually harassed and NOTHING can be done until there is violence or a very specific threat of violence. What is wrong with this picture?

This is the same thing that has been running through my mind. These cases remind me of the stalked or abused woman who has to end up dead before anyone will listen to her pleas for help. There has to be something we can do to address these situations before the unspeakable occurs.

(respectfully snipped)
I'm just so sad about this.

Me too. This tragedy is heartbreaking.

 

[songline]

I truelly do feel for these people,but from all reports it sounds like Jared had issues before he turned 18.(alcohol overdose in 11th grade),did they get him help? Also sounds like they imposed their isolationist lifestyle on him as a child,not letting him play with neighborhood children. I'd love to know about his life before high school. There is so much more we need to know to understand how Jared got to this point.

LONG before my daughter was diagnosed, I tried to get her to a shrink, SHE WALKED OUT from several of them. At the time I was not thinking MI at all, I was just thinking she was a bit of a rebel and a little help would be good. She did not want any help then, as she does not allow any help now that she has been diagnosed, it has been years now but the legal system cannot do anything at all about that. Because she has rights.

So even if they did try to get him help it is the LEGAL SYSTEM THAT NEEDS TO BE CHANGED with regard to MI

 

[raisincharlie]

AP is reporting that there was something going on the morning of the shooting between Loughner and his father. His father supposedly chased him into the desert before the shooting.

I have no link, this was just reported by Shepard Smith on Fox - he attributed it to the AP. Will continue to watch for a link. Supposedly Dupnik told this directly to AP. Keep your eyes open about this one.

 

[Dr. Know?]

More warning signs on day of shooting

Note: This story contains offensive language, view at your own discretion.

TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) Authorities are learning new information about the events leading up to the assassination attempt. Sheriff Clarence Dupnik tells the AP that on the morning of the shooting, Jared Loughner's father saw his son take a black bag out of a car trunk.

The sheriff says the father approached Loughner, and he mumbled something and took off running. The father got in his truck and chased his son into the desert as he fled on foot.

more

http://www.kvoa.com/news/more-warni...oting/?utm_source=KVOA.com&utm_medium=twitter

 

[songline]

Based on these signs and how Jared couldn't even hold it together in public,I find it hard to believe this could come as such a shock to his parents. He probably was even more comfortable at home expressing his thoughts. When you are this far gone,you can't just shut it on and off. The only thing I can think is he just didn't talk and spent most time in his room,otherwise how do you not see the signs? I know that there is nothing you can do about it after the age of 18(something I strongly disagree with. If you are paying for someone's health insurance and college,you should be able to have some sort of say or at least knowlege of their status).
Either the parents were in absolute complete denial or they are completley ignorant to the signs of mental illness.

How long are these reporters going to stlk them? It really is awful. What more do they want them to say?

I still ask many of those questions and, was shocked to learn that my daughter is bipolar with a personality disorder. But the truth is you never know what to think, Sometimes when they are rebellious, you do not call it mental illness, you just hope they will agree to go to therapy and outgrow this phase, (that is what I was thinking)
Most of the time, she was a good kid, who grew into a nice person….Now she is angry all the time, especially at me because I had to call 911 on her.
I know people that are in their 60's and are arrogant, rebellious, and think the world threw them a curve ball. However, they are not MI. But sure act out a lot.
NON THE LESS many MI people have the same signs, it is not so easy to diagnose, or even identify, and it only gets worse and worse.

Easier said then done

 

[raisincharlie]

Thanks Dr. Know - I figured someone would find it. Interesting information there.